General Election - June 8th

[TinfoilHattie]

Another vote.

Can totally understand why May has made this move and it is very interersting from a Scottish perspective. Less about Brexit, more about another independence referendum.

I am very torn on who to vote for. It was exceptionally close between SNP and Lib Dem here last time round so it will probably be Lib Dem, but if polls show more chance of the Conservatives or Labour getting the SNP MP out on his ear I'd vote for either of those too. (V unlikely that Labour would be in that position though). Wouldn't ever vote Green.

I wonder that too NoLottery - they're suggesting Labour for mine because of the 2015 result, but since then the Tories have overtaken them in the popularity stakes and are now predicted twice the vote share of labour. I'll be watching the local elections with interest.

forcing through another Indyref against the will of the people. Why do you keep trotting this line out? You missed out the word some. Like i keep hearing on here, Nicola Sturgeon doesnt represent all of Scotland (even though she actually does, that's her job, just that some people dont agree with her views) . Well can i just remind you that your views dont represent all of Scotland neither. Just under 50% of voters want independence, and contrary to your claims, want another Indyref.

Nolottery, I'm certainly not a "diehard fan of Indy for gut voting reasons" ffs. I believe an independent Scotland will be very well able to pay all her bills and could actually do very well with control of our own economics and not being pillaged by Westminster and made to believe we are uniquely unfit to be independent even though we have exports, industries, oil and an educated population. We want to allow immigration which will expand our tax base and help our industries. Initially yes, we will struggle a bit to get up and running and on our feet, but it can be done and will be worth it. But I can argue all day and you just dismiss everything I say and believe. I can't give figures but just about everyone, admitted pre indyref in 2014 that an independent Scotland could work.

The clue is in the under 50% just

For clarity then, the SNP are trying to force through another Indyref against the will of the clear majority of the people.

This is not my opinion, it's based on all of the many polls, not one of which has shown majority support for independence since the last referendum. The absolute highest support has been 49%, but typically it is around 45%, 10 points lower than those who don't want independence. Furthermore, support for another indyref in NS's stated time scale is even lower.

Perhaps you should remind NS that it is her job to represent all of the Scottish people - she seems to struggle with the concept.

just 30% of Scots want an independence vote before Brexit...about 15% a few years after brexit - the majority of Scots (over 50%) don't want another independence referendum - EVER.

Ignoring the fact that that the actual majority of Scottish people don't want independence or even a vote ... less than a third of Scots want indyref2 in the next few years ... since when has a third been representative of 'the will of the people'?
People are making the point that NS doesn't talk for the Scottish people because she has said she did - more than once - even if she did then back tracked to say the Scottish Parliament.

She says she has a mandate - but we were told more than once in campaigns that a vote for the SNP wasn't really a vote for independence or even indyref2. (It was once in a generation after all)
She has back tracked linking a vote for the SNP in the upcoming GE to Indyref2...because it appears to be unpopular - a vote loser.
Which is a bit of a problem for her - as now she can't play as much on the fact that the nasty Tories in Westminster aren't listening to Scotland again - ignoring the will of the Scottish people.
And she is dodging around whether iScotland would try to go straight back into the EU or not - seeing as 30% of SNP supporters voted for Brexit.

The SNP are all smoke and mirrors - fake and devious - but it seems like (or I am hoping at least) at last the mirrors are shattering. People are seeing the SNP for what they really are ...

Nicola Sturgeon cant represent every individual Scottish person's view any more than Theresa May can with every British person. However Theresa May's party has won the most UK votes so she and her party get to push their mandate and represent UK. Ditto with Nicola Sturgeon and her party, they get to represent Scotland. Thats how politics work. Whilst getting a majority of 50.1% is required for a referendums, in elections its whoever gets the most votes, regardless if its 46% or 36%. Doesnt actually matter if the majority doesnt agree with them. If Scotland as a whole doesn't want another indyref then they need to stop voting in SNP and other pro independence parties. Until then unionists need to suck it up that they are not the majority power at Holyrood.

Scottish people didn't want brexit by a bigger margin than you're talking about. Scottish people on the whole don't want conservative governments.

Agreed, Justnowords

Initially yes, we will struggle a bit to get up and running and on our feet

I would say this is a massive understatement as everything (government, economy, defence, all our institutions) has to be disentangled from the UK and set up from scratch. We are currently a massively divided country on the brink of recession. This would not be pretty.

but it can be done and will be worth it
I totally accept that you believe this, but whether it's 'worth it' is entirely a matter of opinion. Personally, I don't think hatred of the Tories is a good enough reason to put everyone through this, and actually I don't think the rUK is that different from us anyway. We already have the power to shape everything bar foreign affairs and defence, and can achieve much more as part of a greater union of nations in the UK.

I can't give figures but just about everyone, admitted pre indyref in 2014 that an independent Scotland could work.

Did they? I remember the majority of economists at the time saying it was lunacy (and would be even more so now that we're on the brink of recession). Figures aren't just a 'nice to have' they're absolutely central to the argument. You can't seriously expect people to support independence on the blind hope that it will all be OK because Nicola says so? We've been having this debate for years and there's still no sensible plan for absolute fundamentals like what currency we will use and who will underwrite it.

Maybe Nicola should just press on and let the devil take the hindmost. If there was indyref2 tomorrow, she'd lose, and be finished as a politician. And we'd get peace from the nationalists for the next few election cycles.

If Scotland as a whole doesn't want another indyref then they need to stop voting in SNP and other pro independence parties.

Perhaps if Nicola Sturgeon stopped trying to claim that a vote for the SNP wasn't a vote for independence, and was honest that every vote would be taken as support for independence, they would.

"but it can be done and will be worth it
I totally accept that you believe this, but whether it's 'worth it' is entirely a matter of opinion. Personally, I don't think hatred of the Tories is a good enough reason to put everyone through this, and actually I don't think the rUK is that different from us anyway. We already have the power to shape everything bar foreign affairs and defence, and can achieve much more as part of a greater union of nations in the UK."
This is where we just totally disagree. We have power to achieve everything bar foreign affairs and defense? We do not. It's simply not true. And saying I want independence just because of hatred of the Tories is insulting.

This GE will be fascinating. No voters all over Scotland are looking at tactically voting the SNP out. Nicola's mandate is going to melt before her eyes.

Perhaps if Nicola Sturgeon stopped trying to claim that a vote for the SNP wasn't a vote for independence, and was honest that every vote would be taken as support for independence, they would. How clever you must be to know why everyone voted SNP. And how stupid those SNP voters are, not even knowing what they were voting for themselves

Nyx I was not trying to insult you - I thought I remembered you saying that in one of our many previous exchanges on the subject, but I wasn't referring to just you anyway. The SNP campaign seems to be completely centred around keeping the evil Tories out of Scotland, so it appears the campaign does have this at it's heart.

I do think we have the power to control just about everything that matters in people's day to day life - or we would if we accepted the powers that we were offered. There is more than enough power there to set taxes, attract business, run the NHS/schools/police, and generally make Scotland a success.

Almost every post on my FB about indy has hatred of tories as its baseline. I'm no fan myself but I don't hate them enough to punch myself in the face which to me, is what indy would be.

There was tactical voting at the last GE. Unionist parties were very vocal about it. Personally i think it would work, but only if the vast/nearly all unionist parties joined to together so each constituency was a two horse race between the SNP and one unionist party. But atm each constituency will most likely have SNP and then at least Tory/Labour/LibDem. Not every party member will jump ship and vote for whoever is most likely to oust SNP. The unionist vote will still be split 3 ways. They need to be more like the Greens, who I read have said will not stand in constituencies where it would be detrimental to SNP. I think David Mundell's constituency in particular.

How clever you must be to know why everyone voted SNP. And how stupid those SNP voters are, not even knowing what they were voting for themselves hmm

I have no idea where this comes from. I do not claim to know why every voter votes SNP, but I do know several who voted because they believe the SNP to be socialists, and were reassured by Nicola's claims that another independence referendum would not be sought unless there was clear and sustained public support for one (I believe she defined that as 60% support for at least 12 months). Many of these same people are now appalled that their votes are being used as a 'mandate' for an Indyref, and feel personally betrayed. There are many policies in a manifesto, and it's unlikely that a voter agrees with all of them.

It's all very well saying that they voted for Pro-indy parties so what did they expect, but when the leader of that party is explicitly saying that their vote won't be taken as support for independence, as she is again incidentally, it's disingenuous at best to then claim that that voter support represents support for Indyref.

Totally agree with serious. Lots of unionists have voted SNP, the statistics prove it. They remain unionists so they certainly weren't hoping for another indyref.

But SNP hasn't used their vote share as the basis for Indyref 2. So not sure why your SNP voting friends feel 'betrayed'.Voting for SNP (and Greens) at Holyrood gives them the legal/democratic means to request an Indyref (and I believe that you would have to be niave or have no understanding not to realise that) , but isn't the reasoning for requesting one. The SNP have stated they believe the Brexit vote gives them the mandate for asking for one (a material change in circumstances).

Morris, I havent read any statistics showing that at all. Have done a quick google and cant seem to find anything relevant neither. Perhaps you could point me to the right website?

Not that I want to doubt you, but I find it hard to believe that a substantial amount SNP support is made up of unionists.

The argument is the same whether its Holyrood or Westminster. There are many policies in a manifesto and so many reasons why a person might support a party, and before every election NS has said it's not about independence, and she repeatedly said she wouldn't move until there was clear and sustained support for one. The Greens were even worse - they explicitly said in their manifesto they wouldn't support and Indyref unless there was clear public support for one (which I think they defined as a million signatures on a petition for one). I hardly think it's the fault of the electorate that the politicians decided to go against their word.

The SNP argument on Brexit doesn't stack up though. Scotland apparently needs Indyref2 to choose its path after Brexit, but the polls consistently show that the majority of people of Scotland don't want Indyref2, even after Brexit. On top of that, the SNP is now wavering on whether to rejoin the EU anyway because their own supporters are sceptical, which makes the whole argument something of a farce.