If you voted no in the independence referendum...

[HirplesWithHaggis]

...is Brexit changing your mind?

I've seen a number of people on social media (including MN) saying that they voted No in 2014 but would say Yes, or are starting to come round to the idea, in a second indyref because of Brexit. Sometimes it's because of the loss of freedom of movement, sometimes it's because Scotland's Remain vote has been completely ignored (see also Irish border issue), sometimes just the way our MPs are treated in Westminster.

Often it's reluctant, which I can fully understand. Have you changed your mind, are you swithering? Might you be persuaded?

For probably unnecessary disclosure, I voted Yes, and will do again. I am not a member of any political party/group. I'm just curious.

I agree that Scotland is not a homogeneous lump and personally would like to see the UK become a federal state. I'll be honest I was yes before and am now. Talking about independence (or even SNP now) is toxic in real life, I avoid it as much as possible. I feel the same way in that I do support remain but there are criticisms of the EU but I feel like these can't be discussed? ie a lot of discussions don't even happen now because of high emotions
To hijack this thread, why is sturgeon hated in the media/on twitter?

“Not fanciful at all. Many no voters didn’t dare speak out such was the aggressiveness of the Yes message. My area was comfortably No, like pretty much all Scottish areas, yet people daren’t put up No posters in case their windows were put out. ”

It’s awful to someone just typing lies like this. Embarrassing stuff.

“I agree that Scotland is not a homogeneous lump and personally would like to see the UK become a federal state. ”

A federal UK will never, ever, ever happen, ever. To do so you would need to split up England into equal sized chunks. There is no appetite for that, nor will there ever be.

streetwise I say this with a genuine sense of debate rather than trying to be confrontational. It’s comments like your response at 7.49 and the implied attitude therein that really set my teeth on edge. Someone on the “other” side shares their opinion and it’s swiftly dismissed as embarrassing and lies.

Like it or not there were (and I deliberately use past tense here) more No voters than Yes voters at the last referendum. That is a fact. So rather than slag us off - engage with us, listen to us, find out why we voted no - you might not like or understand the responses but they should be heard and then used to inform future debate and discussion from the yes side . When you dismiss no voters as embarrassing liars, you don’t further your cause, you simply reinforce one of the reasons a lot of people voted no. And I genuinely think there’s a lot of us, me included, that are getting more likely to move towards yes views due to Brexit, but you just won’t do it by dismissing us as a bunch of idiots.

(And, FYI, a house in the next street to me, the only one ‘brave’ enough to display a No sign during the referendum, had stuff thrown at the house as a result. No other houses in the street were affected)

More dishonesty. I haven’t slagged off No voters. It is my opinion that claims of intimidation by Yes voters and of No voters being scared to speak are simply lies by the poster above.

That’s my opinion. The person is lying in order to dissemble away from genuine discussion. How come I’m not entitled to express that view?

“To hijack this thread, why is sturgeon hated in the media/on twitter?”

I’m a lifelong supporter of independence and a longtime member of the SNP. I’m not a fan of Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership personally.

As for the absolute vitriol she receives from the media and on twitter? The media is unionist and the abuse she receives from unionists on twitter is an extension of that.

Fair enough. Of course, you’re allowed to share that view, just as I can share mine, (along with my actual, truthful, experience of a no voter having their window put in. )

No and still no. Brexit has no impact on my decision.

@Piffpaffpoff As a then-and-now No voter (from one of the most heavily leaning No regions), that was also my experience (albeit not with the window broken!). But it was an incredibly emotive and divisive issue, and I engaged in the debate far less than I would have liked because I was tired of the aggression and accusations of "quisling/traitor/Yoon/you obviously don't love your country if you don't want it to be independent" etc. There may not have been riots in the streets, but it wasn't a pleasant, peaceful, enjoyable period.

As to the original questions, no then and no now. While I think Brexit has been handled horrendously (although I don't think, given how close the vote was and how uncertain the actual leaving process was, that it could have been handled well), no new arguments have been put forward to make me believe that independence is the way forward. I'm not a No-Never, but I'm a Definitely-Not-Now on the basis of a lack of good reason for becoming independent (other than "but I want to make our own decisions"), and a failure by the majority of the Yes campaign to engage with the inevitable hard choices and consequences of becoming independent.

No and still no.

To me Brexit and independence are the same mindset, the same propoganda and divisive philosophy of 'taking back control' whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean. The utter shit show of Brexit has confirmed my view that for Scotland to try to leave the UK will be a painful, economically crushing reality.

I find it disingenuous and frankly baffling to be anti-Brexit and pro-independence, a stance that most of my friends and colleagues adopt. Nothing to do with England being filled with English people. Oh no. Definitely not that.

I think a lot of unionists didn’t enjoy the referendum campaign because they didn’t like having their lifelong hegemony threatened, whereas Yes voters enjoyed it because they felt hope for a better future.

All politics is divisive, and if people can’t accept that then political discourse is probably not for them.

As for engaging with No voters, happy to. However, if you remain a No voter when faced with the betrayal of the Vow, the failure of UK Gov to engage with Scottish Gov to compromise over Brexit, the Brexit shambles itself, the rise of the Brexit Party, the broken promise of remaining in the UK if we voted no, the contempt shown to Scotland by Westminster, Universal Credit and the prospect of Boris Johnson propped up by Nigel Farage, then I’m not that interested in changing your view.

Demographics can see to it now that the change will come, and you can’t complain because you’ve had it your way for your entire life tobtjis point.

The similarities between the Indy ref and Brexit vote are eerily similar... but in a topsy-turvy way. Indyref NO voters - that is wanting to STAY in the UK, kept quiet as they were the ones who got the abuse for being 'traitors', but those who wanted to STAY in the EU abused the leavers as thick, racist, bigot etc.

“I find it disingenuous and frankly baffling to be anti-Brexit and pro-independence,”

My preference is for an independent Scotland outside the EU with EFTA membership, like Norway and Switzerland.

I do object though to Scotland being removed from the EU given it’s vite to remain and the promises made during the independence referendum campaign.

A respectful and constructive UK Gov would have Brexit for England and Wales with Scotland and NI remaining in EU.

It works perfectly well for the Kingdom of Denmark with them being in the EU and their devolved areas (Faroes and Greenland) being out of the EU.

“The similarities between the Indy ref and Brexit vote are eerily similar... but in a topsy-turvy way. Indyref NO voters - that is wanting to STAY in the UK, kept quiet as they were the ones who got the abuse for being 'traitors', but those who wanted to STAY in the EU abused the leavers as thick, racist, bigot etc.”

You must have forgotten how Yes supporters were portrayed as traitors to Her Majesty and traitors to the armed forces and to the memory of all those who lost their lives in the world wars.

"All politics is divisive, and if people can’t accept that then political discourse is probably not for them."

Absolutely. Politics is divisive. But it can be rational, considered and respectful (albeit those are words generally lacking in politics nowadays, both at a grassroots level and further up). What people shouldn't have to accept is aggression and accusations because of differing views, regardless of the side that they are on.

“But it can be rational, considered and respectful ”

Yes, I remember when political discourse consisted of Labour vs Tory and it was all very respectful, especially during the miners strike and the poll tax.

The cries we hear for calmer gentler politics are mostly dissembling cries for people to sit down and shut up.

No then and possibly even stronger no now.
Streetwise, you're not really doing yourself or your cause any favours here;

No voters feeling threatened, Yes voters feeling Hope

'claims of intimidation by Yes voters and of No voters being scared to speak are simply lies' - nope - every single No billboard in the 35 miles or so between home and work was removed EVERY SINGLE DAY. All of the Yes boards remained standing - heck there are even some Yes posters/billboards still around in the fields locally. Or do you perhaps believe that No supporters were sabotaging their own advertising so that Yes supporters would get the blame?

We had a Yes rally in town a few weeks ago - don't know anyone locally who attended but there were hundreds from outside the area. If you want to hold a rally, fine, but keep it in your own neck of the woods rather than trying to intimate that a region that voted 70% to remain in the UK has suddenly done a volte-face and is now marching to leave.

And the Iraq War. That was really a time of gentle respectful politics.

I was going to respond to be being called a liar because my experience doesn't match the 'empowering and inspirational' campaign that many Yes voters seem to remember (despite other No voters confirming that they had the same experience), but I try not to feed the trolls and have better things to do with my headspace.

StreetwiseHercules is however providing a perfect illustration of why I have no desire whatsoever to revisit this shitshow. Don't agree with the pro-independence view? You must be a lying fantasist! I've yet to hear a good reason why independence would solve any of the problems raised by Brexit. And yes, the arguments for Brexit and Independence are largely the same (although the impact of independence would be orders of magnitude worse).

“Don't agree with the pro-independence view? You must be a lying fantasist!”
Not a view I have expressed. Try to be honest in your discourse.

I don’t think people who are opposed to independence are all liars. Not at all.

When people say that No voters (with the entire mass media and British apparatus on their side) were intimidated and silent during the referendum campaign, I call bullshit.

Like most bullshit, it’s to keep us away from discussing the real issue, that being the best future for our country.

You might not like it, but revisited it will be.

I quote:

"StreetwiseHercules Thu 13-Jun-19 07:49:07
“Not fanciful at all. Many no voters didn’t dare speak out such was the aggressiveness of the Yes message. My area was comfortably No, like pretty much all Scottish areas, yet people daren’t put up No posters in case their windows were put out. ”

It’s awful to someone just typing lies like this. Embarrassing stuff."

You called me a liar because my recollection of Indyref doesn't match yours. I am being perfectly honest in my discourse. You just don't want to hear it.

I don’t accept you are being honest, but that’s just my view.

It’s not your opposition to political independence for the country you live in which makes me form that view, it’s your revisionist portrayal of recent history.

It's not revisionist when several people on this thread alone have stated that it was also their experience. You were on the other side of the fence and I accept that for you it was all street parties and hope, but like it or not No voters WERE intimidated and targeted if they openly expressed that view.

And I've been sucked back into the Independence black hole when I swore I wouldn't be. Well done. But I'm not playing any more. If and when Indyref2 is officially on the agenda I'll argue my case, more strongly than last time. But for now I have better things to do than reopen old wounds.

Streetwise - really, stop digging.