General Election - June 8th

[TinfoilHattie]

Another vote.

Can totally understand why May has made this move and it is very interersting from a Scottish perspective. Less about Brexit, more about another independence referendum.

I am very torn on who to vote for. It was exceptionally close between SNP and Lib Dem here last time round so it will probably be Lib Dem, but if polls show more chance of the Conservatives or Labour getting the SNP MP out on his ear I'd vote for either of those too. (V unlikely that Labour would be in that position though). Wouldn't ever vote Green.

The SNP aren't incompetent. They are doing well with what they have. They are doing better than the conservatives are doing for the UK. Conservatives have cut public services, got over a million people on food banks, cut benefits and homelessness has increased hugely. Yet they've borrowed more than anyone else.

"With MPs like this, is it any wonder the Tories’ record in power looks so bad?
Since 2010, the Tories have cut, among other things:
• The Independent Living Fund (ILFF), which previously supported people with care packages. Since the government cut it, in some areas 88% of people have seen their care packages reducedd by up to 50%.
• Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) for sick and disabled peoplee_ in the Work-Related Activity Group (WRAG) by a third. This will affect 500,000 people.
• 55% a weekk_ from ESA for sick and disabled 18-to-25-year-olds.
• 51,000 disabled people’s Motability vehicless_, which were important for them to live independently.
• PIP from 164,000 peoplee living with mental health issues. And the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) has reduced or stopped PIP for nearlyy half (45%) of all claimants.
And meanwhile:
• The DWP was caught up in a scandall_involving fit-for-work assessors asking people why they hadn’t “killed” themselves.
• A study foundd_ that the DWP fit-for-work assessments caused people permanent mental health damage.
• 62% of people the DWP sanctionss_ live with mental health issues.
• 10,600 people diedd_ after their benefit claims ended.
• 90 people a month are dyingg_ after the DWP declares them ‘fit-for-work’.
• 590 people may have taken their own life duee_, in part, to DWP fit-for-work tests.
You know what to do
In fact, new figures now suggestt that all the suffering has been for nothing. Because Tory cuts haven’t even saved the money they were supposed to. But this is perhaps unsurprising given that, as The Guardian recently wrotee, Prime Minister Theresa May seems to be (at the very least) “clueless… on the impact of the government’s social security policy”."

From Wee Ginger Dug (or a guest post on his site anyway):
"Why? What have they done in office that is so much more reprehensible than anyone else? If you had to take political opponents at their word, the current Scottish government have apparently brought the entirety of Scotland's institutions and services to the brink of catastrophe. Going by the headline and the soundbite, at any minute our entire country is about to collapse from terminal ESSENPEENESS and descend into a screaming chaos of hospital closures, lawlessness,educational carnage and 'notional' bottomless debt. You name it, there isn't an area of government that they haven't been opposed on or criticized about every day for the past ten years.
In fact the SNP are generally painted by their opposition and the meeja as the evilest baddies in the universe... bar none. A sort of devious mad political offspring of Ming the Merciless and Countess Bathory if you will. It's all their pure evil single issue divisiveness you see and apparently the idea is we should be afraid of them and what they'll do next to make our lives even more miserable than they already are. They're probably also cruel to kittens and steal the wean's sweeties. Pure dead vile so they are.
Uh huh!
Well, I've only today looked oot the windae and to my surprise, people are pretty much getting on with their lives and not creeping about in abject terror of imminent Niclamageddon. So let's get a little perspective on what constitutes irresponsible government shall we?
Have they attempted to undermine the electoral process by naked media manipulation?
Have they abused anyone's human rights?
Have they pished billions up against the wall in geopolitical vanity projects?
How about actually being engaged in attempting to rewrite the rule book on parliamentary democracy?
Well no, not that I can recall either.
That last link by the way? The power to legislate at ministerial level without parliamentary oversight or scrutiny? Think about that people. Think about what it means for your democracy. Think about what it means for your human and civil rights. Think about a couple of decades of Conservative dominance of Westminster politics and then tell me how this creates a fairer, more just, more inclusive, more unified and caring society.
I know I've said this before, but in no reality I can imagine would the current Conservative government form a 'stable and strong' leadership. What follows a Conservative landslide in an already Conservative controlled austerity/Brexit UK, I believe we want no part of.
As near as I can see, the SNP are no worse in government than anyone else we've experienced in our lives, but I reckon they're a hell of an improvement. They haven't started any wars, crashed an economy, abused human rights, or wilfully enacted harmful legislation against the poor or the powerless in society. Oh, and they absolutely have NOT used their power, or seemingly limitless access to the mainstream media (sarky), to demonise and alienate major demographics of their population. They are however, human. They make mistakes. They'll enact legislation that sometimes doesn't work as billed and some they'll have to make work. Some will work just fine. The democratic process takes care of real serial failure and intransigence. Ask Labour how that works.
That IS politics.
I’m wondering at this point if people know what government does for a living? More specifically, what responsible government does and should do for a living?
Your Conservative government and the Westminster parliamentary system, believe in top down power. Parliamentary sovereignty and power derived from the crown. In short, the people, the population owe the state their taxes, their loyalty, their lives. The population exists to serve the state and support the power and privilege of the few.
Traditionally and as far as generations of Scots have been concerned for some three hundred years and change, that’s how things are. The many serve the few and the few, when they can be arsed, deign to look after the interests of the many so long as it suits their needs.
In times of what they would see as good management, expansion and plenty (see under empire), the many benefit from the largesse of a contented few. They can afford it after all at this point. In times of bad management, contraction and want, (see under NOW), the dead wood (that would be you mainly) are cut loose and the power and wealth are centralised to protect the lifestyles and power structures to which the few have become accustomed. Heaven forfend that the poor dears suffer in any way shape or form.
The state and the established order is ALL. The people serve the state. No duty of care. No public service. No ‘unity’ or common weal. Simply ‘dae as yer telt’ because… badgers and it’s really for your own good.
Now yer SNP Scottish government, some associated progressive parties across the UK and the wider YES movement in Scotland, have a somewhat different outlook. They believe that the power rests with the people. That parliament derives its direction, its power and mandate from the wants, needs and aspirations of the population. That the government of the day reflects the mandate of its population. Not all of the Holyrood parliament holds this belief of course, but that’s a work in progress.
Essentially though, government should be very, very simple. I happen to believe that the state and the party politician owe the people their service, loyalty, a duty of care and the ability to live with dignity. The basics for all our requirements at point of need. It's about putting food on our table. Keeping us safe and well. Protecting our inalienable human rights and interests. In exchange we pay taxes to meet those needs and pay our public servants accordingly to administer and manage same. In short, the population are the nation and the nation is its population. Not the state. Not those who exercise power through the state, but the people.
I'm hoping you can see why those reliant on the Westminster system and their hangers on, would want to 'STOP the SNP' and indeed any progressive political party at this point. You can also hopefully understand why they'd like to put an end to your engagement in the political process and I'd say it has bugger all to do with the good of the people or vile ESSENPEE badness."

Scottish govt has also made cuts.

Conservative govt will hopefully be ousted in 2022. Meanwhile snp party in Westminster makes it more and more difficult to get cons out, as they split the anti-con vote. It works for the snp to split the vote as they can then claim that Scottish electorate is unfairly done by.

The SNP in Westminster have nothing to do with whether the conservatives get in or not. If the entire population of Scotland voted labour, it would still make no difference if the conservatives had a majority in England.

Not sure how a rant about the Tories is relevant to the question of whether the SNP are incompetent or not (and responsible for the vast majority of Scottish issues), although one line did stand out for me:

"They believe that the power rests with the people. That parliament derives its direction, its power and mandate from the wants, needs and aspirations of the population."

Unless, of course, the majority of the people are stubbornly refusing to be sufficiently outraged by Brexit to demand a second referendum and/or support independence. In that case the Scottish parliament will show the people that it knows best and cobble together a small majority to force another referendum on the populace, even if it means explicitly breaking a manifesto pledge (as the Greens did).

The main reason I think that the SNP are incompetent is not because they sometimes put forward policy that doesn't work - it's because they are bound by ideology and so convinced in their own superiority that ideas are poorly implemented.

The Curriculum for Excellence is a good example of this - a decent idea but so poorly implemented that our once world-leading education system is tumbling down the international rankings. The SNP solution - withdraw us from those rankings. They were warned about problems with their proposed restructuring of the police, but went ahead anyway. The Named Person legislation was poorly thought through and many groups objected to it - it was pushed through anyway and only rolled back when it parts of it were judged to be so illiberal that it was illegal. Their council tax freeze was independently judged to be hurting the poor to benefit the rich because it meant that services had to be cut. This is blindingly obvious, yet the SNP persisted with this policy for almost a decade. Free tuition fees at Scottish Universities mean these universities are forced to recruit fee-paying students from elsewhere to make up the income gap, and consequently there are fewer places available for Scottish young people. There is no evidence that this policy closes the attainment gap, yet the SNP is ideologically wedded to this idea. Not to mention they have increased business rates to crippling levels and presided over Scotland falling to the brink of recession, despite the rest of the UK showing growth. They only deigned to deal with this issue when it threatened to cost them votes.

Then of course we have the last 12 months, where they have consistently failed to act on the wishes of parliament when outvoted, and have passed nothing of note.

It works for the snp to split the vote as they can then claim that Scottish electorate is unfairly done by.

Absolutely. It is a mathematical certainty that a vote for the SNP will not deliver significant influence at Westminster, which they know full well. To truly by represented at Westminster, Scotland must return MPs that stand UK-wide.

If the entire population of Scotland voted Labour it would still make no difference if the conservatives had a majority in England.

That would be fair. We can't expect fewer than 10% of the UK electorate to have disproportional influence on the UK.

The Scottish electorate vote for all the major parties. There's no significant political/voting difference between Scotland and rUK.

They believe that the power rests with the people Could you explain what you mean by that and how it justifies Scottish independence?

Anyone seen the videos of SNP campaigners intimidating and harassing Conservative campaigners? It's disgusting.

Yes it was disgusting and if she is an SNP member then she should be expelled. Just like the woman has been from the Labour party that was shouting outside Downing Street.

" To truly by represented at Westminster, Scotland must return MPs that stand UK-wide."

Well I can't see Scotland returning a significant number of Tories. Scottish labour's leader is constantly bumping heads with the leader of UK labour. Scottish labour conference voted against trident and said that would be their policy but that was overruled and they are now for trident - against the express vote of their conference! Wonder why labour in Scotland have gone down the pan? Anyway as I pointed out, we did vote labour fairly consistently in the past. That's done now. You know what they say, keep doing what you've done and you'll keep getting what you've got.

A rant against the conservatives I think was highly necessary and relevant If we are looking at records of government in power. I believe the Tory record is worse by far than the SNP record.

That video is disgraceful but sadly not surprising. It seems to be becoming socially acceptable to publicly hector and intimidate anyone who isn't deemed to have 'acceptable' political views, which in the current climate is the Tories. You see the same vitriol all over social media. It doesn't help that our First Minister practically spits the word 'Tory' and uses it as a derogatory term every time she speaks. So much for 'open', 'inclusive', and 'welcoming' Scotland. (Just as long as you don't think the wrong thoughts or support the wrong party.)

I don't agree with hectoring or harassment either. However I can see why people are angry with the conservatives. Just look at the list I posted above. Do you think people should doff their caps?

People are very fickle Nyx and politics goes in cycles. The Tories were popular in Scotland a few decades ago and may be again soon. It also wasn't that long ago that Labour ruled the roost across the UK and the Tories were dogged by infighting, this has turned around in a decade or so, and the roles will probably be reversed again. The SNP seem to have passed their peak and be on the way down; maybe they'll resurge in the future, who knows. Nothing is forever when it comes to political landscapes. Unlike a vote for independence.

As always, we'll have to agree to disagree about the SNP's record

Their policies are literally causing people to commit suicide.

Cross post! Tory policies, I mean!

Rogue, about sovereignty of the people - again from weegingerdug's blog:
Who is sovereign in Scotland? According to Scottish tradition and to the Scottish Claim of Right that would be the Scottish people. The Westminster doctrine that sovereignty in the UK rests with the Crown in Parliament was famously ruled in 1953 by the Lord President of the Court of Session to have no standing in Scots law. Lord Cooper of Culross gave his legal opinion stating, “the principle of unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle and has no counterpart in Scottish constitutional law”.
Be that as it may, successive Westminster governments have a very different view. They uphold the doctrine of the absolute sovereignty of the Westminster parliament, and their absolute right to overrule the rights of the Scottish people. The only person in the whole of Scotland who is sovereign is Fluffy Mundell, and he does what the Tory Prime Minister tells him. You might think Mundell is two faced, but ask yourself, if that was true why’s he wearing that one? We think we live in a democracy, but it’s the strangest democracy in the world, where the party which gets just one seat gets to call all the shots and complain that the majority party wants a one-party state. British democracy is four Tory wolves, three Labour jackals and a Scottish sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
We might fondly imagine in Scotland that the Scottish people are sovereign, but that’s not how it works in practice. That’s how come we can get Theresa May appearing on the Andrew Marr show telling us that Scotland shouldn’t have a second independence referendum. When you’re told that you require permission from a Prime Minister that no one elected and whose party has only one MP in your country, it’s a safe bet that the establishment wants you to believe that the principle of popular sovereignty doesn’t apply to you. Scotland, you’ll do what you’re told and you’ll be happy that you live in a free country. British democracy means that in this most perfect partnership of nations, the small nations get to do what the big one tells them.
Later this week Patrick Grady, the SNP MP for Glasgow North, has arranged a debate in Westminster on the Scottish Claim of Right. The Claim of Right states that the Scottish people have the right to determine the form of government most suited to their needs. Westminster Tories and their Labour pals are going to tell us that the form of government best suited to Scotland’s needs is the form that Labour and the Tories tell us is best for us.
When you have a debate on the popular sovereignty of the people of Scotland held in the parliament that fetishises its own absolute sovereignty, the result is predictable. Westminster’s going to tell us that the only sovereignty in the UK is the sovereignty of the Westminster parliament. They’re going to tell us that if we want another independence referendum that we need their permission. And they’re going to tell us that we shouldn’t have one. Why do you want a Scottish independence day, Westminster asks, because when you live under Tory rule there’s fireworks every day.
The thing about popular sovereignty is that if you have to ask for it, then you can’t have it. The people are sovereign only when they start to act as though they are. A sovereign people don’t need permission in order to campaign for independence. We don’t need permission from a political party. We don’t need the blessing of the Scottish parliament. And we most certainly don’t need the permission of a Westminster parliament that denies that we have it. By organising ourselves, by starting our campaign, by acting as though we were already independent, then we achieve sovereignty. Sovereignty comes from deeds, not words. Scottish sovereignty is produced by the people of Scotland taking their future into their own hands and campaigning for a destiny that we determine for ourselves. We don’t need anyone’s permission.
This week we learned from Nick Clegg that during the coalition government the Tories cynically screwed over the poor and the low paid in order to curry favour with the rich and the better off. They had no concern or care for the human consequences or the victims of their policies. And that was when the Lib Dems were supposedly holding them in check. Now we have a majority Tory government there’s no check or restraint on their self-serving pursuit of power and their ability to punish the weakest in society. With a Tory majority government, the popular sovereignty of the Scottish people isn’t just something that would be a good idea, it becomes a moral imperative.
In a Scotland where the people, all the people, are collectively sovereign, it becomes a betrayal to punish the poor to benefit the rich. A country where the people are sovereign is a land which is governed in the interests of all, not the interests of a few. It’s a country which forsakes itself if it allows inequality to grow, if it permits the children of less advantaged families to fall behind. Yet all these things happen in the UK as a matter of Conservative policy because in the UK the only imperative is the need to get reelected under an unfair and skewed voting system that the Tories are about to skew even more blatantly in their own favour. If we vote to remain a part of the UK, we’re voting to consign ourselves to the gutter, we’re voting to reduce ourselves to the detritus that can be swept aside. Because we won’t be sovereign.

Those activists were trying to go about their business and would reasonably expect to be able to do so. Not be chased down the street by a raving lunatic. No cap-doffing was expected or asked for.

I think that an inclusive and tolerant society accepts all viewpoints that fall within the bounds of the law. That includes Tory viewpoints. Who was it that said "I disapprove of that you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"? I think that principle is critically important for any civilised society, otherwise we descend into fascism. I also think it's very important that leaders are seen to respect this principle, and make clear very publicly to supporters that this kind of behaviour is not acceptable. I am extremely angry with the SNP for their behaviour in recent months, but I would never chase activists down the street, and would expect anyone who did to be dealt with in the strongest terms.

Thanks Nyx

Could you explain how reclaiming sovereignity would benefit us in practical, concrete terms?

What form of government do you think the Scottish gov't should have?

You I know! NS has an aggressive manner.

I'm not a con supporter but it annoys me that she seemingly can't or won't ever say 'Conservative'. It' s disrespectful. I noticed that Ruth Davidson used the word tory in the Scottish leaders' debate. Smart of her to reclaim it.

I don't agree with hectoring or harassment either. However I can see why people are angry with the conservatives. Just look at the list I posted above. Do you think people should doff their caps?

In what world are the only two options hectoring, or doffing your cap?

Could you explain how reclaiming sovereignity would benefit us in practical, concrete terms?

The response is usually that decisions for Scotland should be made in Scotland. But this isn't obviously better than what we have now. It's not like you'll suddenly be able to decide everything for yourself. It's still going to be a parliament made up of elected representatives. If you get an MSP you didn't vote for (which clearly some/many people will), why is that going to be better than it is now? Every person in Scotland does't think the same way.

The complaints people have about Scotland being marginalised in favour of the South-East will just morph into people in the Highlands complaining about focus on the Central Belt. Plenty of people in other parts of England object to South-East focus too, by the way, so Scotland is not uniquely affected there.

Also, the tax take from that region benefits us all. The spend/earn ratio is more than 100% in most parts of the UK but London makes a contribution well over what it takes in spending. Most countries have a similar situation.

All the claims made in support of independence, or at least the ones they were making during indyref, were that Scotland could do great things with jobs, the economy, education, social welfare, etc if only we were independent. At the time, I was planning to vote Yes. But I couldn't see a) why these things could only be achieved once we were independent and b)what they would actually consist of. They were just general promises for things that everyone would want - more money, better life, things no-one would say no to - but with no details as to how, and why not now. I realised the campaign was not an honest one and now I have come to disagree entirely with the cause and see it as a nationalism as damaging as any other nationalism.

So I'd be interested to see what actual real, practical things could only be done and would be done (bearing in mind we, like every nation, would not have unlimited money) once we were independent that would make all our lives better than they are now.