General Election - June 8th

[TinfoilHattie]

Another vote.

Can totally understand why May has made this move and it is very interersting from a Scottish perspective. Less about Brexit, more about another independence referendum.

I am very torn on who to vote for. It was exceptionally close between SNP and Lib Dem here last time round so it will probably be Lib Dem, but if polls show more chance of the Conservatives or Labour getting the SNP MP out on his ear I'd vote for either of those too. (V unlikely that Labour would be in that position though). Wouldn't ever vote Green.

Youcannot, do you think it would be better if council tax was as expensive as in England? And services are being cut down there too.

perchance because the English aren't getting a subsidy from Barnett? hehehe. Yes, council taxes should rise, yes, income taxes should rise. Let's have better public services and stop mucking about with paying more for less under independence.

www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9141

I might be willing to pay more council tax (within reason) if that would mean better local services. How councils conduct themselves in England doesn't affect me at all as that is completely devolved - it's the decisions of the Scottish government that impact upon my level of council tax and, therefore, how much councils have to spend.

Going back to the original point though, someone (I think you?) said that the Scottish government was spending millions to mitigate the more extreme policies of the Tory government and protect the poor, someone else asked how, and the response was a list of achievements posted on a SNP website. I pointed out that this was not likely to give a balanced picture of how well the Scottish government is protecting the poor, and mentioned the council tax freeze as an example of how SNP policies had actively hurt the poor. And lets not pretend that the council tax freeze had noble, socialist intentions - it benefited the better off far more than it benefited the poor and was to buy votes, pure and simple, just like the universal free tuition fees which also benefit the better off far more than the poor. Those votes led to an SNP majority, which led to demands for independence, which has always been the priority of the SNP.

I will be voting LibDem, in the hope that the SNP get a very bloody nose.

I always enter these debates and talk about Education, as I teach in Scotland.

Education is 100% devolved and the results can be laid squarely at the door of the SNP. When they came to power we had maximum class sizes of 20 in S1 and S2 for Maths and English - a Labour under Jack McConnell policy (ex Maths teacher). Now, we can be required to teach up to 33 pupils. And, surprise, surprise, standards have dropped considerably.

We have the Curriculum for Excellence - a woolly pile of nonsense. Yes, it was conceived under Labour but has been implemented (and changed, significantly) by the SNP. I am a teacher but also a parent. There is currently no way of finding out using standardised measures how pupils are doing until they hit S4 and the National exams (interesting choice of name....). So, we don't know if they are failing, managing or excelling in comparison to those in other schools / areas / nations.

And, to the exams. Pupils who sat 8-9 Standard Grades are now doing only 6 N5s. The N4s are a joke. A recently (foreign) arrival to my class completed the whole N4 course in 2 weeks with no need for teaching. And I teach English (too late to put her in for N5). There are hundreds of assessments (and remember, none up to that point) which they have suddenly woken up and decided to get rid of - but one of the major players at the SQA is John Swinney's brother - so they knew. They had been told of the awful burden on both pupils and teachers. Assessments which take hours and hours (in my own subject, 1 assessment is 5 minutes per pupil with up to 33 in the class, plus feedback / marking and 12 separate things they have to achieve to pass. Oh, and if they miss one or two, they have to be re-assessed while the rest of the class........

And University is not "free" if you want to go anywhere other than Scotland, even if your course is not available, or has only limited availability (Pharmacology - 1 course only in Scotland) or if you are ambitious. DS is the first pupil in his school EVER to get a place at Oxford but he will be paying for it, not the government. Yet a French boy can go to a Scottish University for free. And the interest and payment schedule in SAAS loans make them much more expensive than their English or Welsh equivalent.

And my roads are full of potholes. And I can't see a GP because there aren't any most of the time.

So, forgive me if I don't fall for the SNP bollocks talked about how they care about the poor and want he best for Scotland's children. They have had many, many chances to make a difference.

My book budget for a year for a whole school library is £250 - buys about 40 paperbacks - and yet Queen Nicola has money to go strutting around the US claiming to care about the poor. Poor kids who don't have books at home and where a school library is vital (oh, and the public library is closed most of the time too).

The SNP care about one thing only, independence. Not even how to manage after they achieve their goal but just the great big hoolie they will have when they get what they want.

And then I will leave and, along with many, take my small business, my teaching skills and my money and invest it somewhere economically stable because this place will be fucked.

Hamlets, your comments about University tuition fees are really interesting. As a Scot living in England, I'm somewhat bemused by the reaction of Scots to tuition fees.
Of course, when tuition fees were introduced, the natural reaction was to be opposed to it. It doesn't sit easily and as a point of principle, we would all love free education and equality of opportunity.
However, as someone who benefitted from an excellent Scottish university education when we had student grants, housing benefit and the ability to 'sign on' during the holidays, I really feel my generation was privileged. This has afforded me excellent opportunities and as a result my children have benefitted enormously. If people like us don't contribute to the system, then who on earth does?
I have Scottish family and friends ( middle class professionals) who feel that the Scots 'value' education more than the English because of free university fees and say they couldn't afford them.
I don't understand how people can claim to care about equality of opportunity, SNP 'progressive ' policies and yet not be prepared to contribute themselves when there isn't a bottomless pit of cash.
The moral high ground the SNP takes on this subject smacks of hypocrisy when so many young people who could benefit from a university education aren't even getting close to it.
It might be of interest to know that Scottish universities are dropping their offers for English students. I wonder why?

Yes there is a a cap on the number of Scottish and EU students allowed in Scottish universities that has not increased in line with increasing numbers of applications - this means a record number of Scottish students not being offered a place.

We need to get real about what we really want to pay for. Free university education doesn't help many poor children.

Well said Hamlet. Certainly agree on your view of Nat 4s. And let's not forget the impact of capped numbers for Scottish students at University because of free tuition. Making it easier for students who pay fees to gain a place with lower grades. Pity the poor Scottish student who wants to go through clearing - v poor chance vs an English or overseas student.

1/3 of Free funded places at Edinburgh Uni now go to rEU rather than Scottish students. One thing to compete for a capped place in a Nation of 5 million quite another across a continent of 500 million.

Going off topic a bit, do you think that the standard of the Nationals is lower than in previous standard grade/highers? I have to confess that I'm worried that if my children only have the opportunity to achieve 'substandard' qualifications, they may not be accepted into universities elsewhere in the U.K. They might choose to go to a Scottish Uni anyway, but I don't want that to be their only option. There are far fewer up here after all.

Yes, the N5s are easier than the old Intermediate 2s but roughly the same as Standard Grades. DS has a place at Oxford on N5 etc but our school is unusual and he has mostly Highers. But I know of several with offers outside Scotland. They tend to be on the high side. For example - unconditional to a Edinburgh but 3 As at AH for Durham.

Thanks, it's good to know that they're recognised outside of Scotland.

Ooft, have you seen the latest polls? Nicola is not going to be happy.

Link?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-revival-on-course-to-foil-independence-0kwxzclfw

I really hope the snp lose a load of seats. Just wish it was to someone other than the tories.

I've seen the polls. For those of my persuasion, it's pretty depressing.
HOWEVER, I think it would be a mistake to equate a rise in votes for the Conservative party in Scotland in this GE as being a drop in support for Scottish independence (or even a drop in support for the SNP), it's more to with the continuing destruction of the Labour Party north of the border- its tactical voting by those who want Brexit at all costs.

Some of my family members will be doing exactly that- and their demographic (pension age and far from wealthy), are probably the democratic which will lose the most from the Tories winning a landslide across the uk in this GE- turkeys voting for Christmas.

I think you're wrong. It's tactical voting to try and stop there being another independence referendum. Just have a look on twitter.

In 2015 the No voters were split between parties. This time voters are aware and voting tactically.

The drop in the snp vote is more interesting. I wonder whether that's to do with the high proportion of snp members who voted leave. Or is it those that believed sturgeon when she said in 2015 that a vote for the snp isn't a vote for independence and are now regretting their vote.

Should have added that I think it's the latter rather than a vote for Brexit.

it's more to with the continuing destruction of the Labour Party north of the border- its tactical voting by those who want Brexit at all costs

Utter nonsense. Unless a party or parties made a key manifesto pledge to hold another EU referendum and won Brexit will happen. No one needs to vote tactically to get Brexit.

I will be voting Lib Dem or Conservative whichever has the best chance of beating the SNP.

Labour has one seat currently in Scotland, and the SNP is the party that's been poaching their support. How does their 'continuing destruction' lead to a rise in Tory support exactly? Brexit will happen regardless and it doesn't add up that Scots (who were mostly in favour of remain) will switch to Tory just to make sure.

I think it's pretty clear that a switch to the Tories in Scotland is a direct response to the threat of an independence referendum, especially as the SNP have framed this election in these terms.

I think it's pretty clear that a switch to the Tories in Scotland is a direct response to the threat of an independence referendum, especially as the SNP have framed this election in these terms

Absolutely. AndHoldTheBun's post makes no sense at all.

it would be a mistake to equate a rise in votes for the Conservative party in Scotland in this GE as being a drop in support for Scottish independence

This is exactly the line which the SNP will try to feed us. It's not about independence, it's about Brexit, it's about Labour, it's about the NHS or education, it's absolutely not about independence, we have a mandate, we speak for the Scottish people yadda yadda yadda. When you're as blinkered and such a one trick pony as Nicola Sturgeon you twist everything to your own agenda. Independence at all costs.

After the last GE I'm sceptical about polls - until the exit poll on the day another coalition was widely predicted. I do think though that the SNP will lose a few seats and that's a very positive step.

YY in these elections I will be tactically voting - probably for the Lib Dems as they have more chance of beating the SNP.
And I really don't agree with the current Lib Dem policy on Brexit (to me a remonaner's charter) - I think talk about another referendum on the 'deal' etc is undermining our negotiating position ...we just need to get on with it - get the best deal we can and then see how it goes ...
if things really were that bad after a few years of brexit we could always rejoin. There is a standard application procedure - I don't think we would be refused. We are currently net contributors after all -and could be quite quickly again - unlike most new applicants.
Whereas reuniting the UK would a lot more difficult - no procedures in place ...and if Scotland was in as big a mess economically then as now - and I suspect it would be in an even worse mess and that would be the driving force to want to reunite - would rUK want them back?

And I've said before I was always a bit hmm about the 60% support for remain in Scotland - I think some people voted remain to stop the SNP being a position to call for Indyref2. It influenced my thinking and I know it did others on MN at least - there was a thread on it - the best way to vote to avoid another independence referendum....
And during the 2015 elections I read several posts on here saying a vote for the SNP in those elections wasn't a vote for independence/another referendum...
I do think most Yes voters were blissfully unaware of the true extent of the undercurrent of intimidation felt by No voters - and how much dread is felt on the prospect of facing that again...

Yep another one not voting for the tories because of Brexit, but because of Sturgeon dragging us into another referendum and Davidson being able to take her on. I'd like to see what Davidson makes of some real power.

The SNP like to set up win-wins - good result? Claims mandate for ref. Bad result? Then that is not about independence but about anti labour votes.

I agree that the polls cannot be relied upon as much as they used to. Still one hell of a swing to the tories and not just one poll showing it either.

It'll be interesting to see how the voting goes in the council elections. That'll give an indication of current thinking. It's quite good that these are happening before the GE as it'll help with the tactics to get the SNP out of seats.

I agree with everything you say unlucky. Particularly the last sentence.