Women who return to abusive partners

[BertieBotts]

I notice a lot of people on here saying frequently that they don't understand why some women keep returning to violent or abusive relationships, and I read this book on the subject recently and found it really interesting, if hard going. It's written by Erin Pizzey, the founder of Women's Aid and is about women who are drawn to abusive (predominantly violent) relationships time and time again.

There are graphic descriptions of abuse in the book so just be warned if it is likely to upset you. If you think you can cope though it's well worth the read - it's quite short, 183 pages in print.

The book is called "Prone to Violence" and the whole text is available online here, (which is where I read it) or amazon link here.

In fact, it's so normalised for her that she writes Facebook statuses like 'Ow, my shins are killing me, never pick a fight with K after he's had a drink, that'll teach me' and laughs and jokes about it.

But the fact she posts on a public forum and doesnt get the apropriate horrified comments from people show that its not just her that normalises it.

And fwiw i dont think theres a "type " of woman who needs these relationships , this can happen to all women.They dont enter it knowing whats in store , but once they are caught up in it it becomes normal.

When i lived with jerk i was deeply unhappy. I would speak to freinds who remained unshocked and would do the " Men are a pain arent they " thing. I would watch tv programmes and films and read books that all normalised it.I actually saw a counseller about what was horrific sexual abuse who actually said " Well, some men are like that " , as though it was the most normal thing in the world.

I did not know what MRA stood for

I'm just a woman, a mum and i have experience of being abused. It has struck me in the past that I feel prevented from posting because Dittany is on a thread and I don't wish to 'draw fire' by disagreeing with her.

You say everyone 'thinks their viewpoint is better/more valid than anybody else's'

Actually......no I don't. The reason I use forums is because I find the exchange of views informative and helps me develop. You can only develop if you have an open mind and are prepared to accept you might need to change your viewpoint.

I do not know you. My post is not about you but about your style of posting.

Tonight I realised you made me feel exactly the same as my abusers did. It's not a good feeling. It's horrible.

Dittany wrote: "I don't own feminism, but I know a lot about it and I've studied it."

I probably got it from there. Sorry if I've incorrectly interpreted that as Womens Studies.

I can't imagine why you think anyone would single you out for attack - well, actually I can imagine! But I wouldn't and haven't done.

As I said, in this thread you have given me to feel that, in your opinion, your beliefs invalidate my lived experience. You've also tried to invalidate my feelings (of being bullied) and my facts (the demos). I would be astonished if you can't see why I feel this way, or why I'm upset & offended.

Thanks for the MRA explanation.

Victoria: "The reason I use forums is because I find the exchange of views informative and helps me develop. You can only develop if you have an open mind"

Me too, exactly!

And the other thing you said. I've taken two lessons from this, so far:-
1] I haven't got over feeling panicked when somebody does that to me (more work to do, dammit);
2] At least I can continue to function when they do, in spite of the panic (progress!)

I have never said you were being unkind to me.

I have said how you made me feel.

I will change my view if you will consider that perhaps your posting style might be responsible for how I feel?

My abusers told me that the reason I felt bullied/abused was my fault and I should change. It was never what they did.

If I tried to stand up for myself they accused me of bullying them. You cannot win in that situation. It's a very effective way to suppress opposition.

My post on this thread was to say how I feel. My viewpoint is valid and without any personal gain, point scoring or game play. It's an observation no more. I'm sorry it makes you uncomfortable. Sometimes we need to recognise why we feel uncomfortable?

Grace and Dittany, i like reading both your posts and i think you both offer a really interesting point of veiw, and you both certainly make me think a bit.

I think its a shame when threads on these subjects develop like this as ive often wanted to post or ask things , i dont really know what a feminist is, and although i find some subjects deeply upsetting id like to find out more about it.

Ive noticed these threads often become a little tense. In fact, ive felt a little niggly myself reading it, is it because its a highly emotional topic ? Its sad to see unease between posters who are basicly coming from the same place , especially those who have so much to offer .

Well, no, and you didn't say what you meant by studying feminism or being abused

FWIW, I went on loads of women's marches in those days and my story about Erin is true. Regardless of what current feminist orthodoxy says, "All Men Are Bastards/Rapists" placards were common in the early 70s. The bra was burned - on a stick, a few yards from me. There were frequent man-hating chants. At the bra-burning march, the other women were so hostile to us (apparently they disapproved of our appearance), we legged it to the nearest pub and hid.

The man-hating stuff struck me as irrational and bigoted, then as now. I do accept that big changes require a few pendulum swings, but couldn't see how all that was going to be constructive in any manner. I was marching FOR specific causes, not against half the population.

I think we have to let this Pizzey thing go now, Dittany. I feel she did great work, changed things for the better, and has a good understanding of the psychologies at work in abusive relationships. I have derived my opinion from my own life experience - or, more precisely, from what I have needed to learn in order to overcome the experience. You disagree. We don't quite know from where you've derived your opinion, but we know it is strongly held and is different from mine. Pax.

Victoria, that's a wonderfully expressed post imo. Thanks

Highly emotional is probably an understatement , i staggered around the house earlier feeling sick and tearfull. I felt like running out into the street and yelling at everyone that these things have gone on and still are doing. I want everyone to wake up to it and do something about it. Right now.

Now ive seen it i see it everywhere , reading particular posts on here upset me , certain films, adverts, comments upset me. Im not sure if i was better off in my little ignorant bubble.

GOing back a bit to the woman with the Facebook updates about violence: I don't know that the fact that her other friends don't comment on her FB page with shock and outrage means they have 'normalised' violence or if it's possible that they have tried repeatedly to help this woman and suggest to her that the relationship is no good, only to be rebuffed angrily. There is a point at which you can't help another person who refuses your help and refuses to help themselves.

Thank god sgb i thought id killed it! I had an interesting conversation with my counseler once. She asked me what my freinds marriages were like. They were all crap and i said so. She asked if they had similar issues to mine and yes, they did, all completeley normalised and not classed as abusive by the wife. She asked me if i thought if this was a coincidence .

Im not sure whether it was , but nowadays i meet women who are happily married ,happily single and have fantastic careers and dont take crap.

Yeah, but it's heartbreaking isn't it?! It's got to be worth posting something back, even if it's only "Oh no, how many bruises this time?"

I remember going into work once with a black eye and a cut face. I was due to have my picture taken for the company; the local paper was doing a piece on them. Everyone at work said "Ooh, did X do that?" Yes, I said, bad night. So they rearranged the picture, to keep the injured side of my face away from the camera. I was so desparate for someone to tell me it was all wrong, and offer some sensible advice about what to do.

please forgive me if i am intruding here, it's not my intention, but i've been thinking about this thread a a lot, though not had a chance to post, hopefully scooby doo will give me a chance now.

i think everybody had their own way of dealing with abuse they are all valid. i don't think it is necessary to have experienced dv or abuse to be affected by it, it affects us all, and i think it's important that everybody feels that they can add their viewpoint, without feeling that viewpoint is invalidating somebody else. there is enough room for us all. we all have valuable thoughts to share which can help and inspire others.

i have learnt a lot from this thread, and it saddens me that the people on it seem to have misunderstood each other.
would like to say more but scooby over and kids leaking everywhere.

I have gone for nasty abusive partners 2x in my life . .infact 3x if you count in my first hibby who wasnt abusive physically but was a very selfish git who treated me in a selfish way and dominated me in that sense. I have , after 20 years seen the light and have chosen a very kind gentle man who is loving and sweet. I guess in the past i thought i deserved no better that a bossy, self centred, aggressive man. It was all subconscious though. . .The heartache and hell i went through was awful. . .I am now happier than i have been since my older son was born; and that was 22 yrs ago !!!!!!

Whoo, maltesers, that's encouraging! Cheers

Maybe I'm being a bit thick here, but I don't see why the different view points have to be mutually exclusive.

I've read the Lundy Bancroft book and am (mostly) in wholehearted agreement with it. I find his explanation for why some women respond to abuse by becoming violent themselves very convincing, and it is great that he has managed to undermine the argument many abusive men trot out: "well you're just as bad as me".

Sadly, since my eyes were opened to abuse following my own experience, I have come across shocking levels of it in my own community. I am one of the lucky ones who made a bad choice, got out and never looked back. I had the resources to be able to do so - independent financial means, a good education and fantastic supportive friends (those I had left, anyway). I think many more women would make the break if they had those resources. I think even more women would make the break if abusive men were held properly accountable so that women were able to move on with their lives.

However, despite finding a lot of things 'wrong' with Erin Pizzey's book, I think she makes a valid point about there being some women who are so caught up in the cycle of violence, and so conditioned to find it normal, that it can well be likened to an addiction. Saying someone has an addiction does not imply that the addict is in any way a lesser person, more deserving of abuse or 'asking for it' does it? I've never understood it like that, anyway.

I don't think most abused women fall in this 'addicted' category, but from personal experience I can certainly think of one or two that fit this description very well indeed, and Erin Pizzey's anecdotal evidence about the effect this can have second or third generation on in closed nuclear families is borne out in a small number of families I know. I think she wildly overplays her theory, in that I am pretty sure it applies to a small minority rather than the majority of abused women, but I think she has a point.

OptmistS - Yes, I agree with you there. It doesn't let abusers off the hook, any more than it lets abusers of the hook to be aware that some of them are repeating a cycle of violence they learned as children - they are adults and, unless living somewhere very remote and closed, will have been exposed to enough other people's lives and/or mass media to be aware that domestic violence is not acceptable and not normal and they can and should seek help in getting over their own problems.

And I did know one woman some years ago who rather fitted the pattern - one abusive partner after another, and then when she started dating a man who was not inclined to be abusive, she seemed to want to provoke him to violence. This particular man confided in me a year or two after the relationship ended that if they argued she seemed to want to escalate the argument and provoke and provoke - he didn't hit her, though he didn't behave all that well, he just ended the relationship because he didn't feel up to dealing with her issues and found it all a bit disturbing.

I think this does happen often and am grateful for recent posts. Not repeating own history here.

Pizzey said that out of the first 100 women through her door, 62 were violent abusers. What seems to have got lost, in the ensuing posterama, is that those 62 women had left their homes to seek shelter.

Just found this thread and sorry to see it degenerated into name calling and hissy fits, when it is such a serious and important topic.

For what it is worth I cannot believe Pizzey's 62 out of 100 women were violent abusers themselves (unless SHE was the catalyst who attracted them!) I spent over 18 years working with abused women daily and encountered only a handful out of thousands who were abusers. In all that time I cannot recall any violent outbursts in the refuge - fallings out Yes, shouting matches Yes, actual violence between women NO.

I could go on all night about reasons why women return but many have already been listed on this thread. Perhaps the more relevant question is 'Why did they leave?' and 'Why has the abuser not been locked up?

People are throwing statistics about here like blunt weapons. Can I point out that Police statistics regularly showed anything up to 30% of victims of DV were male, but only 5% of abusers were female. Their defenition of DV includes any family members so their stats include father/son, brother/brother, son/mother etc. violence. Whichever way you cut it the fact is that most victims of domestic violence are women; most perpetrators of domestic violence are men.

As to Ms Pizzey she probably did more harm to the fledgling refuge movement than she did good. She certainly publicised the need for refuges, but her portrayal of them as places full of violent incidents, men hammering on the door, police being called, with Erin to the rescue and saving the day, was really off putting for women who could have benefitted from the average quiet, safe, supportive refuge (at a secret location) that was available but never got the media coverage that Ms Pizzey attracted. It was all about her - she never grasped the principals of encouragement, enablement and collective working which formed the foundation of Women's Aid Refuges.

Our 'bible' at WA was not 'Scream Quietly...' but rather 'Violence against Wives' by Rebecca and Russell Dobash. Dittany - I have never seen you mention the Dobashes. Are they no longer fashionable? Were they only 'the biggest authorities on DV' here in Scotland?