If the SNP win a referendum on Scottish independence, what do you think the criteria will be for moving there and getting a Scottish passport?

[Kendodd]

I'm English, live in England but love Scotland. If they became independent I would definitely want to move there if at all possible (if they let me). What do you think the rules would be for moving there and citizenship?

@NotAnActualSheep ...and we feel the same in terms of freedom of movement across the whole of the EU...which is why if the only way to rejoin is via independence then so be it...

@NotAnActualSheep in a normal country you basically study within the context of your own culture for the whole school year. Not for one or two special novelty weeks when we can all joke about haggis and irn bru. You don't "do Scots" if it's your own language, which for most Scottish children it is.
But if they speak it in school they will be judged.
Can't actually expect you to understand this as you are English!!!!

[quote kamalasshaman]@NotAnActualSheep please feel free to go and state those opinions on Black Mumsnetter threads.
I don't hold @HappierTimesAhead responsible for her experience. I think any English person moving to Scotland or living here must consider the history of colonialism and the way people will feel towards them, particularly those who have been disadvantaged or made to feel bad about being Scottish. It's something to be aware of.
It's not something a French or Spanish or American person would experience here because there isn't that history.
[/quote]
I moved here as a child so should I have been expected to understand the 'history of colonialism' before being allowed to enter? Also, my mum's family are all Glaswegian so am I fully English or allowed to claim to be a 'little bit Scottish'?! Also, I never said that I 'didn't like the people'. What 'people'?! My friends, my family, my children who were born here? I love them all. I love lots about Scotland but I find nationalism as a movement to be divisive and dangerous. It's okay that we disagree on this!

@HappierTimesAhead you can claim to be Scottish since you live here. Think that's the point of the thread. But don't be surprised at anti English sentiment, there is a history behind it.
As for nationalists being divisive, they represent at least 50% of the voters. That's not divisive. It's democracy. You can't make it go away by asking me to agree to disagree.

[quote kamalasshaman]@HappierTimesAhead you can claim to be Scottish since you live here. Think that's the point of the thread. But don't be surprised at anti English sentiment, there is a history behind it.
As for nationalists being divisive, they represent at least 50% of the voters. That's not divisive. It's democracy. You can't make it go away by asking me to agree to disagree.
[/quote]
I'm not asking you to agree to disagree, I am stating that we do disagree and that's okay. Democracy is also about respecting other people's opinions. You also make an excellent point about the other 50% who don't support independence.

[quote kamalasshaman]@NotAnActualSheep in a normal country you basically study within the context of your own culture for the whole school year. Not for one or two special novelty weeks when we can all joke about haggis and irn bru. You don't "do Scots" if it's your own language, which for most Scottish children it is.
But if they speak it in school they will be judged.
Can't actually expect you to understand this as you are English!!!!

[/quote]
No, I've said that I don't identify as English. I identify as British and European, so I'd prefer it if you addressed me in that way please.

We're not doing novelty weeks. This is the curriculum. Yes, it's Burns night, hence the Haggis making, but the poem in Scots is a standard thing, alongside literature by Scottish authors and the Scottish music is standard. Social studies topics are very Scottish oriented (vikings, Bruce and Wallace, Scottish islands etc). In art they draw on inspiration by Scottish artists. Maths, German, PE and so on don't have a noticeably Scottish bent, but that's hardly surprising. No one is ashamed to be Scottish or be taught in a Scottish school. I have concerns over the CfE (not in principle, but in the way teachers have not been given proper support in teaching to it) and certain aspects of education (mainly funding related) but definitely not the Scottishness of it. And I'm bloody glad we're not having to deal with fronted fucking adverbials during home learning like the National Curriculum in England.

anon - I'm devastated by the whole brexit thing and loss of EU citizenship. I'd love to rejoin, and when I have the strength will campaign for that, but not at the cost of breaking away from the rest of the UK. I just think we're stronger and stand more chance of making a country more like I would like to see it as part of a union, by sharing a bigger pot of skills and resources, with a shared history and shared, yet distinct, culture. Yes, the current UK government is a shit show, but we're not stuck with them.

OP - I'm really hoping you're not put off from moving! The vast majority of Scots are lovely people, and don't rip you to shreds for being a dastardly colonialist interloper who deserves what's coming to them...

@HappierTimesAhead it's not actually 50% it's a bit more who support independence... a huge amount of people and it's growing.

[quote kamalasshaman]@HappierTimesAhead it's not actually 50% it's a bit more who support independence... a huge amount of people and it's growing. [/quote]
Hehe

@NotAnActualSheep you will need to choose whether you are English or European if Scotland leaves the UK... you won't have the option of Britishness. And actually Britain isn't a country, it's a geographical area.
England won't rejoin the EU even if they have to eat potato peelings and cabbage for ten years as long as the Daily Fail tells them what a great Blitz spirit they have.

@HappierTimesAhead " he he he" posts like these are this probably why you attract anti English sentiment tbh.

[quote kamalasshaman]@HappierTimesAhead " he he he" posts like these are this probably why you attract anti English sentiment tbh. [/quote]
Tbh, you are showing yourself to be quite nasty now. Good to know that I 'attract' abusive comments based on other people's perceptions about my 'nationality'. Also, pretty sure that @NotAnActualSheep and I will continue to identify as British for the rest of our life, thanks all the same

@HappierTimesAhead laughing at people who have a different political opinion = not nasty

[quote kamalasshaman]@NotAnActualSheep you will need to choose whether you are English or European if Scotland leaves the UK... you won't have the option of Britishness. And actually Britain isn't a country, it's a geographical area.
England won't rejoin the EU even if they have to eat potato peelings and cabbage for ten years as long as the Daily Fail tells them what a great Blitz spirit they have.[/quote]
Ha! So you're now telling me my identity is invalid?! I think you're having a bit of a laugh now, really. My passport considers me a British citizen, so that'll do for me at the moment.

If Scotland becomes independent we will have to make a choice as a family, yes, but it's not a choice I want to have to make. And many others will feel the same and lots of skilled people will end up leaving, many unwillingly but feeling they don't have a choice. More skilled people will probably arrive, but they may not, which is a risk Scotland will have to take. Things may well turn out fine, and I hope they do, but I just can't feel that it's the best decision for the people of Scotland or the rest of the UK, which is why I can't see myself as things stand at the moment voting for it. I could maybe be persuaded given the proposal and independent analysis of it, but to be honest I doubt much would change my mind as its largely an emotional reaction. Others may weigh up the risks and potential benefits differently, or have a different emotional response which is fair and I respect that difference of opinion when respectfully expressed, even if I disagree.

@NotAnActualSheep Ireland seen to be doing ok with only a slightly larger population than Scotland

Full member of the EU
Erasmus
MEPs
Commissioner
Close relationship with US (Biden)
Free movement
Internal market and schengen
Native language alive and kicking and respected

[quote kamalasshaman]@HappierTimesAhead laughing at people who have a different political opinion = not nasty [/quote]
Really? Is this really how you view other people's opinions - as "right" or "other and worthy of laughing at". I'm sure that's not who you are.

If that is really what you think, how on earth do you envisage persuading those of us with laughable opinions of your Rightness while you insult us? Or do you not need to because your elections work in a different way to everyone elses? Actually, second thoughts, yes, carry on....

[quote user1471519931]@NotAnActualSheep Ireland seen to be doing ok with only a slightly larger population than Scotland

Full member of the EU
Erasmus
MEPs
Commissioner
Close relationship with US (Biden)
Free movement
Internal market and schengen
Native language alive and kicking and respected
[/quote]
Yes, good for them. Maybe Scotland could do similar in time. I just think we'd be better off in the short, medium and long term not separating from the UK. However, frankly, I'm not that interested in talking about the pros and cons of independence at the moment given where we are. I think we need a bit of a rest and recovery after covid is under control to recover and deal with the fallout from that and brexit. I love living in Scotland, and if politics makes that impossible we'll deal with it at the time. But I hope that's a fair way in the future.

Kamalasshamam: you have explained to an English person on this thread why they shouldn’t be surprised at anti-English sentiment from the Scots due to history and attitudes and I suppose the subtext is that they should reflect on that and not be offended by it.... I wonder if you can see any parallels between that situation and another one - women being wary of male strangers....
Anyhow, I note that you think Mumsnet Scots are not representative of the wider Scottish population and I think your perception is that they are anti independence/ anti SNP. I don’t know about that. If anything I think many of us love Scotland and respect Nicola Sturgeon in particular very much. However many of us just can’t see that there’s any economic case for independence- at least in our lifetimes. Take away anti- English prejudice and a romantic adherence to nationalism, then what’s left?

@EvelynBeatrice being a normal country?

Can we be clear that ‘anti-English sentiment’ is no different from racism. Prejudice against a person on the basis of their group. There are no excuses for it whatsoever.

Anti English sentiment isn't racist as it is directed at people from a country and doesn't identify them as a racial group. It's maybe xenophobic but a bit more complicated. England is a dominant power within the UK and has continuously disadvantaged Scotland in many ways. Sometimes purposely and sometimes not. When you remember the amount of land owned by absentee landlords in the highlands for instance- and so many of them are seen as English ( although many are not).
To be English in Scotland often means you have wealth and power. So anti English sentiment can be seen as a very different thing, it's despising those who hold power over you. You might see the traces of this in the Republic of Ireland too.
Think of King George in Hamilton and how he is portrayed , that's anti English feeling and maybe the best way to explain. He just can't understand why he isn't loved.

If you are reacting to someone based purely on where their accent says they come from rather than who they are as a person you are very much in the wrong.

I've lived in Scotland since 1998 (originally from near London).

Unfortunately I have encountered anti-English feeling on many occasions. It isn't a nice feeling especially when you consider somewhere to be your home. It was ramped up around the referendum which was particularly divisive and amplified any bad feelings. Unfortunately my teenage DCs have also encountered this hostility at times although they were born in Scotland (they unfortunately have English accents which baffles me).

If Scotland became independent, we would consider moving back to England. The grass isn't always greener.

Actually, Kama, the definition of race discrimination in the Equality Act includes discriminating against someone on the grounds of their nationality.

To be English in Scotland often means you have wealth and power. So anti English sentiment can be seen as a very different thing, it's despising those who hold power over you
I think there's a lot to this. There's often a lot of class antagonism tied up in what people describe as "anti-English" sentiment.
I'm English. But I live on a scheme and work as a welfare rights officer. I've experienced "anti-English" sentiment twice in nearly 10 years.

@Swichname

I've lived in Scotland since 1998 (originally from near London).

Unfortunately I have encountered anti-English feeling on many occasions. It isn't a nice feeling especially when you consider somewhere to be your home. It was ramped up around the referendum which was particularly divisive and amplified any bad feelings. Unfortunately my teenage DCs have also encountered this hostility at times although they were born in Scotland (they unfortunately have English accents which baffles me).

If Scotland became independent, we would consider moving back to England. The grass isn't always greener.

I am sorry your DC's have experienced this. This is why it is so damaging to make generalisations about a whole group of people. Your DC's have been at the receiving end of something that has absolutely nothing to do with them and that is deeply unfair. I worry that my DS will have an English accent (despite being born in Scotland) and will also experience this. He is also of mixed heritage so I worry that he will encounter discrimination based on the colour of his skin since this has been the experience of his dad living in Scotland.