What is infidelity?

[ItsGraceActually]

You know, many some men can convince themselves it's only cheating if there was penetrative sex ... some women people feel betrayed if their DP so much as hugs another. Then there's the whole emotional affair.

Sexual infidelity is, in my view, anything they wouldn't want me to see - but that's been twisted, by XPs, to mean I can't bear to see them touch another woman

So I'm re-defining mine as "It's infidelity if your best mate wouldn't like you doing it with his wife." Emotional infidelity I consider potentially more damaging than a one-night stand. I think I would define that as "Discussing personal matters in more depth than you've discussed them with me." Though I'm open to improvements on that!

How about you? Is oral sex unfaithful? Snogging? Kissing on the mouth? On the ear?
I'm a social kisser, and do kiss people on the lips (quickly!) so my questions is also about whether my ordinary behaviour would offend you if I met your H.

What about texts, emails, IMs, etc? I've dropped some male friends because I find their messaging style sleazy - though, strangely, I can take a lot of loaded innuendo from friends on the phone or face-to-face. I haven't figured that one out yet.

Generally, i'd say if you're doing something that either you need to hide from your partner, or that you wouldn't like your partner to do in the same situation.

It depends on the type of kiss and the person doing the kissing. I'm not a kisser so obviously if I kissed someone it wouldn't be innocent. I have a female friend who kisses close friends on the lips, when she leans towards me I turn my face so she gets my cheek .

Men who say that anything short of penetration isn't cheating are liars, or Bill Clinton.

lol @ Bill Clinton! Good point about putting the shoe on the other foot - though cheaters are incapable of doing that in the moment, it seems. I thought I might have more success with the best friend's wife tack. But maybe I'm being a little idealistic ...

I'm never offended if someone turns their cheek, btw - I know we're in England

It's not that they are incapable, they just ignore it. Cheaters are selfish, pure and simple, so to avoid guilt they just think of themselves and nothing else.

Pretty much any contact, physical, verbal, or even just a look can be sexual. It all depends on the intent.

The intent makes the distinction, I think.

The excuses then simply confirm it.

Why do you kiss people on the lips?? If I saw someone do that to my DH, I would definitely be WTF.

It's all very well to name the intent - and I guess we all know what you mean! But the intent can be misinterpreted, and certainly will be when you tell your partner you didn't like it!

giraffe, it's a combination of having lived in Latin countries and working in meeja. I'm used to it and like it! As stated, though, I'm not offended by refusal; I know I'm in England now. Would you still think wtf if I did to you as well?

In case anybody's wondering, I'm trying to clarify things that caused problems in my past due to lack of clarity. If I ever get into another relationship (doubtful as that seems right now), I want to know exactly where I'm standing wrt this and other matters.

On reflection, I'm not even sure the "best friend's wife" boundary is sufficient. My exes were uncomfortably intimate with their BF's wives ... there was a whole lot of sloppy-boundary stuff going on all over the place, unsurprisingly under the circs.

I want definitions!!

Yes, I would still think wtf if you did it to me. It's not something that I'm familiar with in my social circle and I think it would make me feel very uncomfortable.

If I saw you doing it to loads of people, I'd be less worried about you doing it to my DH, but I'd still not like it.

Anything my DH/ I wouldn't openly do/ talk about in front of each other/ to the other's knowledge..

(We both have close friends of the opposite sex and neither are jealous.)

If anyone kissed my partner on the lips, he'd be 'WTF'! Hence, if someone tried, I'd quite possibly laugh. It would just be a comical scenario.

I like your personal redefinitions of fidelity, Grace. They make perfect sense.

For those men who think that only penetrative sex counts, ask them how they would feel about their wife having oral sex performed on her by another man. Is that cheating?

The thing is, we could all create all the definitions in the world and a new partner might agree with those definitions but when someone's overstepping the mark, they tend to know it anyway. They will also find any and every way to excuse or justify it.

Going with what feels comfortable and what doesn't works well for me. My definitions regarding trust and fidelity surround my instincts more than anything else. I've defined to myself that I'll never mistrust myself again

You've hit it on the head, there, EM!
"I've defined to myself that I'll never mistrust myself again"

That's what I've been forgetting ... I'm thinking of all those times I couldn't answer "What exactly is your problem with that (you insecure mad bitch)?" - when the real problem was his invalidation of my feelings.

Hmm, maybe I don't need such crystal clarity after all. Cheers

And again ...

NM defined to me what he considered honourable behaviour towards me, regarding others. I happened to agree. Job done! We were in the fortunate position of being friends for quite some time before, in case anyone concludes from that, that he's a dictatorial pillock far from it.

Sorry Grace, xposts.

Never forget that one lovely! Your feelings, your instincts deserve validation and respect above anything else. If someone can't give you that, they can't be trusted with anything

Grace and EM. Just going through this. I had a gut feeling and got lied to my face: you're paranoid, not true, ur seing ghosts.

Yeah, really .

Found the lying worse than whatever went on. Still not sure what exactly happened but being preggers will go to GUM and find out...

EcoMouse - great name BTW - that's exactly how DH and I feel.

It's like an un-written rule book within our marriage. We both know what's acceptable behaviour to ourselves and it matches the other persons too!!

It's very much if you wouldn't like it done to you, don't do it IYKWIM.

Cloudy

Just read your post...... are you ok?

Why thank you Mouse they'll have pest control visiting at this rate!

Cloudy, so sorry. I was pregnant too, spent the morning of my EDD at GUM . Have you started a thread? If you'd like to 'talk' please do, more chance of it receiving undivided attention. So many of us here have been there x

Ouch, Cloudy, I hear your pain - and anger, that's healthy!

It's very peculiar, what untrustworthy people can do to a trusting spirit, isn't it? I actually SAW him, in a car where he said he wasn't, with a woman he hadn't mentioned, late at night ... and doubted my own eyesight. He loved that Shaggy song, "It wasn't me!" Hahaha.

How are you coping?

Shiney, I agree about lying. I think I used to be much more forgiving about "bending the truth" but I'm afraid I'm not likely to give an inch in the future. Which is a pity, really - especially as it means I'd have to tell any future partner how much I spend on cigarettes haircuts

That is funny, i was just raising this on another thread there I wrote (kinda about the nature of sex)

"Also about communication. If one person wants a one night stand but the other wants love/something more...

If both people get what they want, fine. No kids/animals/relatives and a wide age range a la Ronnie Wood and Katya is a bit screwey as well...

But really sex is trivial in itself.

It's interesting on MN the phrase emotional relationships. Betrayal without sexual contact. There is an opposite isn't there? What if a poster here loves their hubby, their kids, but sees life as short or whatever. Then they once in a while/when the opportunity arises has a one night stand with a stranger, for kicks, nothing more, never sees them again.

Is that better than an emotional affair?"

And Gay40 - It would be fine if i could watch and we never saw the other guy again...

Oh Grace, I know. Been doubting camera angles, trying to explain it away, etc.

And he told me his ex-wife was a bit of a dumbo who could only flick through grazia and that's it. Alarm bells should have rung when I met her and found her funny and warm

Thanks MouseF, I am so busy with my toddler and when she's asleep I'm rifling through docs and packing a stealth bag (Putting important certs and copies into innocent looking night gowns, etc). Taking all my degree papers, dd's docs, etc.

I'm in a muslim country so will def not go to a GUM here. I'd get jailed and deported for stuff here. I will leave for Europe in 2 weeks and get tested there. Not really sure what I should say...probably the truth. That I suspect my H from shagging around and picking up the odd STI, etc.

Eco, I've heard part of your story and I am so very for your little one. I hope you're both okay now. What a bloody bastard to do this. I will go to bed soon, it still hasn't sunk in properly...but when it does I might PM you. I feel like it's not real, it hasn't happened to me.

I've never cheated (apart from snogged 2 boys in the same night when I was in college). I have always made allowances for H and have supported his career by moving abroad and twice within the last 2 years.

I'm tetchy about flirty emails, though I wouldn't call that cheating but it certainly is a betrayal. Kissing is cheating in my eyes, groping, too. Any penetration and I'd dump him, key his car and cut a hole into his tailored biz suits.

If only I had proper proof on my H I'd go on a rampage through the house.