What is infidelity?

[ItsGraceActually]

You know, many some men can convince themselves it's only cheating if there was penetrative sex ... some women people feel betrayed if their DP so much as hugs another. Then there's the whole emotional affair.

I'm idealistic to a ridiculous extent it seems.

Re infidelity as an escape route from abuse:

I've never had my head turned when in a relationship, no matter how 'bad' the relationship. I don't see that as a bad thing. Were I to have left even an abusive relationship on the back of an affair, I would have had trouble living with myself, I think.

Two wrongs don't make a right and all that. I just wouldn't see someone else's poor behaviour as justification to go ahead and behave like a twat, because I'm not. It's not even so much a moralistic thing but more about retaining my understanding of and respect for myself, whatever the circumstances. Remaining 'me'.

I passionately agree Eco.

It is all about personal responsibility and the understanding that no-one else is solely responsible for excitement, great sex and fun in a relationship - you both have that responsibility. If you've genuinely made efforts to give those things to the relationship and your partner won't engage, then you have a choice to leave, with dignity and self-respect.

Well, yes, that's how everyone would want it. If monogamy were always so straightforard, even SGB might be tempted! No, scrub that

Clearly, people like my friend weren't out to test-drive a new partner. He didn't know his feelings for his wife weren't enough until he began developing stronger ones for OW - she was a friend first. I know all about "Not Just Friends" but this is how it happens - should people then walk away from a truer love, choosing instead to 'fix' the one they ill-advisedly committed to?

Incidentally, WWIFN, he doesn't speak disrespectfully to his second wife. We all noticed it - though he didn't. Funny how people's real sentiments can show up in unconscious remarks.

My thinking has moved so far away from the way it used to be, I'm expecting to find myself on a backswing any moment now! I spent half my life 'working on' my marriages; being good enough; being pretty/charming/sexy; communicating; understanding, etc. In fact I tried so hard, I didn't even notice they were abusing me. I wouldn't do any of it now. If my partner seemed to prefer someone or something else to me - I'd let him go. No discussion, no counselling, no second thoughts. Either you want me or you don't.

That's really why EcoMouse's thought about fixed-term relationships appealed! They might work better without the lifetime commitment.

WWIFN, phew! I feel at odds with the world on this subject, sometimes.

Grace, I'm starting to think, if it isn't that straight forward, it isn't monogamy. True monogamy seems to be almost a rarity now but I refuse to believe it's impossible or unobtainable. The fixed term thing is the 'model' I come back to again and again as my ideal! I think it is most realistic

Re, your friends, if they were friends first, it clarifies how his feelings could have developed without necessarily entering an Eaffair, I suppose an Eaffair would then be dependent upon whether those feelings were reciprocal. He would have had to have overstepped a line to be aware of reciprocation, I would think?

I'm just pondering, not noseying

Hi (I'm new).

To be honest if my partner fell for someone I'd be far more upset than if she said 'I decided to scratch an itch'.

If that makes sense?

No it doesn't show insecurity, IMO it shows that in a successful relationship there is a higher emotional level that is and should be only for you and your partner.

If it happened the other way and I explained it meant nothing then hopefully she would see this the sameway.

I am opening myself up on the last statement aren't I?

Well, yes, EM. I think that's what usually happens - deliberate cheating must be the rarer event, surely? They were friends, they grew closer ... they nearly had sex, they called it off ... they missed each other badly, they had A Conversation, they set themselves a deadline (6 weeks, iirc) ... they made their minds up, he told his wife.

He purposefully cheated for those six weeks and I have to say I see why he did. He was facing a painful decision. To go home and ask his wife to discuss would simply have brought the decision forward (indeed, would have forced it.) There was little to discuss; he was not particularly unhappy with W#1, but had discovered new depths of feeling and was trying to interrogate himself.

I know one other couple who were married when they met. She was already in the process of leaving her abusive H, he was bumbling along in a mutually-critical marriage. These two, also, ended their affair when it threatened to become physical. They stayed apart for a year, then spent 2 weeks together.

It's easy for me to say "I don't do married" but I haven't been in the OW situation - my close male friends have always been just close friends. With the first couple, where I knew all 3 participants well, I couldn't find it in myself to call any of them wrong. I shared his conviction that, had he met W#2 first, he wouldn't have married the first time.

Welcome, hora

I've always thought that way! I'm not sure I what I think now, though. Every time you scratch that itch, you're running the risk of unleashing something major. It could be that your itch-scratcher turns into a psychodrama; it could be that you develop an overwhelming crush; it could be lurve. The minute anything gets unleashed, it impacts on the home relationship. And what if you thought it was lurve but turns out to have been a crush?

Ohhh, I don't know

If I ever fall in love again I'm going to ask for a 3-year commitment, with contracts! (And a party.)

ItsGraceActually - so why three years? Why not 6 yrs 11 mths in honour of the 7 year rule. I guess the tenure could become one of those dinner party conversation like, "what period did you fix your mortgage rates".

so, if you found yr partner had logged onto a dating site and had put single and looking, etc and was emailing flirtatious emails ( which i found and confronted him on )and he said he just got lonely at night and wanted to chat ( i have found his msm list its huge ),,.....is this a betrayal? and on top of this he has an exclusive close ex that he visits for several days when he does go,( tho i know she's honorable ) i feel an emotional betrayal as they are so close, he treats her like a partner when hes there - apart from sex- he says he misses her /loves her. he's only become more seperate from her after the birth of our daughter. he even told me when i came back from a w.e. away he'd chatted to a woman from the site while i was away! 'but she's a gomper and over 60' was his excuse...oh and finally when i was pregnant i found a text to a woman living nr his ex, who he'd asked to meet for a coffee?? i never feel secure with him.

p.s. this is also complex as we have a kind of arrangement as we both wanted a child, and he's lost his boys -more or less- to his ex..and missed them,.so we arent in a marriage or anything like

Mop....the scenario you describe would make me feel I wasn't in a monogamous relationship

Are you meant to be in one ? Does he know that ?

Heck, mopsera, I'd certainly feel betwrayed by any one of those things - let alone all of them

It sounds like you feel betrayed (and he's making excuses) so you don't seem to be in a purely practical arrangement ... why are you putting up with this??!

I am interested in where cheeky texts/IMs become cheating - but your partner crossed all of my lines long ago!

TD - 3 years because science says it takes up to 2 years for the love/lust hormones to fade away, if they're going to

"Will you enter into a 3-year renewable exclusivity contract with me?" doesn't sound quite so romantic, but does feel more achievable!!

Mopsera: if he's told you what he's doing, then he;s not offering you monogamy and has no intention of being monogamous. Have you told him that you want monogamy, or is it just a case of you saying nothing and feeling hurt. You are not powerless here, you know. You can choose to end the relationship if it isn't working for you. But I'm afraid you can't make another person be monogamous if that person doesn't want to.

Grace, it was deliberate cheating in x's case. Sorry for appearing dim, I can have a mental fug surrounding this subject that takes some work to get through at times!

If someone who drinks a lot and when drunk tends to 'stray', then have blank patches that tend to create a smokescreen surrounding those events, are they deliberately cheating? I had friends stuck in that particular cycle

Agh! School run!!

Hmm, EM, that's what X#2 did! The effect of his 'smokescreen' was gaslight. I believed he couldn't remember what he did when drunk, but now I don't think so ... Anyway, what's the difference? It means you're in a relationship with a partner who's supposedly sharing his life with you, but really has a separate existence from which you are excluded.

I'd not want to try & ban alcohol from any future relationship but if I couldn't find out within, say, 24 hours, what he'd been doing and where, I'd consider it an infidelity. In the broadest sense, sure, but it amounts to "If you're not with me you can live without me."

Sorry for your friends

hi in answer; well, i guess i realised after these emails that the problem is we never had a clear arrangment or relationship from the start...he was always upfront about his ex but only to the extent that he siad she would always mean alot to him, but i know now that when he visits they are more like a couple than i realsied; he told me they cuddle etc and she still refers to herself 'yours' and says things like love you/ miss you etc .

also he was NOT upfront about the plentyofish dating chat, i discovered that beacuse he was behaving differently; he also is not himself on the site; saying he is single; and looking for a rel.

and yes that DOES make me feel betrayed no matter how detatched i try to be,

finally when i met him he said he was looking for a younger version of his ex ( she couldnt give him kids) which rang alarm bells; and spent alot of our first year talking about her or jokingly sayinng jokes like i'll haver to send you to my ex for lessons

but on top of this he is critical and points out faults; never really saying well done bit thinks his ex was wonderful

i agree i need to take responsibilty here;i was 40 and desperate to have a child too; mid life crisis time

mop...get rid of this gobshite

you can do better than that

all this kissing on the lips etc is all very well, but what if your partner spent there time while you were out wanking themselves silly to girls on "sex webcams", and when confronted says "it's the same as looking at page three and it's my money"

is that considered cheating?, there's no physical contact between parties as such

Mop: He doesn't sound very nice, so why not detach from him and have contact only as co-parents? TBH I do think that you have perhaps been in denial over the fact that he has never been particularly bothered about having a relationship with you - but there is no need to waste any more time and effort trying to make a relationship happen. He's Not That Into You so move on and find someone who is.
Rocketdog: Some people would consider that cheating, others wouldn't. I wouldn't as (like your partner said) there is no physical contact going on and the performers are paid performers, not women who are interested in actually meeting your H and having sex with him. Whether you should accept it or not depends on various factors: is it a case of him preferring to wank when you would like him to have sex with you? Or is it that he has a higher sex drive than you and is dealing with it by wanking rather than pressuring you for sex?

Rocketdog: Like SGB, I would only consider the porn thing cheating if it 'took away' from the relationship - that is, if he preferred it to sex with me and/or he stole time from work or household duties to do it. I have more political objections to porn now than I used to, though. I think I'd have a problem with it in general but don't know whether it'd be a deal-breaker for me. You sound pretty angry about it ...?

Mop: You got your lovely DD out of this relationship, and it looks like there's nothing more to gain doesn't it? Take her away with you & start a new life; it'll be great not to have anybody putting you down all the time.

Husband and wife relationship has different levels and it is great if it is all working well as it reinforces everything. Infidelty is not right but I know that it is not quite the black and white scenario that is sometimes painted.

If someone was happy to turn a blind eye to DP having an affair but didn't want to give open consent then what is the moral situation? And what if that was more convenient than a family break up to both sides? That is what I mean about RL not always being black and white. Altho' I do recognise that the situation described above is far different to some of the horrible stories that we read about on MN.

If someone was happy to turn a blind eye, it doesn't necessarily mean they are happy about 'it' (the affair). Potentially choosing a version of denial rather than pain, hurt, logistical messiness? I wouldn't see that as a healthy way to be, TBH.

To me, that scenario reeks of patriarchal entitlement and I know you didn't specify genders TD but it is the archaic mistress model you describe, isn't it?

'Turning a blind eye' just seems such an aged concept. I'd thought generally, peoples awareness and understanding of the importance of emotional and mental good health had progressed somewhat, since the days of oppression by silence being considered a good or right thing.

Stiff upper lip and all that tripe? Jaysus!

"If someone was happy to turn a blind eye to DP having an affair but didn't want to give open consent"

I think the problem implicit in this is dishonesty. If the multi-partnered spouse could say "I'm spending the night with Charles" and the other was okay with that, then you'd have a potentially healthy if unconventional marriage. It'd have to be understood the other could also go off and find themselves a Charlotte, if they wished.

There are marriages like this. It's what the aristos have always done. The French still do it. Seems to be going out of fashion - most likely because serial monogamy is now more of an option? I used to think I could be content with such a marriage, but now I doubt it. Not 100% sure though!

Guys- this isn't about gender. I have seen male and female partners turn a blind eye. Not often but I have seen it. None of us are in a position to judge exact reasons for doing so but I could have a go at guessing that reasons include;
i)dishonesty as you suggest;
ii)not being bothered very much about sex; indeed this does happen to some people at a certain stage in life
iii)just preferring not to talk about things like that.
iv) one party being dependent on the other
v)not really fancying your DP in that way any longer but loving them in a more platonic way

not an exhaustive list but just shows that it is too easy for us to be judgemental about other people's decisions.