What Would You Do?

[YallaYalla]

Hi,

Looking for a bit of advice please. I am slowly working out that DH has some major issues with passive aggressive behaviour. We've just come back from a week-long holiday and he is no longer talking to me because of a row we had on the last day. He has gone into emotional shutdown and as usual I am paying the price.

In brief: I wanted to do something (buy a souvenir on our last night) which he didn't want to do; I could tell he wasn't keen and offered to leave him in the bar we were having sundowners in while I nipped up to the shop; he didn't take me up on this offer, and also did not say he didn't want to do it when I asked him in a friendly way about it.

So we leave bar and walk to shop buy souvenir, him seemingly in an ok mood. On leaving shop he gets into a major strop because he was very sweaty and hot from the walk (tropics) and within a space of about 5 minutes shuts down totally.

Doesn't want to do anything, goes mute, won't respond to queries of if he's ok, my offers to go and stand in areas where there is AC, queries about which bar he would like to go to next and where we should have dinner on our last night.

Eventually he says he's had enough and wants to go back to the hotel and do nothing/watch TV. It's 8pm, it's the last night of our holiday and we're both dolled up for a good night out.

I'm pretty pissed off, but use my usual tactics for snapping him out of these moods - cuddling him, ignoring his mood, teasing him gently, trying to take charge in a non-confrontational way. It worked for a bit, and then I got a bit exhausted by the whole effort and said, fine, let's go back to the hotel. We are waiting in a taxi queue and I say I'm just popping into this shop to use the loo.

He claims he thought I said 'see you back at the hotel'. I though I'd made it fairly clear I was just nipping to the loo but it's possible he didn't hear me as we were about 10 metres away from each other. Anyway, point is, I return from the loo and he's vanished.

He KNOWS I have no money in my pocket whatsoever (he always carries the cash on nights out on holiday) and no mobile phone which I've left in the hotel safe. So he's dumped me in the middle of a capital city in Asia. Admittedly, it's a safe city, it's not late, I know the way back to the hotel 20 minutes away, and we're in a really touristy area. But it's the principle of just being dumped like that without even money for a taxi. I'm furious. Walk back to hotel room.

Half an hour later he shows up. I am fuming. Not proud of what happens next but I use the security chain to stop him getting access to the hotel room. I tell him he's not coming in as he dumped me in a foreign city with no resources. He asks again to be let in. I say no and slam the door shut.

Eventually, at 2am, he tries the door again. This time I've softened and feel pretty bad for locking him out of the room (even though HE had his wallet and credit cards and finances mean he could easily booked himself another room in the same hotel for the night). I let him in, he walks in in silence and hasn't spoken to me since.

We flew home in silence and he sat separately to me from the plane. Now we are home and he's still in the silent treatment mode, sleeping on the sofa. Total emotional frigging shutdown.

Now. I KNOW I was unreasonable to prevent him access to the hotel room for a few hours. I haven't apologised yet either (he's stonewalling me and I don't see what value it would have at this time). But, as usual, it's me who looks the nutter.

He could not express feelings on us going to the shop. He 'punishes' me for taking us there by shutting down emotionally, and then abandoning me on the last night of our holiday in a foreign city with no bloody money in my pocket. I shut him out of the hotel room but in no way compromised his safety (for all I know he spent the intervening hours in the hotel lobby bar knocking back single malts). And, as usual, I am sitting here tearing my hair out, trying to find a way to get him to open up and being given the silent treatment.

I've spent some time on the internet this morning looking at PA behaviour. I'm sure he doesn't have the PA personality disorder as generally he is a very good, loving, honest man who holds down a very stressful and highly-paid job and - this issue aside - our marriage is strong and we have a good relationship. But I just can't BEAR this passive aggressive shit.

What am I supposed to do?
Any tips for how I can make myself feel better while his mood subsides?
Any tips for how I can snap him out of it?
Should I apologise for locking him out of the room?

Sorry - this is an essay - just feel like I'm going mad here. Thanks if you got this far.

YallaYalla,

I've just read this thread from beginning to end and wanted to offer some support. You come across as a very intelligent, articulate and emotional woman, which is very much to your credit. It's a positive pleasure to read from someone that can actually express themselves in a reasoned and self-critical fashion.

I have worked for Samaritans in my time and, whilst you are overseas, you may find them (or their equivalent) useful, if only to offload some of the powerful emotions you have been feeling recently.

I'm not going to offer any advice or judgement on your situation, as I don't realy feel qualified to, other than to say some small part of me identifies with your husband.

I have been down that passive-aggressive route, in part as a reaction away from the abuse my Father displayed to my Mother - I was, for many years, scared of losing my temper in the way that I saw him do and so went too far the other way, bottling everything up deep within and only letting things out in the coldest and most clinical of ways.

I suspect he may only face up to what is going on if you leave, with an understanding that you will return as and when he is prepared to have the 'big talk' that you want, rather than the small ones every now and then.

I hope this works out for you and that both manage to sort something out.

Thanks Bored, that's very helpful indeed. It seems there are indeed a lot of similarities. I think things have only become so bad recently as I'm really pushing stuff. Our 'pattern' before was exactly as you describe. In particular I can really relate to the arguments about where to eat etc.

We always seem to have these! Sometimes I think it's that he doesn't want to say where he wants to eat and then blames me afterwards if I don't choose what he wanted (he wants to avoid an argument but chooses wrong way of going about it). Sometimes I think he's setting me up (i.e. doesn't say what he wants, so he can blame me either way afterwards, meaning he's a twat).

I can also totally relate to what you describe as your reaction to his moods - screaming, shouting, throwing stuff. It's exactly what I do (well apart from throwing stuff, really try not to do that).

I have also tried just ignoring him back. My mother does this to my dad when he does this, and it does 'work' for me. He usually comes round, although it can take many more hours or even days. But it doesn't always work. And lately I have begun to think - why should I put up with this crap?

At the very best case scenario, we have your scenario. Major communication issues, bad patterns of repeated behaviour. It will require major counselling and a willingness on his behalf to change, as you so wisely say.

At the moment I'm still trying to unpick how much of it is JUST him abusing me, and how much of it I am consciously or subconsciously adding to the problem.

But gut instinct says that I'm not really doing anything wrong myself. And that he's being cruel. At least some of the time.

Within your posts you've said he's bad not mad. You think he hasn't injured you only because he'd lose his job and look bad in the community.

But you're looking to try and work on the relationship.

I don't get it - I like being with my partner because he is a good person. I couldn't be with someone who was not a good person. The stuff above does not describe a good person - I wouldn't even want to be friends let alone partners.

I think the ladies on this thread would understand more than me:
no idea if your DP is a narcissist though

Sorry not to be more helpful but I just DON'T GET IT.

BarmyArmy - thanks for your post, and kind words and support. It means a lot to hear that I don't sound completely mad! I think that's part of my frustration. I feel that I am analysing things correctly and fairly to both of us, but he suggests I'm the one over-thinking everything.

I can't call the Samaritans from here but it may be a useful (not to mention free!) form of support if I do end up back home.

Thanks for sharing your passive-aggressive stuff. I can see in some ways why DH would have done this as a child too, as a coping mechanism. Underneath it all he is hurt. I know he had a couple of events in childhood that will have really scarred him. But at some stage you have got to take responsibility.

When you say 'bottling things up and only letting things out in the coldest and most clinical of ways', that really resonates with me. I feel that's what he does. I push him and push him for reaction/emotion/opinion, and what comes out can be very cold.

I think he has GOT to agree to counselling. But I don't think he will. He might, if I leave. But not if I stick around.

MyGuy

The reason I don't just pack my bags now is:

• I live overseas and have no family home in the UK to return to

• Currently I am financially dependent and I need to have everything lined up before I do go

• He's not bad all the time, otherwise why would I still be here? I would say 95% of our times have been wonderful, happy and fulfilling. I know that doesn't mean it's ok for him to treat me like this for the remaining 5% of the time, but in my head, when I think of DH (obviously not now though) I think of a warm, generous loving man I have been happy to share my life with.

• I have spent a decade in this relationship and, while with hindsight warning signs were there, it is only in the last 4 weeks that I have worked out what is going on. If you have friends who you've known for YEARS, and they start behaving like twats for a month, do you ditch the friendship? I wouldn't. If that makes me a bad person then so be it.

Clearly if things continue I will have to go. But I challenge anyone just to leave like that in my position.

Sorry if you just "DON'T GET IT".

I am asking enough horrible questions of myself here, without others doing so as well.

i have to say i am the lone voice ( as frickin per ) but i think your both unbelievably immature.

your dh is a nob for sure - but i do rather think you like a whirlwind of drama around you.

you can't hit him, snatch things off him call him names - and then claim HIM to be a wifebeater becuase he threw a bowl at your feet ( you did admit you try not to throw things - which means you do)

yes he shuts down - can't communicate - its not good, not good at all - like i said nobby behaviour - but i think you are just as bad - sorry!

dont bring kids into this carcrash ffs.

goodluck.

Why not leave while he is away?

Nothing will change or if it does, it won't last.

Yo might never have as good a time as now to escape to your new life.

Thanks custardo.

Sorry that the fact that I am facing the possibility of a marriage breakdown, alone and in a foreign country, is just an annoying 'drama' for you.

Why bother posting if my situation is such an annoyance to you.

YallaYalla just read your thread.

You have got some great advice on this thread. Your thread made me think of this one I really would recommend you take a look. The OP on that thread went through such a journey with MN's support - she recognised her H's abuse which then escalated once he'd realised she was onto him.

Just a few thoughts:

Re him leaving you abandoned on holiday - even if you had £ for a taxi - I think this is unacceptable - who as a women in an unfamiliar Asian country when on holiday would want to get a taxi on their own? I do not believe that he thought you said you'd see him back at the hotel. He is making you doubt yourself.

When you locked your H out of the hotel room and he was away for 5 hours - he told you that he came back loads of times and you didn't hear? TBH that sounds like bullshit. How come you heard him the last time? Because he made sure you did.

Re a trial separation - if you would be trying a separation if you were in the UK - the IMO you absolutely must separate now.

If he is at all reasonable and the marriage is worth saving he will communicate with you over phone/internet to resolve things etc.

Is there some way that you can work from the UK - via the internet - not sure if you are employed or self-employed? As it sounds like self employed then I would recommend you tell your clients that you have a family emergency.

Tell your H that you have to get away to "think". I would think that his response to your departure will be very enlightening.

Good luck.

Fab - I am considering that. Just waiting for some paperwork before I can go. Might be another couple of weeks.

custardo have you read the post????? It is VERY clear that her DH is an emotional abuser and has now threatened physical abuse. They are NOT as bad as each other.

OP sorry to crash in but it sounds to me that you are in danger. Please try to find somewhere public / safe to talk to your DH. Better still, print out this post, and LEAVE. Take this with you and read it on the plane. Then thank your lucky stars that you have left an abusive relationship. You will only be glad, glad, glad. Your life can start again in the UK. You can relax, stop treading on eggshells and hopefully have a relationship with someone who will love you and not try (or succeed) to control you.

I've been there with the emotional abuse (silent treatment, isolating me from support or trying to) and believe me you only really see the extent of it when you're out of it.

balloonslayer yep. How amazing and kind of you to remember. I had exactly this treatment from my now exh. And I was driven to the exactlysame extremes of shouting, misery and confusion.

I have just read this thread from the beginning.

Yalla, this marriage is over. You may still have a bit of fight left in you to "save" it and you will just have to work that through. But eventually you are going to see that it is over.

At that point (and it will be soon, because he knows now that you are not going to accept his disgusting treatement of you anymore and so he will have already moved on in his head despite his words of 'love') you must begin to tell RL friends and family all the details of the stonewalling, the gaslighting, abandoning you on holiday, threatening to punch you, threatening you with the idea that you are trapped with this man forever, the lot.

You will come through this and get over him.

I am so sorry. Men like this need to have warning fucked-up abuser tatooed on their foreheads.

I would not be surprised either if he had a major porn habit (unbeknownst to you), fantasised about group sex or sex with men, sex with animals, sex with prostitutes, has had sex with prostitutes in the past, has abused previous partners..

Another thing. Secure yourself financially. Do not let an account be drained of money or a joint account to be raided. take out any joint savings you have from any accounts and put them into an account in your own name.

Just be prepared. That is all I am saying. When they know the game is well and truly over, they thieve and run.

Unlikelyamazonian - Hang on a sec, you warn the OP not to let her joint accounts be raided of money and then tell her to do exactly that?

Surely an equitable solution would be for her to withdraw half of any joint monies?

Sorry if I've misunderstood your post but it does read as though you are telling her to 'thieve and run', as you put it.

Nope. Not at all.

OP is clearly not the type to thieve and run. Her H is.

The Op will be fair and equitable in the face of a fair and equitable split.

He will not.

Right now she must protect herself and take charge of any monies while she can.

Tabouleh - thanks for your helpful post.

re dumping me in Asian city, it was bad, but not quite as bad as it sounds. It wasn't late at night, I knew my way very well around by this point, it was in a main area of a safe city and - well put it this way - I have literally been to warzones so I'm quite a tough cookie! BUT it is the principle which is wrong. It's the principle that got me so angry, rather than the actual possibility of harm coming my way.

I actually think you could be right about him lying about knocking on the hotel door. There was a similar incident years ago (before marriage). In a foreign place, huge argument (well he had a go at me out of nowhere, told me to 'just leave' in the coldest voice imaginable). So I went back to hotel. I passed out, so couldn't let him him when he claimed he knocked (we'd had a lot to drink) and eventually hours later he barged in having got a key off the porter. Was FURIOUS with me. Went to pack his bags in the morning to leave me (we were on hols with my parents). Because I was so mortified of thought of my parents finding out, I literally begged him not to leave. He said he'd been knocking and knocking. I never heard him. Perhaps it was all a ploy. I was the one who ended up apologising, obviously. He said he didn't know what came over him and thinks he was upset because our holiday location reminded him on where he and an ex GF went on holiday.

Point is, it's not the first time this has happened. At the time I didn't see the pattern. In fact I only remembered this past incident very recently. It's strange - patterns of behaviour are suddenly becoming clear, whereas before they were isolated incidents. It's like a cloud being lifted.

Unlikely - thanks for your insight. It hurts for you to say 'this marriage is over'. Or rather, it hurts to hear it. But I have to accept that if he won't change, I will have to choose NOT to suffer this and therefore things might end. It's very frightening.

I have told one friend everything. I have told another friend bits of this. Neither are telling me what to do (and I totally appreciate that). It's good to get everybody's opinions.

It's exactly as you say. I think that if I continue down this path (which as a woman with SOME self-respect left I feel I have to), that eventually we will split.

But it's so hard to accept that. I feel like I am having to do all the work here. I will have to be the brave one and confront it. I will suffer the most (financially etc afterwards). And that makes me angry.

And yes. I am securing myself financially. That's why I haven't left yet. I know he will turn nasty if things end.

But also... well, I find it so difficult to accept. I can't BELIEVE this is my life. I never in a million years thought this would happen to me. Feisty old me. I still desperately love him - I can't just switch that off. That's why I feel paralysed.

Of course it hurts. You are (were) strong, able, and know (knew) your own mind. This is what they want to destroy.

They fuck you up with their campaign of Love and Confusion.

They make you doubt your own mind and go against your own principles. They make you reach for a drink and hate yourself as much as they hate themselves.

They use their apparently shit lives as sticks to beat you with.

They want you to earn the spondoolies. They just want to hurt you. And in the end they just come down to wanting to kick you into the gutter for loving them in the first place.

Believe me, this marriage is not fixable and is over. You will see that soon.

But you are still young. Hurrah! I think you would LOVE to have children and a squeezy few babies to cherish and lavish all your obvious good-hearted love on. Why sacrifice your future on the altar of a dysfunctional man's cruelty? You were not put on this earth to make him happy.

He is so wrong when he says this will not split you up.

He knows this.

You must get out, get on with your life, and find someone as emotionally intelligent as you to love and have a lovely life with.

Read some books about it all, understand much earlier than I did that our screwed-up childhoods often turn us women into rescuers. Stop it! Start having fun with your life. And babies. And finding yourself somebody who wouldnt bloody dare to abandon you like he did those nights. (Been there. Horrid Horrid Horrid)

And yes. Of bloody course he didn't ring the 'broken' bell for half an hour. Half a fucking hour? Bollocks. He would have knocked after two minutes. You so want to believe him you are blind. Soon it will be real to you though, just what an almighty shit he is capable of being.

He probably was in the bar having those malts or just wratcheting up your angst...whilst you berated yourself in the room. How fucking sad. But yes. Been there.

Get out. Run. Run and find some peace girl.

I honestly meant I just didn't get it, whereas I can see there are reasons why it's so hard having read the NPD thread I linked to.

I guess I meant that it's so hard to understand when you haven't been there, which the people on that thread have.

I can see I was a bit blunt but thought that perhaps that might help. Not sure why! Your reaction to posts you're not happy with is quite forceful. I can understand why as you're in such a stressful place right now. But I think it's worth looking at that along the journey that you're embarking on. People are generally just trying to help on here, even if it doesn't seem like it.

its not an annoyance at all. I'm sorry you didn't like my post, but i have a different perspective to most and thought it might give you pause for thought as i think you both have issues.

I understand that you are now facing a marriage breakdown in a foreign country ( hence the goodluck i posted) I do agree that you should ensure yourself financial security and take measures to do so. I also hope that you get lots of support i real life and here on mumsnet.

again, good luck.

MyGuy - 'your reaction to posts you don't like is quite forceful'.

I am not reacting to posts I don't like badly. If someone wants to tell me he's a twat and I should leave, that's great. I welcome all views as obviously I can't see things clearly now, which is why I'm posting for some anonymous advice.

What I am reacting to is people kicking me when I'm down. Trust me, I already feel about as awful as it's possible to feel. I haven't slept properly for weeks, I can't concentrate, I feel constantly sick and I am facing a total upheaval of my life and the end of my dreams. I feel BAD. I don't need snide comments.

I accept I am a bit grouchy! And I also accept that your post wasn't meant nastily . I honestly welcome all views (well, apart from custardo's weird comments). I know people are trying to help and I'm very grateful for everyone who is advising me.

Peace, man!

Unlikely - thanks for your feedback. Yep - I checked our room bill. He WAS in the bar. Having dinner and drinks. Meanwhile I was in the hotel room feeling wretched. Lovely.

A question - why do screwed up childhoods make us rescuers? One of the things I'm struggling with is why - when I so detest the way my father would not talk to my mother for days on end - I have married a similar man? He never did this silent treatment I don't think before marriage, but other stuff was present. But WHY?

Also, I am feeling a lot of anger towards my dad right now. Angry that I was forced to learn this model. Angry that it's only now, when I told a friend my husband sometimes won't speak to me for days on end, that that's not normal. I just thought it was how some men were. I never thought it was horrid. I don't blame my father for my marriage - this is my problem - but I do feel a lot of anger towards him. Is this normal?

ok thanks custardo, no hard feelings.

MyGuy - yes, it looks so damn obvious from the outside. Or, rather, it should - but it doesn't. People you know may notice a few off-colour remarks between a couple, or a little tension maybe. They might even talk about a "volatile" relationship. But the slow, ratcheting screw of emotional abuse is insidious. It can destroy its target's personality - and gets more satisfaction if the deystroyed character was once strong.

From inside the relationship, it's almost impossible to observe: that's why people in these forums try to push the message home. Somebody posted the metaphor of a boiled frog: pop the frog in a pan of boiling water, it will jump right out. Put it in cold water, heat it slowly - and the frog adapts to its warmer environment. Until it boils to death.

Hi YallaYalla,

Re your comment:-

"I guess what I find hard is that the 'abuse' in our families really wasn't that bad. My parents are very devoted, my father is a great father (although not when he's treating my mother badly), I would say it's quite minor (compared to some of the stuff you hear about of course). And the same in DH's family. His mum is incredibly hard at times but everyone cares about each other and knows they are loved. Both of our families have their own ishoos but they both function, are both still together, still feel 'normal' despite some very poor behaviour at times".

Well they think that (it makes it easier and denial is a powerful force) but they are still bloody dysfunctional and will remain so. I would not actually call your Dad a great dad at all; he is a bully who uses words and bullying tactics to control his victim.

Many people who actually come from dysfunctional families write similar. These children now adults often downplay or minimise what happened which is what you are doing now (i.e it was not that bad). But it is and it was. Both his and your family units are and remain dysfunctional; small wonder therefore you both learnt damaging lessons which also play out to this day. Unlike him, you have learnt that this situation is unhealthy and dysfunctional. He will likely never have that particular insight.

I would not call what happened at all minor - its still abuse regardless.

D'you think your Mother would want this life for you - no. She probably feels its too late for her and has no fight left so she has stayed with her H. You do not have to make the same mistake.

My guess as well is that his ex gf got fed up with your now H as he tried on this type of dysfunctional crap on her. She saw the light and left. Unfortunately (and this is partly due to what you saw with your parents relationship when growing up) you've married an almost carbon copy of your Dad. Your H and your Dad seem very similar.

Thought as well he bullied you into making the move to where you are now. He planned this and isolated you further, it was all deliberate on his part.

Unfortunately for you as well, you may see how abusive he was only when you are fully separated from him. Then you will wonder why on earth you did not get out sooner.

Grace - the frog thing made me laugh. Thanks! I am raising a smile over my extremely large glass of wine (only way I can sleep these days).

If they get more satisfaction from destroying a 'strong' woman, well he picked the right target. I'm the last person in the world I would ever have thought this would happen to. It's just crept up on me.

Embarrassing, but true. Why did I stand for that shite? [rhetorical question, kicks self]

It is natural and normal to fel anger against a parent like your Dad. What may come as a surprise to you subsequently is that you may also start to feel anger towards your Mum as well. She has remained within this marriage and you may well wonder why this is the case.

You married a similar man to your Dad and your subconscious played a role here. We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents - what did yours really teach you?.

Some children now adults in relationships if their own family was dysfunctional or emotionally unhealthy can become perfectionistic in nature (my dear H is certainly a perfectionist and his own family is certainly dysfunctional), super responsible for the other person or rescuers to name but three. However, you cannot rescue or save someone who ultimately does not want to be saved. A person cannot act as either a rescuer or a saviour within a relationship, neither approach works.

I wish you the very best of luck in extricating yourself from him as it will be hard for you on so many levels. Please keep writing here.