What Would You Do?

[YallaYalla]

Hi,

Looking for a bit of advice please. I am slowly working out that DH has some major issues with passive aggressive behaviour. We've just come back from a week-long holiday and he is no longer talking to me because of a row we had on the last day. He has gone into emotional shutdown and as usual I am paying the price.

In brief: I wanted to do something (buy a souvenir on our last night) which he didn't want to do; I could tell he wasn't keen and offered to leave him in the bar we were having sundowners in while I nipped up to the shop; he didn't take me up on this offer, and also did not say he didn't want to do it when I asked him in a friendly way about it.

So we leave bar and walk to shop buy souvenir, him seemingly in an ok mood. On leaving shop he gets into a major strop because he was very sweaty and hot from the walk (tropics) and within a space of about 5 minutes shuts down totally.

Doesn't want to do anything, goes mute, won't respond to queries of if he's ok, my offers to go and stand in areas where there is AC, queries about which bar he would like to go to next and where we should have dinner on our last night.

Eventually he says he's had enough and wants to go back to the hotel and do nothing/watch TV. It's 8pm, it's the last night of our holiday and we're both dolled up for a good night out.

I'm pretty pissed off, but use my usual tactics for snapping him out of these moods - cuddling him, ignoring his mood, teasing him gently, trying to take charge in a non-confrontational way. It worked for a bit, and then I got a bit exhausted by the whole effort and said, fine, let's go back to the hotel. We are waiting in a taxi queue and I say I'm just popping into this shop to use the loo.

He claims he thought I said 'see you back at the hotel'. I though I'd made it fairly clear I was just nipping to the loo but it's possible he didn't hear me as we were about 10 metres away from each other. Anyway, point is, I return from the loo and he's vanished.

He KNOWS I have no money in my pocket whatsoever (he always carries the cash on nights out on holiday) and no mobile phone which I've left in the hotel safe. So he's dumped me in the middle of a capital city in Asia. Admittedly, it's a safe city, it's not late, I know the way back to the hotel 20 minutes away, and we're in a really touristy area. But it's the principle of just being dumped like that without even money for a taxi. I'm furious. Walk back to hotel room.

Half an hour later he shows up. I am fuming. Not proud of what happens next but I use the security chain to stop him getting access to the hotel room. I tell him he's not coming in as he dumped me in a foreign city with no resources. He asks again to be let in. I say no and slam the door shut.

Eventually, at 2am, he tries the door again. This time I've softened and feel pretty bad for locking him out of the room (even though HE had his wallet and credit cards and finances mean he could easily booked himself another room in the same hotel for the night). I let him in, he walks in in silence and hasn't spoken to me since.

We flew home in silence and he sat separately to me from the plane. Now we are home and he's still in the silent treatment mode, sleeping on the sofa. Total emotional frigging shutdown.

Now. I KNOW I was unreasonable to prevent him access to the hotel room for a few hours. I haven't apologised yet either (he's stonewalling me and I don't see what value it would have at this time). But, as usual, it's me who looks the nutter.

He could not express feelings on us going to the shop. He 'punishes' me for taking us there by shutting down emotionally, and then abandoning me on the last night of our holiday in a foreign city with no bloody money in my pocket. I shut him out of the hotel room but in no way compromised his safety (for all I know he spent the intervening hours in the hotel lobby bar knocking back single malts). And, as usual, I am sitting here tearing my hair out, trying to find a way to get him to open up and being given the silent treatment.

I've spent some time on the internet this morning looking at PA behaviour. I'm sure he doesn't have the PA personality disorder as generally he is a very good, loving, honest man who holds down a very stressful and highly-paid job and - this issue aside - our marriage is strong and we have a good relationship. But I just can't BEAR this passive aggressive shit.

What am I supposed to do?
Any tips for how I can make myself feel better while his mood subsides?
Any tips for how I can snap him out of it?
Should I apologise for locking him out of the room?

Sorry - this is an essay - just feel like I'm going mad here. Thanks if you got this far.

i kind of know where custardo is coming from actually.

it's clear he's damaged and needs solo counselling to work through childhood events.

it's also clear that you have participated in the aggression and i know you acknowledge that it wasn't GOOD behaviour when you slapped him and ranted and raved at him.......but it's different to truly take responsibility yourself for your behaviour.

don't focus so much on him, just work on remaining calm when dealing with him. let him deal with himself and don't treat him like a baby. don't jolly him out of his bad moods etc, don't play the game.

and it is a game. i know because i've played it.

i'm not condoning his behaviour in any of this, he clearly doesn't know how to cope with his feelings. i also think you should leave if there's any physical violence.

it's good you're getting individual counselling because it sounds like your upbringing has had an effect on how you deal with a partner in a relationship.

good luck.

Attila - thanks for your posts. They are most helpful and really insightful.

No, I don't think my Mum would be happy with the situation I'm in now. I don't think my childhood was particularly dysfunctional (I would say mine was very average, DH's probably pretty dysfunctional) but I accept the possibility that I am minimising it. At times things in my family were bad. But isn't it like this in all families? It's never a bed of roses is it?

I remember lots of happy, stable times. But also occasional times when my dad would be in dark dark moods for days and days at a time and really punish my poor mother. Why did she stay? Like me, she was living overseas and financially dependent. She also had children. She also probably stayed as good times were great when they were good. In many ways - other than the DC thing - it's a very similar set-up to me now.

Crikey. Weird hey? We so do copy our childhood patterns.

As I have grown older, and particularly in the last couple of years, I have really seen that my Dad is rather controlling. He has a hell of a lot of issues. Obviously some of all of this has rubbed off onto me.

Blinks - not quite sure what to say to your post although I do appreciate your view.

I AM concerned about some of my recent aggressive behaviour, that is one of the things that is concerning me, why I have asked for people's perspectives. But I don't think we are equals here.

I am taking responsibility for my role in arguments. I have apologised, nicely and honestly, for things I have done wrong. I am trying to fix this (even though some say I shouldn't bother). I am desperately trying to open up lines of communication, even though he is trying to shut them down. I am trying to talk this through as a normal married couple would. I always start conversations nicely, pleasantly, reminding him that I love him but that we have some issues to discuss. And then things are rendered so ugly I fly off the handle. I know I am not perfect. But I don't see how we are equally at fault.

Hello YallaYalla. I'm the person whose thread Tabouleh linked to earlier- "Husband says it's over - wants custody of DD". I am frantic at work and I can't post for long. But I wanted to say that I read your OP and it did make my blood run a bit cold for recognition. Everyone's situation is different, and I wouldn't presume to understand yours (especially as I will admit I've read only your OP and your next few responses, rather than the whole thread). But can I just make one suggestion: have a look at this book:

Lundy Bancroft

Seriously. You'll pick it up and think "abuser?? No way, that's not us." But ignore the terminology, ignore the Americanisms, ignore some of the overly-simplistic scenarios and give it a chance. Think about some of the behavioural patterns outlined in it.

There is also a very pithy website that someone posted on my thread- but I can't find it. It's something about identifying a good guy versus a bad guy.

I remember the silent treatment very, very well. I must say (without wanting to sound flippant about your situation) life is fab without having to worry about it!!

Yalla, how many siblings do you have and where are you in the running/pecking order? Did your parents have favourites?

There is so much I could say but it has taken me four years to understand.

You have the insight and loveliness to get it eventually - I think I can see that in your posts. One day you will be a wise mumsnetter on here feeling as much empathy for someone as I do for you.

I hope that by then you have lovely babies to cherish and a dp who cherishes you. And if not the latter, then defo the former.

Stay with this man and you will become a statistic.

Get out and you can live.

Moll - thanks so much for your post. Just read your entire thread, too. Unfortunately, there is a lot that I recognise in there. I have already read the Bancroft book thanks, and totally recognise that DH's 'style' if you like is the water torturer.

It's funny how you can read about other people's problems and see the issues very clearly, but can't in your own dynamics. I read your thread thinking 'he's an arse, just LEAVE him already!'. And you did so, so well to eventually leave, especially with a young child which must have made it all so much harder.

In some ways it appears your H became more extreme if you like after the birth of your daughter. I am very wary on that happening in our relationship. As you say, it's pretty easy to compromise when it's just the two of you, but when there are children involved, compromise is not really an option in that way.

Several things rang alarm bells in your posts for me. In some ways my DH seems less extreme than yours (the nose job thing was horrific, and I can't imagine my DH ever doing that), but I guess these people all operate differently.

But when you talked about him saying that your DD's 'expectations needed to be managed', that made my blood run cold. That is my H's whole mantra. In fact, in our endless negotiations about how to even begin to start talking about our problems, H's favourite expression is "Don't expect talking to solve anything. You have to manage your expectations". Creepy, really.

Also kids. You talk about him having a problem with your DD being centre of attention. My DH frequently says this when we talk about families. A few months ago we went for lunch at a good friend's house. Her 2 very young children were there. They were in bed napping (friend had planned it carefully so we all got a 'child-free' lunch) and we were having wine etc. At one point the baby woke and she brought it down and sat on her lap. No big deal. No crying, no fussing, our adult conversation continued as normal. Later on the older child woke from her nap, there was a bit of chit chat with the toddler but we all basically carried on with our lunch. Afterwards I said to DH, what a great lunch, and so encouraging to see they appear so 'normal' despite the young kids (we are/were thinking about TTC). And he immediately said 'I thought that was awful. Those kids were the centre of attention and it so shouldn't be that way'.

And I also empathise a lot with what you were struggling with in your posts Moll. The guilt and worry over him. The 'if only I was different/better/less demanding' we wouldn't have these problems. The feeling that things are terrible, you must leave, and then getting sucked back into normality. That's where I am. Veering uncontrollably between 'this is terrible and I really should implement a temporary separation', to 'he's really a nice guy, he has trouble expressing his feelings, maybe he'll come round'.

Unlikely - thanks for your support. I have just one brother, he is 2 years older than me. My parents didn't have favourites and went to great lengths to treat us both equally, but we were quite different children. My brother was very poor academically and got A LOT of flak from my father about this. As an adult, he has now almost totally withdrawn from any relationship with my parents and has almost cut them off. I've never understood why. But now I am getting an inkling.

I, while not a 'favourite', had a much easier ride. Always very good academically, great school reports. Now we are both grown up, I am the one who always goes home to my parents for Xmas, always calls them, always supports them. My brother wants almost nothing to do with them. So they really rely on me and my support.

I guess it's the classic 'doting daughter' act, isn't it?

gosh if he thinks children should not be centre of attention...

of course with his OWN kids might be different - but frankly if you decide to have dcs with this man you must be prepared to then have to leave him and strike off on your own - you cannot do dcs and have someone going off in a sulk for days...

i think you know the truth/the answer here - but if you relaly think he has redeeming features then try stoppping "managing" him and pandering to his moods..see what happens. continue with your life and meet your needs...

cestlavie - I was planning on ttc with him, but obviously not anymore. I am certainly not going to bring kids into my marriage (which other posters have helpfully described as a 'carwreck' ) at this point.

What I would like help with is this: he's back tonight, what do I say to him? There are so many issues, so many things I have problems with I really don't know where to start.

I don't think I can just say 'You're emotionally abusing me and I want it to stop', as firstly he'll think that's ridiculous and then I'll have to come up with examples and I'll get flustered. But I really, really, really want to be able to drive into his head that I find some of his behaviour unacceptable and will leave if it doesn't stop. How should I phrase it?

I was thinking of saying to him I have 4 things I'm concerned about:

a) Your inability to see you have done wrong and inability to apologise (still hasn't apologised for his role in our original argument almost a month ago now)

b) Silent treatment as a method to control/punish me - this has to stop immediately

c) Listening - I find you don't hear my concerns and if I can't talk to you properly then we don't have a marriage. So when I tell you I want to discuss things, you MUST hear me out and give me respect and proper feedback

d) Kids - you still haven't said whether you want them or not. I want you to tell me, for once and for all, whether you want them or not, because I suspect you don't and are just too scared to tell me.

Do you think this will work? I'm feeling very despondent. I know our chat will probably be hopeless but I at least want a gameplan.

It's very important to me that I at least try to get across WHAT my concerns are. Because I've never clearly expressed them before.

Another lone voice here, I am afraid Yalla ..

Just read this again:

"Not proud but I just see red, I'm so frustrated.
I smack his arm a couple of times with my open palm - not painful enough to be a slap, but sort of banging his arm with my palm and scream 'fuck off fuck off'.
I KNOW this is not great behaviour but I feel like a woman possessed. Can anyone relate to this?

......

He then says, in a very low controlled voice: "Do you want me to punch you in the f+cking face?"

My HUSBAND says this to me. Words fail me."

Why do words fail you? You have assaulted him and screamed Fuck Off in his face. He must have felt like hitting you back but he didn't, he tried to keep control but warned you he was close to losing it and hitting you back.

I am all for support of women in domestic violence situations and of course it is important that women recognise what behaviour is unacceptable and that people help them to see where they are being brainwashed by an abuser into accepting violent behaviour as normal.

I don't know whether your OH is abusive or not. But it's not as simple as "OMG, I am woman, my OH threatened to hit me, therefore it is automatically all his fault".

Most of us in happy relationships have had moments where we have pushed each other to the limits. To my shame I once shoved/slapped my DH and screamed at him. He shouted back - "you do that again and I will f**king hit you back. " Which I think was fair enough.

I think the test is how you deal with these sorts of incidents. I know I am in a good relationship because my DH and I talked it through very soon after - how scary it was that we had come close to violence, we both apologised, I apologised particularly for hitting him, and we have never allowed things to get so close to the edge since. We are now brilliant at arguing and making up - we always apologise to each other before bed time.

I think you are over-analysing this whole thing and looking for a "reason" why you aren't happy; would it be easier to move on if you could be confident in your DH having the label of "emotional abuser"?

I think should just go with your instincts with whether you are happy with your relationship. When I had that dreadful argument with my DH it never occurred to me that there was anything deeply wrong, because there wasn't. I am happy with my DH and wouldn't want to be married to anyone else.

Given you are having all these doubts it sounds to me that you don't feel happy, deep down. Maybe your DH is emotionally abusive, maybe he is just a difficult person to live with with his immature way of stonewalling and dealing with confrontation/compromise and childish inability to apologise. I am sure you have your difficulties too - the laundry thing sounds a bit childish and, I hate to say it, there is coming across an element of your "living out the drama" as Custardo said (sorry!)

Bottom line is you aren't happy and that suggests to me you should move on. I feel for you as I know this must be very hard after years in a relationship.

All the above is meant with goodwill to you.

Bumps x

Yalla

Just saw your most recent post and sorry to have posted my challenging post at a time when you are feeling particularly despondent.

Hope you find a way through it all.

Bumps x

Bumps, while I agree with the gist of your post - which is, if I'm reading you rightly: "You're unhappy so do yourself a favour and get out of the situation that pains you" - I feel I have to pick up on your assessment of the violence above.

A "punch in the fucking face" is not the equal & reasonable response to a frustrated tantrum. Neither is the threat of same.

Were Mr Yalla a more reasonable man, he might have caught OP's arm to stop her slapping him. He might have tried to hug her down. If she was literally hysterical, he might have slapped her smartly. But what he did was excessive and malicious.

Just yet another PS having read your recent post about your DH's attitude to children. It sounds like you and he have very different ideas about childrens' place in the world and that trying to bring them up together would be a total nightmare.

The strongest feeling I get reading all this is that you are very incompatible. You are emotionally fluent and fluid, you like to talk things through, you want to have a barney, apologise, make up and carry on, you like children and have a modern attitude towards them. Your DH thinks there is little to be gained by talking, has a seen and not heard attitude to children, is unable to communicate in a constructive way to keep your relationship healthy and has a tendency to sulk/stonewall for ages.

The children thing is significant I think. If you are a young couple thinking about having children, seeing other people's children should be a warm experience where you each look at the other and thing "oh, DH would be a great dad and "Oh, our turn soon!" It should make you feel loving and warm feelings. In your case it only served to highlight to gap between you in how you view the world and operate in it.

Yalla, I understand why it's important to you that you state your concerns very clearly. Congratulations on your list

From what you've written, I'm afraid I think you'll either be met with more semantics or a few days' worth of lip service. You do need to see this through, I gather, so am wishing you all good luck. x

Bumps - interesting post. How exactly do you define "living out the drama"? Do you mean that I am exaggerating what might be 'abuse' in order to make it easier to leave by having a label, or do you mean that I am enjoying posting about this?

I'm very glad that when you had a horrendous argument with your husband and you were both aggressive and shouted at each other, that afterwards you were both able to chat about it calmly, comfort each other, apologise and move on.

That has never happened to me in 8 years, whether the argument was big or small. I have never had my concerns heard, and after 8 years it does tend to drive one a little round the twist.

Obviously that is my problem, not yours though. You are right, I am now realising I am unhappy, and I guess that's the most important thing. But before I just up and leave I need to work out what is going on, how he and I have contributed to it, and work out what to avoid in the future.

Grace - I would literally die of delight if my husband 'hugged me down' if I was screaming or upset. That has never happened. What usually happens is he steps past me as if I am invisible. By contrast, when he is angry or moody with me, I often hug him or try to tell him nice words so that he will engage and we can talk. But it never works.

Yallayalla,
SO sorry you are experiencing this.

Communication is probably the key ... are you really sure that you want to have this kind of reltionship permanently?

He is very childish and a bully and you are right to acknowledge this. In my very limited experience this can often be because that person can't communicate their feelings, and can't cope with their frustrations - and rightly you are sick of having to mind-read.

I wonder if you feel able to approach him about this at some point in the future - not necessarily now - but when things have been stable for a few weeks. It might help to explain along the lines of 'when you do x, it makes me feel X, and so I do X and that's not how I want things to be '

Hope that helps you, I'm sory you are putting up with this. X

Grace

Fair enough - you are entitled to your view.

I saw the confrontation between Yalla and her OH as very similar to what happened between me and my DH, and I do not think DH was abusive towards me in that situation.

Saying "do that again and I will f-ing hit you!" in the heat of the moment when your wife has just shoved and slapped you is not necessarily indicative of an intention to go ahead and hit her. It's a spur of the moment, spontaneous laying down of a boundary when someone has gone too far. It is a "threat" but only in the sense that we issue threats when defending ourselves and our boundaries. I don't think my DH would ever have actually hit me, and I can totally understand why he said what he said.

I don't know whether Yalla's DH would have actually hit her, but amidst all the posts commenting as if he was the worst wifebeater out, I thought it only just to put the alternative view.

Bumps x

Bumps, you have missed the point entirely

Does your husband sulk for days and days on end? Does he frustrate you regularly to the point of wanting to scream and lash out, by not engaging with you, by stonewalling you, by treating you as though you are invisible?

No. I bet not.

You had a screaming match with your H once. It got a bit physical. You were both mortified afterwards and made up and it has not happened since.

Where is the correlation between that, and the horrid treatment Yalla is receiving regularly?

Yalla, my exh used to say nothing. Nothing. Sit and stare at the floor or his feet. Sometimes I would beg him to talk to me. He would call them my 'monologues' and once he had driven me nuts with his silent treatment he would say 'I can't speak to you when you are in a state like this' and walk away... only he had got me into that 'state'. He would turn and walk away very slowly and deliberately, go upstairs to bed and 'hide' under the duvet. I once followed him upstairs and into the room and he cowered as though I was going to hit him.

My counsellor said afterwards 'If he had truly been afraid of you he would have run away - run up the stairs or run out the house. He was not afraid of you. He was cruelly winding you up.

I also discovered, after we split, that he had actually recorded, secretly, some of these 'rows' - ie me doing a worked up monologue getting in more of a state and him contributing silence or maybe the odd monosyllabic answer. It was very very creepy to discover these recordings (on our laptop) . It made me realise he must have been secretly enjoying watching me go nuts. They are horrid horrid people but it takes ages to see it, understand it and get away from it. xx

I am afraid a 'serious' and 'frank' sit-down talk with this man will gop one of two ways: he will agree, act sorry, try and change for a bit then eventually revcert back to exactly the treatment you are suffering now.

Or else he will go ilent while you talk at him, probably blame you and the discussion will get nowhere and you will end up frustrated again and miserable.

But yes, you must try to have the conversation and your points ln the list sound good. You have to have it to prove to yourself again and finally that you really must get away from this man and his mind-bending fuck-wittery. xx

Amazonian

No, my H doesn't do the silent treatment, thank goodness. That must be very frustrating for Yalla and that is why I think she needs to get out of the relationship if he isn't prepared to make some serious changes.

I am not saying she ought to just carry on - if she and her H are not able to talk through the frustration/isses and the fact that they got very close to a serious physical incident, then it doesn't look good.

Sounds to me like her husband is difficult to live with because of his approach and personality. I can see also see that there is a point at which stonewalling/silent treatment becomes more than just a personality trait - and is actively abusive and controlling. Where Yalla's H is on the spectrum I don't feel I know enough to fairly comment, without having met him or seen how he operates.

I am just saying that there are plenty of reasons to end the relationship or at least try to seek a serious change in it as things are, without having to categorise Yalla's H as a wifebeater as well. He isn't, in my view.

Bumps x

Yalla

"very glad that when you had a horrendous argument with your husband and you were both aggressive and shouted at each other, that afterwards you were both able to chat about it calmly, comfort each other, apologise and move on.

That has never happened to me in 8 years, whether the argument was big or small. I have never had my concerns heard, and after 8 years it does tend to drive one a little round the twist. "

I'm very sorry to hear you feel so chronically unheard - that must make life pretty miserable. Good luck with what you decide to do next.

Bumps x

I can only speak for myself here, though I'm echoing several professional documents: to 'diagnose' a partner (or co-worker, parent, etc) is meaningless in clinical terms, but extremely useful in getting a handle on what's happening in the relationship.

As a regular on this forum, Bumps, I don't know how you've missed the fact that certain personality types behave in predictable, damaging ways. So predictable, in fact, that Women's Aid counsellors can often tell a caller what their partner said next.

Those personality types fit the profile of various clinical personality disorders - generally BPD, and often with Narcissistic or Sociopathic tendencies. When you're in the midst of a confusing relationship, learning about the disorders is revelatory. Afflicted individuals manage to persuade their partners there's something wrong with them; ie, their unhappiness is their own fault. When you find out that their behaviour fits the pattern of a known mental disorder, it's shocking but also a relief.

I'm not a clinical psychologist - and I don't need to be. If it walks like a duck & quacks like a duck ... roast it for Sunday lunch.

Grace -

I don't disagree with you that personality disorders exist and that people with them behave in predictable ways. My DH is a psychotherapist/clinical psychologist and we both have an interest in these sorts of issues.

I also agree with you that it is possible that Yalla's OH is emotionally abusive and has a need to be controlling, childish and pandered to.

I am just saying it is not fair to class him as a wife beater on the basis that he issued a threat in the heat of the moment when his wife was screaming at him and slapping him.

I also know that a relationship is the sum of its parts and that in the majority of cases there are issues on both sides (I purposefully say "issues" rather than "fault").

Bumps x

Pax
My post wasn't as relevant as it should have been.

The phrase "wife beater" would only apply to - well, someone who beat their wife, whereas DV encompasses a far wider range of abuse. It includes behaviours intended to instil fear in their target. Can't disagree with you about issues on both sides, though - it often seems that a dysfunctional family background sets people up for later abuse. That was certainly true in my case; it's why I did not respond 'rationally' to my ex's manipulations (by walking straight out).

I think it would be pointless to address those issues before recognising the relationship abuse, though, since the targetted partner is already mired in self-doubt and their issues would be turned against them.

dont think you will get anywhere by tlaking to him - he is not enjoying the relationship with you as such- but he gets a kick out of teh control he ahs and that you seem to eb willing to stick it out with him - for what?

also expecting him now to apoliogise for seomthing a month ago - what is the point?

if was healthy relationship - you would both apologise imediately, kiss and make up, clear the air...these simmering resentments...go nowhere...

i think you know--this wont go anywhere - i would save your talking for talking thu witha counsellor and work out what you really really want in life and from a partner....

you cant change someone.

Unlikely - thanks again for your post. I feel you actually understand what I'm going through. It's very difficult to describe when you're in it. Especially when it's been going on for years and you didn't realise. Perhaps I've not been explaining myself very well. But thanks for 'getting' it.

Your experience very closely mirrors mine when we have these confrontations, or whatever you wish to call them. The silent treatment drives me to either despair, tears or fury (usually a mix of all three at a time) and then, at the point when I am standing there like a mad woman, he'll say: "See, you're so unhinged."

And they manage to get you into this state by simply saying nothing. It's amazing really when you think about it.

I also couldn't believe what you wrote about your ex H going up to bed and getting under the duvet. My H does this occasionally. He'll go into a sulk and sometimes, even if it's only 7.30pm, will go upstairs and get under the duvet. Not even with a light on, just lie there in the dark. Sometimes I go in and try to reason with him. Sometimes I ignore him. Once I went up and said 'this is ridiculous you can't just withdraw like this', and I pulled the duvet off him in an effort to get him to look me in the eye. He then 'cowered' exactly like you said your ex H did, as if he was worried I would hit him. And then of course I started thinking, maybe I'm the violent one here.

Grace - yes, I agree. I don't really care about which box he falls into and I realise you can't 'diagnose' someone online. But it is very helpful for me in terms of unravelling his behaviour, and my reaction to it, to know whether this is 'abuse/control' or just a husband with communication issues. It is a great comfort to me when I am sitting here tearing my hair out that I am not going mad, I am not imagining it and that this is a behaviour pattern I am dealing with, not simply a rough patch in our marriage.

Bumps - thank you for your posts but I don't think anybody's actually called him a wifebeater, have they? People are simply saying that they recognise a behaviour pattern, it looks like 'abuse' and that emotional abuse often leads to physical abuse. They are warning me it COULD get physical.

You say I am revelling in the 'drama' of all this. Funny, that's exactly what my DH says too. It's precisely this kind of circular reasoning that led me to post on here in the first place.

cestlavie - thanks for your input.

No, I am not expecting an apology and I am not expecting our talk to solve anything. At this stage I am looking more to confirm my suspicions that if I try to calmly talk to DH about our problems, that he will refuse to hear and stonewall me, or be abusive again.

It is rather a twisted logic, perhaps, but I need to somehow 'prove' to myself that I am not imagining this. I totally accept I need to make wider plans to leave, and am taking steps to do so. Thanks.