It seems DH is plotting to secretly meet an old GF while on a business trip. WWYD?

[CoteDAzur]

He hasn't breathed a word about this to me and it sounds like a rather romantic date.

WWYD?

Oh right, good.

Well I don't have anything useful to add, other than you really seem to have your head screwed on and I wish you the bestest luck that this turns out well xx

If your DH is paying for a plane ticket for her to travel half way round the world I agree that it is probably not terribly good news.

But I would still, say, meet up for dinner with an ex in London or Berlin and not tell DP. Why? There are past lives that were great once but not meant to last, but that are important to revisit from time to time.

Cote, I would never normally advocate snooping, purely on the basis that you always find what you secretly suspect but don't want to know. In your case, seeing as you already know bits, could you go into his email/fb account to see what else has been sent? Possibly cheaper and more immediate than a PI.

Cote, what I am suggesting is that you talk to him. What I was saying earlier was that there is enough that is indisputable, for you to express perfectly legitimate concerns.

It's difficult to piece this story together from the little you have said, but it seems that he hasn't told you about the ongoing correspondence with this woman, or the content of it. He has kept this planned meeting a secret. He hasn't at any stage told you that he intends meeting her next week in the restaurant that has special significance to you as a couple. It would be absurd for him to say at this stage "Oh, sorry, I was meaning to tell you that I'm meeting "X" next week.." and so you have enough as it is to have a conversation about how bad this makes you feel.

I do understand how you might have a competing dialogue in your head, knowing on the one hand that you are right to feel suspicious and uncomfortable, but on the other, bargaining with yourself that you shouldn't break up a family based on a hunch.

But you don't need proof that this is unacceptable behaviour. He wouldn't accept it from you, would he?

People kid themselves all the time that they won't let a friendship go too far and that they don't intend to be unfaithful. But the problem with such friendships is that boundaries get blurred all the time, confidences are shared (even more so via texts and private E mails, actually) and before people know where they are, the friend knows more about the spousal relationship than the spouse knows about the friendship.

Because I know that people involved in these relationships are in denial at every stage of the relationship, I well understand that you want even more proof. Actually in your shoes I would be trying to hack into anything I could, to augment what you already have in terms of information.

But really, you've got enough information already.

So what I am suggesting you do, before that meeting takes place, is to have an honest conversation without game-playing. Tell him what you know and tell him that if he has got any respect for you as a person, he should be honest with you. If you get met with denials and obfuscation, reverse it on him and ask him how he would feel if he had made the same discoveries about a secret friendship of yours.

If he still cannot admit to engaging in an inappropriate secret friendship, in your shoes I would simply say that you do not need proof of anything to leave a marriage. Lack of honesty, secrecy, denials and disrespect are deal-breakers in their own right, at least they are for you.

Have a really deep think about why you are letting this run, too. Is there anything in you that wants to let him hang himself, so that you can exit the marriage with dignity? Has any previous behaviour been met with denials, even though to the majority of onlookers, it has been obvious that he has been lying?

If you want this marriage to be saved - and you want him and not the role he performs in your life, then act now, Cote D'Azur.

Yes, I agree completely with whenwilli.

What you do actually know, to date, is that your DH and his ex have been sending each other secret messages organising to meet in a foreign city for a meal in a romantic place.
He has not told you that he is going away on business next week. There is currently no actual business trip planned. There's perhaps a remote possibility that there's an actual business trip planned and for some reason his secretary doesn't know. But that still leaves this: he's known about the business trip for weeks and not told you. Why? Why wouldn't he just tell you as soon as it was planned?
The only answer to 'why' is because the purpose of the trip is actually to meet the ex, and he's not told you about it yet because he's still not quite sure he's going to go through with it.

His business means that he sometimes needs to go away on very short notice, so he may tell you in the next few days that he needs to go away next week on business. Or he may not.
If he does tell you that he needs to go away, then you don't need a PI. You have your answer. You will know from that that he's lying about the business trip in order to meet another woman. Whether they have sex is not really the issue, is it? He's fabricated a business trip to go abroad and see another woman, in secret.

But he might not go through with it - as she says herself, he might 'get cold feet'. In that case, you're left with this:
Your husband has been secretly messaging an ex-girlfriend for months. He planned to meet her in a foreign city, in a place he has romantic memories of, and he didn't tell you. Presumably, although you'll never know, he would have used the excuse of a business trip. He changed his mind.

The latter scenario is your best case scenario. In that case, you will always be suspicious from now on, you will always want to spy on his messages, you will always want to double check that future business trips are legitimate.
The former scenario is utterly unacceptable even if they don't have sex. Flying another woman to a foreign city and lying to your wife about a fabricated business trip is infidelity on a fairly impressive scale.
The worst case scenario, of course, is that some of his previous business trips have been fabricated as well. That's now up for question.

Talk to him, Cote. Give him his last chance to save this situation.

Bonsoir - I need to ask you something. Please write to me at coastdazur at gmail dot com . Thanks.

WhenwillIfeelnormal- I was thinking of letting this go on a bit longer, perhaps not let him hang himself but catch him with the noose in his hand. That way he can't deny it. Hand in the proverbial cookie jar, in other words.

If I face him now (1) he denies anything inappropriate was ever going to happen, and (2) he knows I have been looking so will be more careful next time.

The shock and awe I have planned for him will I think be more effective at a slightly later stage but of course there is always the danger of it going too far before I step in.

Hi - I've sent you an email.

Hi CoteDAzur,
I am so sorry this is happening to you. FWIW in my experience unless and until you get really indisputable proof, your H will deny and make out you are crazy for imagining things. Even when I had his compromising e-mails up on screen, my H tried to lie his way out of it. He claimed he was sending it to himself. (An e-mail, somewhat cryptic with (decent) photos of him, and also with kisses from H !!! ) I had to offer to send a frank e-mail to the same e-mail address myself, before I got any explanation. He had set up the secret e-mail box for her! Painful. Cheating men lie. I so wanted to believe nothing was amiss. My telephone counsellor from Relate believes that lying and secrecy are in themselves enough to make a relationship non-viable. I told my H this. He promised "no more secrets" but who knows. I will never discover completely what he did, and I feel humiliated. I will never trust him because I know he is capable of lying to me, even when he has been caught out. Mumsnet and Relate have helped me enormously. If I were you I would wait for concrete proof, but what you already know is enough to make your relationship non-viable. I hope my story helps you. I do respect your courage and wish I could give you a big hug, or big gin!

How could he claim that nothing inappropriate was happening? Apart from Bonsoir, who does tend to have an unusual take on fidelity, I don't know a single person who would think it appropriate to be meeting an ex-lover in secret.

It's the secrecy that matters here of course. You haven't been given the opportunity to say how you feel about such a meeting - and people keep these things secret because of two reasons only. They either know they will be unfaithful and don't want it discovered (yet) or they know it's unreasonable behaviour that they wouldn't tolerate in reverse.

It doesn't matter if he denies, does it? Your trust has gone, as well it might.

Why do you need to catch him red-handed? Why do you need to be "right"?

What does it matter if he accuses you of paranoia and jealousy? You know you are right to feel the way you do. You know he would feel even worse.

Imagine telling any one of your friends what he is up to and ask them if they think it's appropriate. Imagine your adult children telling you their partner was doing this and what would be your reaction?

You can already prove an emotional affair - he has already been unfaithful. You don't need a sex act to prove it in your mind, or anyone else's. It will get messier if he has already been sexually unfaithful, or if he becomes so, but technical adultery is rarely used as a ground for divorce in any case. This is unreasonable behaviour by anyone's standards.

You don't need him to sanction your thoughts and feelings. You don't need him to put his hands up and say "it's a fair cop". If he won't admit what he's already done is wrong, proving a technical adultery is superfluous.

I agree with wwifn in some ways but I would be inclined to want to be sure so he couldn't deny anything. Personally I'd suggest us doing something together or a possible event on the night they're supposed to meet and assess his reaction.

Then I'd hire a PI and ask them to observe but call you if the two started heading for his room. (And maybe call and flag a possible dc illness earlier that day such as rash and sickness - make it sound a bit serious, stressing he ought to have his phone with him at all times). Then if anything happens you can immediately ring him and give him hell either by mobile or getting the concierge to hammer the door down.

I believe this would give him the greatest scare, and give you the best insight into what he's capable of (and so where work is needed if you reconcile).

What do you want out of all this? If you get "proof" of some sort or another - what then? I can give you a different perspective on this. If my partner hired a private detective to keep tabs on my movements, I would not want to remain in the relationship. I am very, very independent and could not stay in a relationship where I had to account for my every moment.

If I want to have a cosy lunch with another man then I will, whether my partner likes it or not. If he doesn't like it, tough! That lunch might include flirting and innuendo and a "what if" question. I would not take things further because I am risk-averse and I couldn't be bothered with the emotional hassle and drama.

I think you are in danger of over-obsessing about this to the point where you could make things worse.

Just another persepective. Perhaps you could arrange a nice lunch with an admirer. Why not? Keep your partner on his toes rather than going into bunny boiler mode.

(I do understand how you feel, but I think taking on too much of a victim role can be very counter-productive.)

Perhaps he is just meeting her because he likes her as a friend and has not told you because he knows you will over-react?

Men think differently from us and I know from experience that they often don't set out to deceive as such, they see it as doing the right thing.

Tbh I have not read all 11 pages of this thread, just the first and last so I do not know if there is more going on than this.

By hiring detectives etc or joining FB under a different name you are being as devious as he is.

Just ask him.

Or "decided to surprise you by joining you on the trip".

Don't add two and two together from the outset and get 5.

Do the maths first.

really agree with WhenWill, thats what i was trying to say before but whenWill has put it so much better!

Or there could be a possibility that he is flirting on line and has no intention of meeting up with her?

poodie, I think you have said before though, that your partner has had repeated flings that you've known about and tolerated, because you don't think infidelity is a deal-breaker and worth ending a relationship over. I suspect your "not a victim" response is a way of dealing with your hurt, actually. When anyone says "if my partner doesn't like it, tough!" it usually means they are very angry with their partner and affecting not to care about their happiness or wellbeing. It is a punitive state from which you write.

For this poster, engaging in a tit-for-tat flirty lunch, is not going to solve the problem. Adults shouldn't play games with one another, or pretend that they are comfortable with something they are not, like secret admirers, infidelity and "what's good for the goose" interactions. At some point in all this game-playing, people need to acknowledge the grievous hurt, pain and destruction, to themselves if not to their relationships and the children looking and learning.

The people with the greatest esteem establish their boundaries and their limits and feel able to admit pain when those things are transgressed. Those with the lowest esteem put their head in the sand, pretend it's okay to behave badly, or behave badly themselves....

abedelia - That is pretty much what I have been thinking.

Cote - I am so sorry you are going this.
If he has said nothing about this to you, could you suggest a dinner or something during the planned RDV and see what his reaction is?

Has he ever given you any reason to doubt him in the past? If this is out of character perhaps you could try and nip it in the bud?

Poodie makes a good point though about how Cote's DH may react if she were to hire a PI (and he were to discover that)

I've got to be honest, if someone hired a PI and I was followed around without my knowledge I would be beyond furious, and it would signal the complete end of that relationship.

Hello Cote,

Having followed the whole thread I delayed adding my own story but feel it may be helpful at this juncture.

That said - my post isn't so thought out that it may have huge holes in the logic. Apologies - I want to help not me,me,me IYSWIM. I am new to MN so this long winded post might not meet with etiquette (appreciate a steer if not).

Whenwill - I agree with your last para - but, unfortunately, it presupposes that both parties have similar esteem/moral code. It would appear that Cote's DH is already at a point of secrecy/denial which (read mine) that doesn't then respond to honesty.

Of course hindsight has amazing powers of perception. So...

January 09 whilst looking for other stuff in my exP email (we had open access to each others accounts... helpful for holiday info etc) I came across a looong thread by an unknown woman at work. I read them. I was concerned as it seemed clear she was building up to a pass and his replies, whilst not a green light, weren't discouraging. I chose to do nothing thinking I didn't want to be his moral gatekeeper (and I had DS, 2yo at the time, and DD, 5 months). A few days in I asked a mutual friend if she knew of woman X. She blanched. I became concerned and she said it was well known X was keen to the point of obsession on exP. I guess this got back to exP as I received an email from him saying: he was hurt I was saying he was having an affair and the the thing most likely to make him have one was being accused of doing so.

The posts here make it clearer to me what was happening - as I was saying I had at no point made such an accusation but was upset by the secrecy - ie the secrecy is stage one of a non-viable relationship. Anyway...

I looked again at the email thread a few days in. There was several from her unanswered by him then a drunken: oh-how-humiliating-sorry-sorry-I'll-stop-then type message from her and nothing further. (I now know this was staged for my benefit and they had an affair and set up a secret account to maintain it).

Jump back may last year (me forgetting these emails) and I ask him to consider marriage (as we have DS and now DD) and am told: No, as he no longer loves me.

FF a year. Include some Relate...it is my fault - I got fat - I was cross - resentful - aggressive etc. He tries again for 2 months (after I said OK Relate going nowhere lets start to dismantle house, finances etc). From November on he becomes distant, flinches from any contact with me. Goes away to NY on business (doesn't leave flight or hotel) then returns the same. A random day I pull myself up and choose to ask if he has something to say. He replies: Yes it isn't working, it never will. So I ask him to leave. (Jan this year).

FF a few painful months of new single motherness, sadness, could I have done more, been more etc, getting used to his access visits, he uses my computer and leaves email account open. I had a few seconds to read before he came upstairs from putting DS and DD to bed.

Enough to see 100s of emails from OW and a holiday with both names.

I confront him. He still denies it until I spin round computer and point out the plane ticket with their names on. Then he says he got together only recently, pure coincidence it is her, and for my benefit chose not to say.

From what I have read it seems unusual to not come clean when the affair is exposed but I wanted to share as I didn't consider the need for hard evidence and didn't have it (until the second time he left his email open last Sunday) as I couldn't quite believe one could deny ad infinitum.

This time I could read at leisure as he had finished his visit. He packed and left our house in the morning and contacted OW that afternoon on the main account (the signal that I had taken the bait (of bad behaviour) and said go.) He moved in 2 weeks later. He spent his trip to NY buying OW xmas presents (we bought each other token books due to ££).

The most galling thing in all of this is that he continues to maintain NOTHING UNTOWARD HAPPENED. He planned a secret dalliance until enough time had passed so he could unveil her as a new P to the world (ie his integrity intact) whilst letting me be the scape goat and my behaviour explained as untenable to live with and continuing jealous sour grapes.

I have yet to decide what to do with my hard copy evidence (as still seems part of my newly devised (by him) madness to show family/friends xeroxed emails)

I guess I am already on the dark side

IIWY - I would use PI but if it came back as innocent I would tell him that was what I had done and the reasons why and maybe use Relate or similar to get to the stage Whenwill describes.

Then I think about the only other people I love - DS and DD - and how I would approach a problem with them IYSWIM and I falter. Or is it not comparable?

Baggy - at "claimed he was sending it to himself"

Part of business or work culture (or all those I have worked in anyway) may involved having a 'flirty' lunch for flirty read a friendly lunch with a bit of lighthearted banter as well as discussing business.

This would in no way imply that an affair was about to start and any spouse that objected to lunches like this would be er ridiculed.

I can understand though if you have been on the receiving end of an EMA how your antennae would be raised and how you might feel worried. MY exh may or may not have played around (he always denied it but was certainly liked socialising with women) but nothing I could have done would have prevented that - he was often away on business and had opportunities if he wanted.

My exh worked in a predominantly female environment and if I had gone off on one every time he had lunch with a colleague who may have also been become a friend to him. my life would have been even more miserable. This sort of thing was not why our marriage failed.

I used to enquire about colleagues and a couple of times my antennae was raised but I would have been a complete unreasonable to object to them.

At work people's marriages or marital status are generally considered private and off limits except for polite enquires if you have met the spouse and dcs.

eg I may have lunch with my boss who is married - indeed my female colleague and I have gone on several short business trips together with our bosses (at one time all of us married)which have included socialising and maybe a lighthearted flirt. Doesn't mean the inevitable will happen.

TBH have worked together for years and think nothing of it.

But agree that tit for tat is a waste of time.

Amwell girl, welcome to MN and sorry you had such a terrible experience.

For the record, I have absolutely no problem with anyone snooping if they've got suspicions - in fact I recommend that they do. And I don't think Cote's H has a strong moral code at all, since he is already engaged in a deceit.

I just don't think she needs any more proof and would say again - so what if he denies?

Poodie - I don't feel nor act like a victim and I certainly don't see what I have said to warrant the "bunny boiler mode" comment. Have you read this thread? Honestly, if I were any calmer, I'd be sleeping.

You may have a "I do what I want, when I want" kind of relationship, but I don't. Neither would I want one, to be perfectly honest.

DH has an ex-GF he sees when in London. He doesn't necessarily tell me beforehand and that is perfectly fine. I know her, I've seen their relationship and it's friendly.

This new woman is a different kind. They have not talked for twenty years so there is no friendship to speak of, then found each other on FB. Now they talk on the phone and plotting to have a romantic rdv in secret, talking about having cold feet or not. If they so want to renew their friendship, why can't they meet here, where I can meet her, too?

amwellgirl