What is infidelity?

[ItsGraceActually]

You know, many some men can convince themselves it's only cheating if there was penetrative sex ... some women people feel betrayed if their DP so much as hugs another. Then there's the whole emotional affair.

Serial monogamy might allow one to claim some sort of moral high ground but may or may not be better for kids.

I am speaking from experience to some extent. Someone very close to me had several women during marriage life. Now that person and partner are older; there is more openess about this and they are happy that they stayed together. I think age can bring a different perspective to all of this.

I do think that some people are a lot less bothered by 'infidelity' than others. WHich is why I am unimpressed by those who always want to go barging in to other people's relationships when they discover that someone they know is having some sort of relationship with someone other than the Official Partner. IF a person is choosing to take no action over his/her partner's breach of monogamy because s/he has decided that, on balance, it doesn't matter as much as the partner's amiability, financial support, help with DC, whatever, then it is NO ONE ELSE'S BUSINESS. Officious little monogamist shitheads muscling in and insisting that action is taken do far more harm than good.

Ummm, but, SGB - if the complicit partner isn't bothered about it, s/he can just say so can't they? Or make soothing noises; whatever. Surely the "monogamist shitheads" are concerned about a friend being duped?

I have told friends, knowing that they beleived themselves to be in a monogamous relationship. Otoh, I was (or had convinced myself I was) fairly laid back about X#1's adventures abroad. Sometimes people tried to tell me; I just thanked them.

If you're getting all angry about monogamists, doesn't that make you an over-defensive polygamist??

TD, essentially, whatever relationship type a couple decide between themselves is entirely up to them, including one partners acceptance, or not, of the other partner reneging on agreements/promises/boundaries.

I know from personal experience that this form of deceit and any other would be deal breakers for me. It would be the height of selfishness and arrogance for a partner to have any expectation of a continuation of a relationship, if they chose to change the terms of it.

It isn't about moral high-ground, I think it's realistic to expect a partner to fulfil an agreement. If they can't, they are welcome to leave, after all!

I believe it's incredibly unhealthy not to mention unfair for children to become entwined in webs of lies and deceit and sometimes from relatively young ages, just so that their 'adults' can get their rocks off, as and how they choose.

SGB, maybe they just care? If you knew a friend was being duped in any scenario, would you just stand back and watch? If you thought a friend was being duped, would you tactfully attempt to ascertain whether this was the case or turn a blind eye?

I do think some people step in to stir things up but for the most part, others do so with genuine intentions. Besides, if the potentially unaware partner is in fact aware and accepting of their situation, what harm does the raising of the subject by an outsider cause?

"I believe it's incredibly unhealthy not to mention unfair for children to become entwined in webs of lies and deceit and sometimes from relatively young ages".....

This is NOT what I am describing. Talking about couples who are happy to let one party "discretely" do extra marital stuff keeping it away from friends and family. However much we disapprove, I am observing that this occasionally works for them. The RL example that I referred to above, wasn't a matter for the children who have grown up to be quite normal balanced people.

I am NOT recommending "infidelty" but I find myself explaining over and over that we shouldn't impose our own judgements about other people's attitude to their partner's sexual activity. And this doesn't always mean detailed disclosure by one partner to the other.

yes, what harm does it do to "tell" if there is a non-monogamous agreement ?

Surely, if all is in the open, everybody is happy, there would be no secrecy would there ? No sneaking around, no deceit.

I think not telling a friend (and I mean only friends...not interfering with relative strangers) just colludes, tbh

because if all is fine...why does it have to be secret ? Because someone has to maintain a reputation as faithful ? Why bother trying to please the "monogamist shitheads" then ? Why the pretence ? It smacks of shame and embarassment, and why be ashamed if it is nobody else's business?

hypocritical, I call it

AF- perhaps some people don't want to be labelled. Perhaps some people are bothered what other judgemental folk might think.

It is a bit like saying that you any gay person who doesn't want to "come out" is a hypercritical? It shouldn't have to be black and white? Why should it be?

hypercritical hyprocritical

Because too many mundanes are incapable of leaving other people alone. That's why those who have unconventional set ups tend to keep it quiet. It's very wearying to have people clutching you with clammy hands and recommending their favourite therapist or the power of prayer or whatever bullshit they think will somehow compel you into conformity. And that's leaving out the people who decide to out you to the rest of town, or to your employers, or seek out your partner's other partners and berate or attack him/her.
Conduct your own relationships how you and your partners see fit, but the world would improve if people could just get over the compulsiveness of the monogamy cult and stop trying to enforce its rules on those who are not interested.

I don't give a toss (or have the time or energy to give much thought to) how others choose to conduct their lives or relationships, to be honest. I don't understand why you, TD and SGB have so much of an issue with even potential judgmentalism?

We're all entitled to hold views and I certainly hold an ideal of what a monogamous relationship means, to me, in my life. There seems to be an assumption that those expectations are projected onto other peoples relationships? No.

Thanks Grace, this thread has been a help in clarifying some of my thoughts

Mine, too, EM: when I (one day) have my Fixed-Term Renewable Exclusivity Celebration , I shall dedicate it to EcoMouse!

That should confuse anybody who wasn't already bewildered ...

A Fixed TREC? I hope it's more of a walk in the park this time 'round Grace! Very best wishes, for when the time comes

EcoMouse- am only commenting on intolerance towards diverse relationship arrangements. And the refusal to recognise that gays, infidels/polygamists may not want to come out.

I don't have "so much of an issue". I am only arguing the side just as you are arguing your side! Why do you say that I have "so much of an issue" more than you have? Is it because my view is unconventional/uncomfortable? By the way I am not an infidel/polygamists; can barely spell the word but I feel a certain degree of prejudging here.

regards

As far as I was aware, the subject at hand was infidelity, not 'diverse relationship arrangements'.

It seems likely you 'have an issue with potential judgmentalism' because you have felt the need to raise it time and time again throughout the course of the thread, despite most posters restricting the content of their posts to their thoughts and feelings about their own situations or from their point of view regarding scenarios raised by others.

(If you would like to quote me, please do so accurately! Otherwise it would appear as though you are attempting to create a dispute out of nothing )

EcoMouse- I thought that defining infidelty and therefore discussing relationship configurations was central to the discussion?

Also, I don't understand why you don't consider it reasonable for me to point what you are referring to as "potential judgementalism"; particularly for those claiming a moral position on the subject.

Here is an interesting thing: my DW would (i think) certainly not opt for non-monogamous set up if I asked a million times. Only a few weeks I worked quite late (not unusual) and when I walked through the door DW pointed out a clear adult palm print on my trousers. For a good 15 mins or more she called me a sod and worse and asked me what was going on. Of course I am 100pc certain that I was at the office earning a living so it was easy for me to treat it as ridiculous and I explained all except I genuinely couldn't account for a palm print on my trousers. I help prepare the kids in the morning for school which involves lots of skin cream but the palm print looked a little too big to be any of the kids.

I think that she probably believes me but there must be some residual doubt? Yet, I think that there are more important things in our relationship and she hasn't mentioned it further nor appears bothered by it since my explanation of innocence. Sometimes these things are not such a big deal in secure relationships.

Of course, there is the possibility that this is brought up another time if we argue but I doubt that it will. I am confident that she believes my innocence but there must be some doubt in her mind?

This is a bit of a ramble but I think that some people are more bothered than others about this.....just a view

Yes, I trusted my X absolutely. Right up until I saw a video of him f*cking OW, the evening before our baby's due date.

I trusted when I knew he had picked her number up, trusted in his explanation of who she was, if they were still in communication. When I heard rumours that he'd been seen kissing someone else, I trusted him when he said he hadn't.

Symbolic of a secure relationship? No, symptomatic of denial. Not clever, stupid!

I probably am more 'bothered' about this than some, which is why I've found this thread a useful gauge. I'll never forgive myself for becoming submerged in a denial which nearly lead to the blinding of my baby (he gave us chlamydia, due to affair). I ended it as soon as I saw indisputable proof but it was too late.

Some of my closest friends are swingers, many are gay! I have no issue with other peoples choices, as I've said, repeatedly. Understandably, I think, I do have ideals of my own, which I would hope to apply to my own life and for which I make no apology.

Eco, your experiences just confirm to me even more, that if a friend of mine was being cheated on, I would tell her

Because I would like her to know what she was dealing with, that is all, and what she was potentially being exposed to. If she thn said, well actually we don't have amonogamous r'ship/I am his 5th wife/we don't have sex but he is allowed to find it elsewhere/he is gay but wants the front of marriage/insert unconventional set-up of your choice that would be ok by me. I wouldn't do any of those ridiculous things that sgb suggests to "turn" her back into a mundane, if she was happy with the situation.

But, I would want to know, that is for sure and I would think a very lot less of any friend of mine that kept something from me

EcoMouse- i don't know what to say about the harm that you X has done to your DS and you. I understand your perspective very well and the fact that in RL you are indeed very tolerant. I hope that my perspective causes you no offence.

Kind regards

TD...if your wife was playing away (and you didn't know, it hadn't been agreed etc), would you want a friend to tell you ?

TD, thank you and you've caused me no offence. I try to tentatively (and quite possibly, defensively!) explore issues surrounding this subject but it's never going to be an enjoyable experience as such.

AF, same here. I should clarify, I didn't hear that X was seen kissing someone else (chronology has gone to the dogs! Apologies), I heard that he'd 'been seen' with someone else. Unfortunately, this was too vague for me to act upon, particularly in the face of his denial.

I do wish someone had felt able to come to me with a little more conviction or proof and I hope I would have acted upon it.

AF- good question. It depends. If we weren't getting on, or my sex life was rotten, then I guess I would want to know. Not sure if I would if everything was hunky dory. Let me have a think...but I am thinking what is the point? Got to be careful with my answer as my DW reads the odd MN thread .

I have known DW for a long time now and I think my friendship with her is more important than this stuff. And I am not trivialising affairs. This is a complicated subject and we mustn't pretend that there aren't a few grey shades.

eco...maybe you wouldn't have acted on it straight away, had someone come to you with proper proof

I get that sometimes denial is a strong motivator to do nothing

but with hindsight, I know I would look back and thank the ones that tried to open my eyes....and give me choices and free will, instad of colluding with the horrible deceit