If the SNP win a referendum on Scottish independence, what do you think the criteria will be for moving there and getting a Scottish passport?

[Kendodd]

I'm English, live in England but love Scotland. If they became independent I would definitely want to move there if at all possible (if they let me). What do you think the rules would be for moving there and citizenship?

@RoosterTheRoost eh ok

Trans people have equality under the equality act 2010, why the continued fight for more and yes it is the minority but if they get their way the ramifications are huge.
But I do agree that this isn’t for this thread but women should be concerned about their rights being challenged.

I imagine you could just move

EachDubh
I agree with you
I actively oppose SNP now, mainly because of their deviousness and duplicity re. Women's rights but also because of the shitshow they have made of the education system.

I will be a new No vote

If the Scottish Government implements its ideas on gender toilets will be unisex in all new schools. Pupils will be able to use the changing room of the sex they self identify as.

I totally understand why people (OP included) want to move here. It is great apart from the weather and midgies. But it has become a bit of a cliche that those who are pissed off with the current UK government would move here "like a shot" because its a land of milk and honey, with a charismatic first minister who talks the talk and also isn't keen on Boris or brexit or trump.

I find it a bit insulting, honestly, to ignore that over 50% of people voted not to be independent only a few years ago (and I know things have changed, and that makes me very sad) and there are awful things in the country (drug deaths, child poverty, education, public services) that should have been improved over the past decade, by using existing powers, and working with the UK government on reserved matters. But instead they have got worse, with a constant narrative about how they would have been much better if we'd been independent. It just seems such a waste of opportunities and doesn't bode well at all for how they would behave if we were given more powers.

I don't think there's anything intrinsically "special" about Scotland, and surveys (eg Social Attitudes Survey ) suggest that the social attitudes in Scotland and England aren't really that different... Scotland is a bit more socially democratic, but overall both countries have similar opinions as to how society should look, agree that current distribution of resources are unfair and so on. I just don't think that those slight differences merit the split of the countries and I don't think anyone moving here expecting a socialist, european utopia has really thought things through.

I moved to Scotland more or less on a whim, transporting my English qualifications, finding a job with a company working across the UK, albeit gaining experience in the relevant Scottish regulations. I didn't see myself as moving countries - just moving within the UK, albeit to a part with a distinct character and identity. It makes me sad that in the future people may not be able to do that, because I gained so much from it.

kamalasshaman
There is a massive issue in terms of child protection in schools and clubs with the changes being brought in by the Scottish government. Perhaps they don't impact you or concern you but they do concern those of us dealing with risk assessing them. The SNP has a powerful lobbyist group within it with a clear objective and those who oppose are shut down as much as they can.
Unfortunately for me Scitland has lots its chance at independence this time. The one party to lead us is fracturing andi wouldn't be surprised to see stronf politicians like Joanna Cherry breaking off to form a new party.
As for Scotland as a place to live, the people are the same as you find elsewhere really, there is wealth and poverty, hopes and dreams. But great beauty on your doorstep to enjoy.

@EachDubh this is actually nonsense.
There is no difference in the risk assessment required.
Unless you were previously risk assessing for sexual predators?
What is the actual risk of harm on a typical matrix- it's very low and should be possible to mitigate by anyone with an ounce of responsibility.
Do you have a huge written risk assessment for sending boys in to male toilets in case they get attacked? I doubt it.
Also, have you been to a public toilet in France or other EU countries? There is often an open urinal and a cubicle in one unisex toilet. They cope.
It's not a race to the bottom. We can have trans rights and women's rights too. I'm actually proud that Scotland is trying to be inclusive. It's not perfect but laws never are- that's why we have democracy and committed where concerns can be heard.

It's also interesting that you moved here for work, which is fabulous and I hope that would continue after independence.
As an incomer to the country you still have a lot to learn about the history, context and culture of Scotland which up until the early 90s was a VERY different place. Scratch the surface and it still is. That's something you will rarely be included in as an English person in Scotland. The furthest from woke you can imagine and riven by sectarian hatred and Calvinist moralising.
We must work to build a better society and embrace change- we can never go back. It's a very fragile situation. If women can't be allies for any and all who suffer discrimination we too will find ourselves at the jaggy end of the stick in short order.

To return to the OP's point, Scotland needs people. There will be very few barriers to people wanting to live in Scotland.

Kamalasshaman - where have you been? Women are already at the jaggy end of the stick in Scotland as well as elsewhere. I suppose women imprisoned with male rapists who claim to be trans and women who prefer single sex toilets/ changing rooms for various very good reasons don’t count? The new Scottish Hate Crimes Bill protects every other group and its dog, including cross dressers (I’m not joking) but not women. No no it’s not as though schoolgirls aren’t harassed every day or two women a week are killed due to their sex...no no move along, nothing to see here. It’s not as though the Scottish Greens and several other Scottish politicians - we see you - voted against the amendment to the recent bill specifying sex instead of gender to permit sex attack victims to select the sex of their medical practitioner......

@EvelynBeatrice I don't agree that this is a huge issue in society, sorry. In an ideal world I'd love to be able to choose to be treated by a female medical practitioner but this is actually not practical or possible.
Because
It wouldn't be ethical to ask the practitioner what their biological sex was
Sometimes prompt treatment is important for medical or legal reasons and there may not be a biological woman available
All practitioners should be respectful of the dignity and humanity of their patients.

Your whole argument falls into the " All men are predators/ rapists/ paedophiles" trope.
The people who are doing the wrong things are bad people and they will do it whatever the legislation.
That doesn't make the legislation wrong.
You are basically saying the equivalent of " let's not make a rule about masks/ social distance / gathering because some people won't comply"
And these bad things and situations are a TINY number where the bad doesn't outweigh the good.
I hate to say it but the feminist chat boards are often just a cover for some very outdated and middle class attitudes. They don't define feminism or me as a feminist.

And equating femicide and domestic murder with trans people @EvelynBeatrice will you take a thought to yourself!!! Who kills these women? Families, partners..... not random trans people

You are derailing the thread @kamalasshaman

All men are predators/ rapists/ paedophiles has not been said. But it's a fact that almost all predators/rapists/paedophiles are men.

I’m boggling at the suggestion that not wanting people with penises in spaces where women are undressed is a middle class privileged ‘all men are rapists’ attitude, rather than common sense safeguarding and recognition that people sometimes want to be with their own sex for comfort and privacy, even if not safety. I’m afraid that I don’t and never will accept that people who use their male organ to rape women are trans or female and that they should be put in women’s prisons.
Anyhoo the thread has been derailed. On the main point I really can’t see Scotland shutting its doors to the English Welsh or Irish - I’d think there’d be freedom of movement. England is our biggest trading partner apart from anything else.

I’m not equating femicide with trans people! Bizarre offensive suggestion. Trans women and trans men are also subject to higher than average rates of domestic and other violence and its right that the law recognises this. What I was illustrating was the lack of interest from the current administration in protecting non trans females - which is why I flagged that the Hate Crimes Bill covers all other groups perceived to be at a disadvantage under exception of women.

@kamalasshaman whilst you may be comfortable being examined by a biological male many women are not and this current right must be protected especially in consideration for women who have been violently assaulted by someone in possession of a penis and sexual assault is not a middle class issue.

@Selkiesarereal a penis does not = a rapist and to be quite honest if insistence on a biological female examiner rather than someone in the middle of a transition process meant that a rape trial fell through this would be an outrage.
This is such a ridiculously hypothetical question and reflects the level of protest which the UK government will now sink to in its efforts to present the independence movement as woke. Surely no one could want to move to Scotland now in case they are terrified by those dreadful men dressed as women who want to maliciously examine rape victims!
Meanwhile in the real world women get a vicious kicking after every old firm game but yeah, tie yourself in knots over this.

Well, this thread has proved one thing and that's just how divided we are here in Scotland. The SNP seek to divide us further. They want to appear woke and progressive but behind it all they are nationalists. That's all they care about. OP, an independent Scotland would be desperate for anyone and everyone they can get. Prepare yourself for the anti-English sentiment though. I moved here as a child (from England) and have lived most of my life here and the anti-English stuff is exhausting, juvenile and petty.

@HappierTimesAhead please feel free to leave if you hate it here.

a penis does not = a rapist but only penises are capable of rape. And that's the core of this, women will feel safer with other women. By opening up women's spaces to male bodied people, you remove that sense of safety.

It is so difficult for women to speak about their experiences of rape, and to report it. The idea of the medical examination itself is sufficient to deter women from reporting. If we can make that any easier for women we should be doing everything in our powers to do so. Traumatised women should not be a pawn in this game.

[quote kamalasshaman]@HappierTimesAhead please feel free to leave if you hate it here. [/quote]
That feels really unnecessary. I never said I hated it. It's my my home and I love it. I criticised the Government that is currently in power here. I gave my personal perspective and experience of being seen as 'English' here. I honestly think it should be okay to share these perspectives without being told to leave. But in many ways you have proved my point about the division and intolerance.

I'm from a Manx/Scottish background (Manx born), but I've lived and worked in England for decades, benefiting from the Common Travel Area.

My now adult DC were born in England but would hope to be eligible for both Scottish citizenship thorough their Scottish grandparent and for Manx resident status through me, should jobs and affordable housing be more available than in England.

They have fuck all in England now except student debt and lack of employment prospects, despite having worked hard for GCSEs, A levels and degrees, plus having work experience.

Is the nutcase 'hate thought crime' stuff actually going to happen in Scotland, though? I think that might put off quite a few (tax-paying) creative and scientific graduates. What Is the SNP thinking??

@OllyBJolly but we aren't talking about opening up women's spaces to men. Only to people who identify as women. If they are acting inappropriately they will be breaking existing laws.
The "women with penises" will be a tiny minority of people. Even more tiny will be those with malicious intent. Most likely you will never ever know they were in your special safe women's space because.... they are women!
Maybe think how you would feel if someone in your family identified as trans. Would you consider them a rapist or someone to be treated with compassion?
Having this definition is actually really important if we want to avoid medicating children with puberty blockers. Young men and teenage boys who are experiencing trans leanings need to have the chance to live in a female gendered environment, as women, without discrimination.
We should be concentrating on making all spaces safe for everyone- do we need communal changing spaces and toilets, can we design accessible and private areas for all?
It's not actually true that only a penis can rape btw.

@GaelicButter no. Remember we had the anti sectarian legislation. People complained. It was removed. Sectarian offences rose. This is a replacement but actually does very little that isn't already an offence in existing law. It's a bit of a white elephant

@kamalasshaman I don't believe you.