General Election - June 8th

[TinfoilHattie]

Another vote.

Can totally understand why May has made this move and it is very interersting from a Scottish perspective. Less about Brexit, more about another independence referendum.

I am very torn on who to vote for. It was exceptionally close between SNP and Lib Dem here last time round so it will probably be Lib Dem, but if polls show more chance of the Conservatives or Labour getting the SNP MP out on his ear I'd vote for either of those too. (V unlikely that Labour would be in that position though). Wouldn't ever vote Green.

Scotland would have a voice of her own if independent. Currently our voice is stifled.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/what-justifies-indyref2/?utmcontent=buffer288e7&utmmmedium=social&utmsource=twitter.com&utmmcampaign=buffer
"The reason Brexit justifies calling a referendum on Scottish independence lies not in the fact that the Brexit referendum produced different results in England and in Scotland, but in the London government’s reaction to this fact. Scotland’s government, virtually all its MPs, and a clear majority of its people, are opposed to leaving the EU. That fact, as far as London is concerned, is irrelevant. It is there that the democratic outrage lies. It would still be a democratic outrage regardless of what the particular issue was. The point is the negation of Scotland’s democratic will, not the EU question as such."

As for Scotland managing a better deal in EU negotiations, I believe we would. Scotland is willing to compromise on things where TM isn't. Plus, we actively want freedom of movement and therefore would be able to negotiate deals for trade which would be more advantageous. Whereas TM is signaling no deal at all! Hmmm. Which position would I rather be in? I wish you would engage with these points I'm making, rogue. Do you seriously think Scotland wouldn't negotiate a better deal than TM? Apart from anything, the EU are friendly towards Scotland. Probably because we have stated that we share their values.

Apart from anything, the EU are friendly towards Scotland.

In what way exactly? Where is the proof of this?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.rt.com/document/58eceab8c461882e5d8b45d2/amp

Fairly unequivocal really

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eu-workers-feel-more-welcome-in-scotland-9k7fshxxq

Fairly unequivocal

This letter from 50 European politicians is not proof of anything except that some EU politicians from a handful of the EU members would be happy for Scotland to be in EU. That doesn't mean that Scotland would get a good deal. It means that some MEPS would be happy for Scotland to rejoin the EU. There's a huge leap between actual negotiations and that letter.

Lol. I know I would need to produce personal letters from every single MEP begging Scotland to be bffs forever to convince you. So I will leave that point. Do you have evidence otherwise? That the EU are not welcoming you Scotland?

Laughing at Rogue's reply. Yeah ok.

To Scotland, even.

EU workers feel more welcome in Scotland - survey

The first comment is very relevant. We don't know how welcome EU workers would be in Scotland if they were in huge clusters as in some of the SE English towns.

Anyway, the feelings of 650 EU nationals in Britain is not going to influence the negotiations.

Also, the friendliness or otherwise of the Scottish population is only one factor in EU nationals' decisions to come here.

Do you believe TM will get a better deal than Scotland would?

Scotland would have to apply to join the EU. According to the European Commision's head of representation in UK.

The EU can't bend its rules for one country. That would be unfair.

I suspect that an independent Scotland would eventually be accepted back into the EU should it reapply (are we doing that this week? Probably depends on what's most likely to deliver independence), but the people in charge (which isn't the MEPs in the European parliament, they only rubber stamp decisions from above) have made clear that this would take several years, and that entry criteria, such as a commitment to join the Euro, would have to be met. I assume this means that our fiscal deficit would have to be reduced significantly beforehand, as this is a current entry requirement.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/10/european-commission-independent-scotland-would-have-join-queue/

I have no doubt that there is a degree of warm feeling towards Scotlandin Europe, but we would be coming from a weak negotiating position (it's not like we'd be massive net contributors like the UK as a whole) and would have to accept pretty much what was on offer. It's pretty clear that our terms and conditions would be different to what they are currently, as the UK negotiated all kinds of exceptions and special arrangements that we simply wouldn't be able to demand.

Of course, there is also the much bigger and more pertinent question of why you'd even want to rip us out of the UK, where we share all our institutions, infrastructure, defence forces, currency, language, history, culture, and who is by far our most valuable trading partner, to rejoin an EU whose market share has been pretty stagnant at best. This might make sense if you see the UK as some kind of oppressor and want freedom at any costs, but for most of us this seems a pretty drastic step for questionable gain.

I didn't say they wouldn't. I simply believe Scotland could and should decide for ourselves what to do with regard to the EU, and everything else. And I am stating my belief and reasoning showing why Scotland could, would and should do this on her own behalf. But no matter what I say I am given a variation of 'but that doesn't matter/that doesn't mean anything' etc.

Oh hi youcannot.

Nyx, I think what you're seeing is simply people disagreeing with you about what is important. You clearly believe that complete self determination is the most important factor, and would be willing to pay a high price for that. I (and I suspect others) believe that we've done pretty well out of the Union, I'm happy with the large amount of freedom we already have to run Scotland day to day, and I think that ripping us out of the UK is a drastic and backwards step that is not worth the pain.

Hi

Indeed.

There's no reason I can see to think that the EU wouldn't have Scotland back. But it's going to want a deal that works for the EU as a whole.

x-posting sorry. Pesky slow computer.

"I have no doubt that there is a degree of warm feeling towards Scotlandin Europe, but we would be coming from a weak negotiating position (it's not like we'd be massive net contributors like the UK as a whole) and would have to accept pretty much what was on offer. It's pretty clear that our terms and conditions would be different to what they are currently, as the UK negotiated all kinds of exceptions and special arrangements that we simply wouldn't be able to demand. "

This is no longer relevant because of brexit. Our current terms and conditions are going to be no more! So whatever Scotland could negotiate for our trade and conditions etc will almost necessarily be better than whatever TM and her merry crew can or will get. They are not even willing to let Scottish MPs have a say at all. Remember the Scottish people are sovereign, supposedly. I expect you are happy for TM to do whatever she wants in your name but I am not.

Well, no, you. I honestly believe that Scotland would be better off out of the union, financially as well as socially and as you seem to think is my only care, for self respect. I genuinely don't believe the union is good for Scotland at all. Currently yes, we are doing OK from Barnett consequentials but this is unusual.

I have a strong feeling that our devolved government will be a thing of the past if the conservatives win again. The EU powers over agriculture and fishing will not come back to us. Any tax raising powers we are allowed are simply to trap the SNP. I would be happy with fiscal autonomy but that will never happen.

Our current terms and conditions are going to be no more!

Obviously, because we're leaving the EU.

So whatever Scotland could negotiate for our trade and conditions etc will almost necessarily be better than whatever TM and her merry crew can or will get.

This seems highly unlikely as the UK is a lot bigger and has a lot more bargaining chips than in independent Scotland would have. Scotland would be a net drain on the EU, at least initially, because of our much weaker economy, so it's unlikely that the EU will give us favourable terms.

They are not even willing to let Scottish MPs have a say at all. Remember the Scottish people are sovereign, supposedly. I expect you are happy for TM to do whatever she wants in your name but I am not.

Actually, I think this is only true for Scottish SNP MPs, which is quite reasonable in my opinion as the SNP have made it very clear that they are not on the side of the UK, and I suspect they would undermine negotiations. They destroyed any good faith with their actions, no-one else is to blame. And yes, I trust TM a lot more than I trust the SNP, whose intentions have been made more than clear in recent months, although she will still be held to account by parliament. Also, I imagine that Scottish Tory MPs (as part of the governing party) will have a say in the Brexit negotiations and will represent our interests. With luck, we'll have many more to choose from soon.

I genuinely don't believe the union is good for Scotland at all.

As I said, and others believe that it is.

I have a strong feeling that our devolved government will be a thing of the past if the conservatives win again.

This sounds like pure paranoia to me. Recent acts have actually strengthened the Scottish parliament.

The EU powers over agriculture and fishing will not come back to us.

Well, they weren't with us in the first place so 'coming back' isn't really the right phrase, but I think we will get appropriate powers - in a manner that doesn't harm the internal UK market (including Scotland). Seems reasonable to me.

Any tax raising powers we are allowed are simply to trap the SNP.

The SNP are incompetent all on their own - they don't need the UK government to 'trap' them. Besides, haven't they constantly been complaining about a lack of powers?

Anyone seen the videos of SNP campaigners intimidating and harassing Conservative campaigners? It's disgusting. There was in incident in Midlothian (Dalkeith, I think) a couple of weeks ago and a video on Twitter today made by a woman filming herself shouting abuse at Tory leafleters in Stirlingshire.

This type of behaviour is totally unacceptable in a democracy.