If the SNP win a referendum on Scottish independence, what do you think the criteria will be for moving there and getting a Scottish passport?

[Kendodd]

I'm English, live in England but love Scotland. If they became independent I would definitely want to move there if at all possible (if they let me). What do you think the rules would be for moving there and citizenship?

Anyway, going back to the premise of the OP and the criteria, I'd have thought it'd be similar to the current Irish and/or Manx criteria.

@GaelicButter this is a submission to committee by Andrew Tickell an SNP supporter and legal academic who has been critical of the bill. It proposes an amendment to bring it into line with English and Welsh laws, which until recently Scotland was behind in terms of hate speech. His amendment is on the last page and will likely be adopted bringing Scotland up to speed with England and Wales.

https://www.parliament.scot/S5JusticeCommittee/Inquiries/JS520HC3799DrAndrewwTickell.pdf

@HappierTimesAhead

Well, this thread has proved one thing and that's just how divided we are here in Scotland. The SNP seek to divide us further. They want to appear woke and progressive but behind it all they are nationalists. That's all they care about. OP, an independent Scotland would be desperate for anyone and everyone they can get. Prepare yourself for the anti-English sentiment though. I moved here as a child (from England) and have lived most of my life here and the anti-English stuff is exhausting, juvenile and petty.

No, Scotland is not like this. Mumsnet is, for some reason, full of people who promote their anti SNP agenda at any given opportunity.

It's not actually true that only a penis can rape btw

It is actually true. In Scots Law and in the law of England and Wales.

[quote kamalasshaman]@GaelicButter this is a submission to committee by Andrew Tickell an SNP supporter and legal academic who has been critical of the bill. It proposes an amendment to bring it into line with English and Welsh laws, which until recently Scotland was behind in terms of hate speech. His amendment is on the last page and will likely be adopted bringing Scotland up to speed with England and Wales.

[[https://www.parliament.scot/S5]]JusticeCommittee/Inquiries/JS520HC3799DrAndrewwTickell.pdf[/quote]
And to bring it more in line with the laws in Denmark, Norway and Ireland aswell.

[quote kamalasshaman]@HappierTimesAhead please feel free to leave if you hate it here. [/quote]
Wtaf?? Yes, it's definitely up to happier to leave the country that she's lived in since childhood because of the exhausting anti English sentiment than for anything to change about that sentiment... That's just what she should expect, hey, coming here, with her tory-loving ways and her strange accent, dissing Haggis and irn-bru and talking about scones rather than scones... The "feel free to leave if you hate being abused" mentality isn't really very welcoming, and does kind of make her point about division. Her experience is no less valid than yours.

Your experience of Scotland is not like this. I have lived here for nearly three decades and it is MY experience. Endless bullying at school and in workplaces for my English accent. Endless 'jokes' and generalisations about the English. And, perhaps the most frustrating thing is the myth peddled that Scotland is so much more welcoming and tolerant than the rest of the UK. Again, this is just not true. Racism is rife in this country. I totally respect your right to support the SNP or any other political party but please do not dismiss my experience just because it is not yours.

NotAnActualSheep thank you

I think the Scots are a tolerant race but a significant minority have a blind spot when it comes to the English and a totally unjustified hatred of people they have never met. All of those idiots at Berwick with flags telling the English to go away in the summer for instance.

but we aren't talking about opening up women's spaces to men. Only to people who identify as women. If they are acting inappropriately they will be breaking existing laws.
The "women with penises" will be a tiny minority of people. Even more tiny will be those with malicious intent. Most likely you will never ever know they were in your special safe women's space because.... they are women!

Gosh! Now you’ve put it like that, what’s the problem!
I feel terrible suggesting , let alone demanding, that biological men go to, I dunno, the men’s toilets.
Shame on me.

@HappierTimesAhead

NotAnActualSheep thank you

I was just about to make it clear that I was agreeing with you, as I realise my sarcasm doesn't necessarily come across in text, and I thought your response may have been to me!

@Elvesaremagic

Scotland spends approx £2,000 per person more than it takes in taxes every year. UK government balances Scotland’s books for it. Think about that. Think very carefully. How is an independent Scotland going to cut 1/7th of its entire budget? Cut 1/7th of the NHS bill, the benefits, pensions and education all at the same time? Try to wring more money from the very few higher rate taxpayers at a time when many businesses will be heading south. Try raising £2,000 in tax from every man, woman and child. It’s all very well believing the SNP’s nice dreams about sunlit uplands, but they are about as honest as Jacob Rees Mogg was about Brexit. There are many people who would happily live in poverty in an independent Scotland, just as Brexiteers don’t mind the situation we are in now because of ‘sovereignty’. Vote however you like but please don’t believe the lies because the reality will be very very different.

Source 🤨

Income tax in Scotland is calculated differently and often earners will pay more tax. If you earn over £25000, you pay 1% more tax AND the higher rate tax band kicks in at a lower income level (£43,430).

Tax rate Earnings Rates £12,500-£14,585 Starter rate 19% £14,585-£25,158 Scottish basic rate 20% £25,158-£43,430 Intermediate rate 21% £43,430-£150,000 Higher rate 41% £150,000+ Top rate 46% You'll be able to earn the same amount before any tax as in the rest of the UK (where the personal allowance is £12,500), but those earning more than £25,158 will pay 1% more tax in Scotland.

Which equates to very little per month. Especially considering what we get in return. The majority of people in Scotland pay less tax than they would in other parts of the UK.

Honestly blown away with people's persistence at putting others off coming here.

Again, op, you will be welcome- the SG actively encourage immigrants to make Scotland their home.

@HappierTimesAhead @NotAnActualSheep I am serious. It's not anti English to suggest that if you really hate Scotland just don't stay here. I'm curious as to why you do.
In reality there are many, many English people who live here and are made very welcome. In fact in some communities pretty much everyone is an English incomer.
You may want to think about the historical reasons why there may be anti English sentiment. The clearances after Culloden and the destruction of the Gaelic culture which some do consider to be a genocide might explain the strong feelings. The constant belittling of any good done by the Scottish government in the English media- not just the SNP, it was the same in the days of Jack McConnell. References to Jock and Och aye the noo, tight skinflints etc etc
Children belted for speaking Gaelic right up until the 70s.
The destruction of the Scottish steel and mining industry by English governments we didn't vote for. The poll tax implemented first in Scotland.
Some reasons

@tanstaafl why do we have men's and women's toilets? Why do women have to queue for hours while men get to use urinals but any men with disabilities have little access to facilities and men with young children can't take them into a men's toilet as there aren't enough cubicles ? Why can't we just all use locking cubicles with sinks and toilets. We share facilities at home. Same with changing rooms and showers, I don't want to show off my body to random people of any gender. We need safe private spaces, not gendered spaces.

@NotAnActualSheep I tried to link to your post but can't as it already contains a quote. Actually everything you've said in it about funny accents, being a Tory, hating irn bru and haggis and pronouncing scones incorrectly, these are the kind of "jokes" belittling Scotland and its people which actually cause hatred and resentment.
It's a shame that @HappierTimesAhead has experienced some anti English sentiment.

But the root cause is being told that you are not good enough because you are Scottish.
Loads of posters on here will remember the two languages described by Chris Guthrie in Sunset Song. There was the fine English spoken Chris who did well at school but she was not the real Chris, the other Scottish Chris linked to the land and dirty, rough farming.
To achieve in Scotland you must be well ( English) spoken, especially as a girl, and keep Scots for the playground. If you can't you will be seen as lesser. You can even pay to send your children to private school so they get the right kind of accent.

That's the kind of thing that leads to division and it gets constantly stoked on Scotsnet.

[quote kamalasshaman]**@HappierTimesAhead* @NotAnActualSheep* I am serious. It's not anti English to suggest that if you really hate Scotland just don't stay here. I'm curious as to why you do.
In reality there are many, many English people who live here and are made very welcome. In fact in some communities pretty much everyone is an English incomer.
You may want to think about the historical reasons why there may be anti English sentiment. The clearances after Culloden and the destruction of the Gaelic culture which some do consider to be a genocide might explain the strong feelings. The constant belittling of any good done by the Scottish government in the English media- not just the SNP, it was the same in the days of Jack McConnell. References to Jock and Och aye the noo, tight skinflints etc etc
Children belted for speaking Gaelic right up until the 70s.
The destruction of the Scottish steel and mining industry by English governments we didn't vote for. The poll tax implemented first in Scotland.
Some reasons

[/quote]
I definitely haven't said that I hated Scotland. Quite the opposite. As I understand happier 's point, she doesn't either. But she hates, in her case, the general underlying anti Englishness that she comes across. In my case, I haven't experienced that, other than general good natured (and two way) teasing, though most of that is from my neighbour who's Welsh. (And I may have started that ). But I live in a large city with a lot of "English incomers" as you put it, as well as a lot of Welsh, Northern Irish, European, American, Australasian and Asian incomers. Its just not a "thing" in the community I live and socialise in, though I appreciate that's different elsewhere.

In any case, I just don't think it's acceptable to say the blame lies with the person being made to feel uncomfortable about their nationality and background. Of course happier could go elsewhere, but there is absolutely no reason why that would be what she wanted, just because some people are being twats and making her feel unwelcome. That is an outrageous suggestion and absolutely wouldn't be accepted about any other form of "teasing" that is only fun for one party.

I don't consider myself English, tbh, though I was born and grew up there. I've lived more than half my adult life in Scotland. I don't see why I can't consider myself British, or European, as I always have. And I know I'm to blame for many things, but I'm not sure even I can be held responsible for post-Culloden injustices, the English media or implementing the poll tax. A member of a 21st century, multicultural welcoming society can't really hold grudges like that and be expected to be let off, because "some reasons". Yes, those things were bad, like the slave trade was bad, and beating children for being left handed or communicating by BSL was bad, but those things aren't generally done any more, even by the English. You can't hold an entire nation responsible for those historical bad acts, though you can support or campaign for those affected by it, of course. But it's absolutely not a reason to make someone feel unwelcome in their home and claim that its their fault in the first place, and they should just leave.

@NotAnActualSheep please feel free to go and state those opinions on Black Mumsnetter threads.
I don't hold @HappierTimesAhead responsible for her experience. I think any English person moving to Scotland or living here must consider the history of colonialism and the way people will feel towards them, particularly those who have been disadvantaged or made to feel bad about being Scottish. It's something to be aware of.
It's not something a French or Spanish or American person would experience here because there isn't that history.

I'm struggling to see what @Happier and a few of the other naysayers really like about Scotland actually. They don't like the people, or the government, or even that it's a separate country. They don't like the progressive laws or the education system or the health service.
What do they stay here? Oh Scotland would be great if it wasn't for the pesky things that make it different from England?
You can't eat scenery as they say.

[quote kamalasshaman]@NotAnActualSheep I tried to link to your post but can't as it already contains a quote. Actually everything you've said in it about funny accents, being a Tory, hating irn bru and haggis and pronouncing scones incorrectly, these are the kind of "jokes" belittling Scotland and its people which actually cause hatred and resentment.
It's a shame that @HappierTimesAhead has experienced some anti English sentiment.

But the root cause is being told that you are not good enough because you are Scottish.
Loads of posters on here will remember the two languages described by Chris Guthrie in Sunset Song. There was the fine English spoken Chris who did well at school but she was not the real Chris, the other Scottish Chris linked to the land and dirty, rough farming.
To achieve in Scotland you must be well ( English) spoken, especially as a girl, and keep Scots for the playground. If you can't you will be seen as lesser. You can even pay to send your children to private school so they get the right kind of accent.

That's the kind of thing that leads to division and it gets constantly stoked on Scotsnet.[/quote]
I'm not sure I understand your point here? DS is being taught Scots this week, and having to write a poem in it. He's been tasked with making a haggis or other Scottish food. He's playing Scottish tunes in his violin lessons. I know there is a great love of irn bru among many "true born Scots". It's not belittling at all. It's recognising and celebrating Scottish culture, surely (well, maybe not the irn bru, which I truly can't comprehend).

The scone thing is much, much more vicious between Devon and Cornwall, or between "the North" (gone) and (interestingly) Sheffield (cone) than between "England" or "Scotland" as a whole country, and that's not a sign of deep seated, colonialist racism. And I've definitely been told "well, you'd obviously prefer the tories" when I criticised something the SNP Scottish Government had done (ummm, no) - though to be fair, I'm not assuming that was because I was born in England.

Of course there are stereotypes and rivalries between different nations and different regions of a nation (Glasgow vs Edinburgh, for example), and no one really comes out well from a "rival" area. But no one sensible really believes the stereotypes hold unless someone proves themselves worthy. I understand in the past there may have been a stigma in speaking Scots, or even with an accent, but that's not true any more. In fact, the Scottish accent is considered friendly and trustworthy - and yes, that may be a stereotype, but it's quite a favourable one. Being Scottish certainly hasn't held back all the Scottish actors, politicians, newsreaders, business leaders, authors and so on and so on.

@NotAnActualSheep I literally made up those criteria for debate in 2 mins.

[quote kamalasshaman]@NotAnActualSheep please feel free to go and state those opinions on Black Mumsnetter threads.
I don't hold @HappierTimesAhead responsible for her experience. I think any English person moving to Scotland or living here must consider the history of colonialism and the way people will feel towards them, particularly those who have been disadvantaged or made to feel bad about being Scottish. It's something to be aware of.
It's not something a French or Spanish or American person would experience here because there isn't that history.
[/quote]
Oh come on. Do you not think telling someone to "go home if you're not happy with the way things are here and the way we treat you" bears any relation to the way anyone else has been treated in the past? Yes, "English people" treated many people very badly in the past. I'm not going to what-about and point out the ways in which other nations weren't blameless either, for various reasons. But that is not the fault of "any English person moving to Scotland or living here" in 2021 and it does not excuse poor behaviour towards any other human, no matter how much grievance i may feel. Maybe I should give the cold shoulder to any French for taking my (possible) land in 1066, or the Germans for bombing my home town in 1941, or anyone from the home counties because my 4th year teacher at primary school told me off for saying "bath" with a Yorkshire accent when I was 8. But I won't, because I recognise that times change and what we have in common now is much, much more similar than the differences our ancestors had... And also, I'm not a wanker.

[quote Travelledtheworld]@NotAnActualSheep I literally made up those criteria for debate in 2 mins.[/quote]
Fair enough! I'd like to add habitual residency to them, please!

(That went well...)

@Fencil just my two pence worth - I've lived and worked all over Europe. I have usually had young interns from all over the EU to mentor and it has been very interesting to compare their skill set and their national educational backgrounds. Without a shadow of a doubt the Scottish kids stood head and shoulders above the rest in terms of critical thought... Ironic but not a sheep in sight boom boom!