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Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Tiers on my pillow

992 replies

Cismyfatarse · 02/01/2021 23:12

As requested.

Happy to help with home es queries about English up to AH level.

OP posts:
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18
StatisticallyChallenged · 04/01/2021 12:49

Fully outdoor nurseries definitely opened earlier after the first lockdown

icanboogieboogiewoogie · 04/01/2021 12:50

Second Colin MacKay tweet. These leaks have been pretty reliable in the past.

Tiers on my pillow
Bikingbear · 04/01/2021 12:50

Just a thought on nurseries, and clutching at straws.
Is pre-school education a legal right?

Ok I know the legal entitlement to 1120 hours was delayed but are kids still entitled to the 600 hours, preschool education?

School education is a legal right and online is a poor substitute but its doable in exceptional circumstances.

Preschool can't be done online, could that be the reason they are saying nursery will open???

IncludeWomenInTheSequel · 04/01/2021 12:52

Shared this on another thread, it's a good explanation of why the change to the vaccine schedule is actually a good thing, but has been incredibly poorly communicated. It's from Tom Fardon who is worth following on Facebook.

Happy New Year. Vaccine Chat.

A number of people have asked me about the vaccines in the last 4 weeks, particularly in the last week since the guidance on dose intervals has changed: the 4 chief medical officers now recommend that the vaccines are not given at a 4 week interval now, rather they are given 8 to 12 weeks spaced apart.

This is good news in a number of ways. The most important practical thing is that there are only a limited number of vaccines available to give, so from the start of December whenever anyone got a vaccination, their second dose had to be put aside to give to them a month later. Now we can use those 'second doses' to vaccinate more people for the first time - more people vaccinated at all is a good thing.

Vaccines work by generating an immune response to a foreign antigen, in this case COVID proteins (either generated by transcribing injected mRNA, or spliced onto some simian adenovirus), leading to production of antibodies (easy to measure) and memory T cells (hard to measure).

After the first vaccine shot there are detectable antibodies at 28 days - the table below is from the UK Govt website (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca/information-for-healthcare-professionals-on-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca) - the figure is 7,000-8,000 if you care about the numbers. This is comparable to the figures found in people who have had COVID.

28 days after the second shot there are more detectable antibodies - more than 20,000. But if you look at the table, the response actually goes up the longer the interval between the vaccinations: 22k at < 6 week interval; 24k 6-8 weeks; 34k 9-11 weeks; and 63k when the interval is ≥ 12 weeks. There's a rationale for this - the complete immune response is probably not complete until 6 weeks post vaccination; the simian adenovirus vector generates an immune response too, but it wanes so leaving the second vaccination longer means less simian adenovirus antibody, so more exposure to the vaccine, and a bigger COVID antibody response.

Longer dosing schedules lead to improved responses in other forms of vaccine too. The graphs below show that flu and ebola vaccinations generate better antibody responses when given at longer intervals, using a variety of vaccination mechanisms, not just adenovirus vectoring. So although we only have the longer dose interval data for the Oxford/AZ vaccine, not the Pfizer vaccine, there isn't a very good rationale for why the response would be any different.

So is the 7k-8k of antibodies after the first injection "enough". The next graph shows the difference between getting one placebo vaccination and one actual vaccination, in terms of getting COVID - the lines diverge between 7 and 14 days, suggesting that however many antibodies, or T cells, or whatever bit of the immune system is generated, it happens within those first 2 weeks.

The upshot of all this is, if you've had your first vaccine and have just found out that your second vaccine due next week has been postponed, it's good news for someone else who is going to get that vaccine instead, and good news for you that you'll probably be better protected from the booster by having it 8 to 12 weeks later, not 4.

(Here's a great Twitter Thread about all of this from an actual vaccine researcher in Oxford - I have used a lot of his chat in here, you can read his thoughts directly here: https://twitter.com/sandyddouglas/status/1344949258483621888)

Another recent change to the vaccination advice was that the vaccines can be given to people who have food and other allergies. This is another good thing, allowing more people access to the vaccines.

The list of ingredients in the vaccines is very small. The Ox/AZ vaccine has the viral component, then the list of excipients below. L-Histidine is an amino acid, we get it from food, and need it for nerve function. Polysorbate 80 is a plant based surfactant and emulsifier. Ethanol is an alcohol. Sucrose is a sugar. Sodum chloride is table salt. Disodium edetate dehydrate (EDTA) is a chelating agent (it pulls metals out of solution), is found in food, and is at such a low level in this vaccine (less than 1mmol per dose) that it is considered essentially sodium free. Certainly nothing toxic, nothing dangerous, and nothing that hasn't been used before in injectable form.

Other key vaccine snippets:

Both of the vaccines simply present SARS-CoV-2 proteins to the immune system.

There is no live (or dead) virus within either vaccine.
Neither can possibly give the recipient COVID.
The Pfizer vaccine contains mRNA: it does not, and cannot, alter host DNA.

Will the vaccine protect us against new strains? Most likely. The protein antigen in the vaccine is large (in terms of proteins, at least) - the mutations are in only small areas of this large protein. The immune system generates antibodies against lots of parts of the protein, not just the bits that have not been mutated. A good analogy is this - you can recognise your best friend whether they are wearing a hat, or not; the immune system, once primed with the vaccine, will recognise SARS-CoV-2 proteins, just not the bits wearing the hat.

The messages from colleagues in the larger cities in the UK, particularly London, are that there has been an exponential increase in cases and admissions to hospitals. Some London hospitals report there are more patients with COVID that with everything else put together, and 94% of these are cases admitted from the community (only 6% have become COVID positive since being admitted with something else).

What we can do about it is the same as we've been doing so well with over the last 8 months - face coverings, avoiding crowded places (particularly indoors), hand hygeine, social distancing, sticking with it. People infected can be infectious before having symptoms, so don't assume you or anyone else doesn't have it. The vaccine roll out has started, and is accelerating, helped by the new dosing schedule, but we have to dig in and stay the course until there's enough vaccination done. That will take many months, but it will happen. Time to double down.

RaspberryCoulis · 04/01/2021 12:53

1st Feb? Just shoot me now.

tigger1001 · 04/01/2021 12:57

@MamaTookMyEyebrows

Yeah judge I’ve heard anecdotes about people being stopped going over the bridge. I was hoping to head into Dundee (from Angus) today to go to Asda and Home Bargains but now I’m not so sure.
I hope not. I live in Fife and work in Dundee. Not heard of anyone being stopped. Was going to go in today for a few hours, but the roads here are awful so staying in.

Back in from tomorrow though. Have a security fob for my work so hopefully if I get stopped that will prove I'm off to work

anon444877 · 04/01/2021 12:58

I don't think the vaccine strategy change was poorly communicated, all of that was obvious from the R4 interview the retired head of the dept of immunisation did.

Fingers crossed we at least get some uplifting details on the expected roll out plan in Scotland, numbers per week targets etc.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 04/01/2021 13:01

Finally caught back up! Sorry to hear my experience of NHS recruitment is not out of date after a decade.
delays in getting the vaccine out are infuriating Although scotgov won’t want their vaccine % to look bad compared to the other nations so hopefully they will pull their finger out! Or at least have some cunning way to blame someone elseHmm

I’m avoiding struggling by not looking forward; make a plan for tomorrow to make as good a day as I can then do & repeat.

WouldBeGood · 04/01/2021 13:02

I just want them to vaccinate people. Lots and lots of people. Now.

Ebhc · 04/01/2021 13:05

@RaspberryCoulis

1st Feb? Just shoot me now.
And me.
fluffyugg · 04/01/2021 13:06

I could happily take 1st of Feb if that was a definite...when they say 'at least' it makes me want to cry 😢

Bikingbear · 04/01/2021 13:07

WouldbeGood that's exactly how I feel.

Just get their finger out. You don't need years of medical training to do injections, plenty amatures do it daily.
Get massive vaccination centres, bunch of stabbers and a couple of folk (nurses, pharmacists, doctors) that know what to do if someone reacts.

MamaTookMyEyebrows · 04/01/2021 13:09

My dentist friend is waiting to hear if she’ll still be allowed to work. If not they should be firing them all into these vaccination centres.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 04/01/2021 13:09

@WouldBeGood

I just want them to vaccinate people. Lots and lots of people. Now.
Yes Just fucking do it!
Perihelion · 04/01/2021 13:09

I've just done parts of my dog walk, on my hands and knees, to get over the really icey bits Grin. No gratitude shown by the dog...

IncludeWomenInTheSequel · 04/01/2021 13:09

I also live in Fife and work in Dundee, as do most people I know, and I've never heard of anyone being stopped. Wee bit of urban myth there I suspect.

MamaTookMyEyebrows · 04/01/2021 13:10

Yeah could be untrue. I’ve heard these anecdotes third hand so who knows 🤷🏻‍♀️

Bikingbear · 04/01/2021 13:11

@Perihelion

I've just done parts of my dog walk, on my hands and knees, to get over the really icey bits Grin. No gratitude shown by the dog...
🤣🤣🤣🤣🐕
DollyMixtureLulus · 04/01/2021 13:12

The ice is insane! I saw at least three people go flying this morning, although they all thankfully remained upright.

1st of Feb seems a long way away.... Confused

Bikingbear · 04/01/2021 13:14

It's the lack of a concrete back on the 1st that's getting me. The 'at least' makes me think they'll extend again.

DollyMixtureLulus · 04/01/2021 13:15

The 1st is funny date as the Feb mid term is scheduled for the following week.

blowinahoolie · 04/01/2021 13:16

1st February. No!!! Awful. Bikingbear seriously hope your train of thought becomes a reality. Preschoolers really should be starting nursery next week. It's not right that they are missing out like this. I have two DC who should be starting back. Being at home is too much especially with current weather situation. Every minute feels like an hour 😬😫 both of mine thrive at nursery each week - 9 til 3.

MamaTookMyEyebrows · 04/01/2021 13:17

This is a fucking nightmare I feel sick to my stomach today

anon444877 · 04/01/2021 13:20

Thanks for the chuckle @Perihelion - my ungrateful retriever used to love cold weather, the colder the better I had to watch it as he'd yank me out the door in a rush and then look surprised if I fell over.

Ruled · 04/01/2021 13:21

Fuck!!

It's the one thing I can't cope with. I could survive without seeing friends or family, being limited to 500m from my front door for an hour a day, but not schools being closed.

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