What Would You Do?

[YallaYalla]

Hi,

Looking for a bit of advice please. I am slowly working out that DH has some major issues with passive aggressive behaviour. We've just come back from a week-long holiday and he is no longer talking to me because of a row we had on the last day. He has gone into emotional shutdown and as usual I am paying the price.

In brief: I wanted to do something (buy a souvenir on our last night) which he didn't want to do; I could tell he wasn't keen and offered to leave him in the bar we were having sundowners in while I nipped up to the shop; he didn't take me up on this offer, and also did not say he didn't want to do it when I asked him in a friendly way about it.

So we leave bar and walk to shop buy souvenir, him seemingly in an ok mood. On leaving shop he gets into a major strop because he was very sweaty and hot from the walk (tropics) and within a space of about 5 minutes shuts down totally.

Doesn't want to do anything, goes mute, won't respond to queries of if he's ok, my offers to go and stand in areas where there is AC, queries about which bar he would like to go to next and where we should have dinner on our last night.

Eventually he says he's had enough and wants to go back to the hotel and do nothing/watch TV. It's 8pm, it's the last night of our holiday and we're both dolled up for a good night out.

I'm pretty pissed off, but use my usual tactics for snapping him out of these moods - cuddling him, ignoring his mood, teasing him gently, trying to take charge in a non-confrontational way. It worked for a bit, and then I got a bit exhausted by the whole effort and said, fine, let's go back to the hotel. We are waiting in a taxi queue and I say I'm just popping into this shop to use the loo.

He claims he thought I said 'see you back at the hotel'. I though I'd made it fairly clear I was just nipping to the loo but it's possible he didn't hear me as we were about 10 metres away from each other. Anyway, point is, I return from the loo and he's vanished.

He KNOWS I have no money in my pocket whatsoever (he always carries the cash on nights out on holiday) and no mobile phone which I've left in the hotel safe. So he's dumped me in the middle of a capital city in Asia. Admittedly, it's a safe city, it's not late, I know the way back to the hotel 20 minutes away, and we're in a really touristy area. But it's the principle of just being dumped like that without even money for a taxi. I'm furious. Walk back to hotel room.

Half an hour later he shows up. I am fuming. Not proud of what happens next but I use the security chain to stop him getting access to the hotel room. I tell him he's not coming in as he dumped me in a foreign city with no resources. He asks again to be let in. I say no and slam the door shut.

Eventually, at 2am, he tries the door again. This time I've softened and feel pretty bad for locking him out of the room (even though HE had his wallet and credit cards and finances mean he could easily booked himself another room in the same hotel for the night). I let him in, he walks in in silence and hasn't spoken to me since.

We flew home in silence and he sat separately to me from the plane. Now we are home and he's still in the silent treatment mode, sleeping on the sofa. Total emotional frigging shutdown.

Now. I KNOW I was unreasonable to prevent him access to the hotel room for a few hours. I haven't apologised yet either (he's stonewalling me and I don't see what value it would have at this time). But, as usual, it's me who looks the nutter.

He could not express feelings on us going to the shop. He 'punishes' me for taking us there by shutting down emotionally, and then abandoning me on the last night of our holiday in a foreign city with no bloody money in my pocket. I shut him out of the hotel room but in no way compromised his safety (for all I know he spent the intervening hours in the hotel lobby bar knocking back single malts). And, as usual, I am sitting here tearing my hair out, trying to find a way to get him to open up and being given the silent treatment.

I've spent some time on the internet this morning looking at PA behaviour. I'm sure he doesn't have the PA personality disorder as generally he is a very good, loving, honest man who holds down a very stressful and highly-paid job and - this issue aside - our marriage is strong and we have a good relationship. But I just can't BEAR this passive aggressive shit.

What am I supposed to do?
Any tips for how I can make myself feel better while his mood subsides?
Any tips for how I can snap him out of it?
Should I apologise for locking him out of the room?

Sorry - this is an essay - just feel like I'm going mad here. Thanks if you got this far.

Oh, and saying that you looked "sexy" when you were obviously feeling very upset and vulnerable rings huge warning bells. That's like saying "You are most attractive to me when you're humiliated and I've got a reaction out of you"

No sane, balanced, loving man would behave like that. He sounds sadistic.

Hi YallaYalla,

Re your comment:-

"Yes, his whole attitude about all of this (even me asking him to 'talk' about our problems) is done with a 'this is my wife's problem and not mine' attitude.

I know this is RIDICULOUS for a grown woman to have to ask this, but it IS bad for a man to say that to his wife, isn't it?"

Yes, it is bad.

Ultimately his issues are about power and control. This is what abuse is all about.

I hope you start putting the wheels in motion soon to get away from your H. You can still walk away from him currently. Do not let him make you too afraid for you to leave him.

There is no rhyme or reason to his behaviour and he would certainly be many years work to a therapist. The only person who can help your husband here is him and he simply does not want to because he does not believe there is a problem or he has done actually anything wrong.

Yall, agree it would be dangerous. I know why you want to confront him. I know I would want to do that too.
But your H now seem to be showing his true colours. He knows that, by being abroad, you are in a vulnerable position. That you can't just go to spend the night at your parents/friend.

Don't confront him too much until you have an escape route.

Attila - yes I think he has/will have a major problem in accepting this as 'his' problem. It is clear to me he also feels no remorse. That's a pretty crappy thing to realise.

Buda - I have started making plans.

euromum - thanks for your post. Thanks for your kind words, they were lovely to hear. I totally agree with the argument thing. Him staring into space while I howl in tears or in anger. Me feeling completely insane and consumed by a physical rage because it's like arguing with a martian or being in a parallel dimension. FWIW, I think your situation sounds a lot like mine, and therefore bad. I'm sorry for you. Perhaps you should post here for support. But I wouldn't take any further advice from me obviously!!!!!

Balloon - yes it would be much harder with kids but we don't have any. Actually he is really quite against kids (ishoos) and certainly is not begging me for any! So that's one good thing.

Fab at 14.11 - I hear you. It's exactly what Bancroft's book says but it just seems so unreal. He is sooooo respectable in real life. Amazing high flier.

Oh God the frustration

I know the frustration. The bit that makes you feel crazy, the bit that gives them even more power over you (since to the whole world they are passive and you are behaving erratically)

By the end my H was punching/headbutting walls next to me. He would split his knuckles open doing it. And I was terrified he was going to hit me. He never did, but it was still abuse. And I did slap him. When he wouldn't talk, when he rolled his eyes and stonewalled me for weeks on end, and I screamed and wailed and he didn't even look at me. I slapped him. And I'm not proud of it. But there is no frustration like it. That level of pressure is so unbearable.

I found my strength by emotionally distancing myself from him.

He is like this now Yalla because you have questioned it.

Is it possible that you might work through things? That he might take responsibility and work on his issues?

In theory, it can be done. There is a small percentage of people who change. They're the ones who say "This is my fault" not "Blame my mother". And even they tend to only face up to it when they accept that they are abusive and have to face up to the consequences of that (i.e. move out).

So from here the solution seems simple; if you want to leave your marriage you need to move out, and if you want to save your marriage you need to move out.

You know when I read your account of what happened when you confronted him, I could see all the techniques used by an abuser. All of them one after the other.

Things haven't become bad very quickly and out of the blue. They were badin the first place. It's just that you hadn't quite realized how bad they were

Just another though : there is nothing wrong with you or your behaviour. He is creating the very stituations where he kows you will lose the plot and start being angry. He is using you to get what he wants ie making you feel bad about your behaviour and be sure he is still i control and you are walkig on egg shells.

"For some reason I feel like I have to at least tell him how bad it is, and to demand immediate and critical change from him. Rather than just leave".

Why do you think that way?. Examine carefully your own reasons for writing the above.

You have done this already with the result that you hit him and he ended up stonewalling you again. The same, if not a worse outcome for you (he could well throw that punch), will happen again. He has already said that (and I quote him directly here), 'Remember, we are not splitting up. We will stay together.' If that is not a veiled threat towards you I don't know what is.

Yalla,
One important thing to bear in mind.
It might look like a bunch of women are yelling "Leave him" like it's the easiest thing in the world.
Anyone who has been there knows it is not.
You don't just leave.
Leaving happens in stages.
Stage 1 is usually telling or deciding to tell someone. Which you are doing here.
It's all on the Women's Aid site.
Take a deep breath.

YallaYalla.

Am certain your H is very plausible to those in the outside world. This is all part of the act and image they cultivate. Behind closed doors it is a different story.

I would say that leaving him also has to be done in stages. Also as his victim he will not want to let go of you easily. It therefore has to be a planned exit strategy on your part.

I take it you're in an expat community?. There must be somewhere or someone you can talk to in your area who deals with domestic violence issues; you need their support too.

In the longer term as well getting onto the "Freedom" programme run by Womens Aid (if you return to the UK) will assist you further.

I have been in this situaion. I found it very useful to educate myself as to why he does it. I have foun Patricia Evans book illuminating. It has helped me to realise that there is NOTHING I can do for him. Only he can do that.

There has been a lot I have done for ME though. Often when we talk bout abusers, we say, well they don't treat anyone else like that. That is true, but turn it on it's head.....woukd you allow anyone else to treat you like that? To gaslight you into believing you are mad? I doubt it, you'd think they were nuts and keep your distance! I have found that learning to love and respect myself has forced him into facing the fact that, no, the kids don't want to be with him, I don't want to spend time with him....because h's really bloody horrible to me! Why would I?

He wanted to come and do a bbq at the weekend, I said why would I want to share a meal with someone who calls me a bully and a terrible mother? I wouldn't and I don't.

Look inside yourself.

We are separated, and we will continue to be o until he has completed extensive specialist therapy. I am aware that the future of our marriage is bleak at best, but I have two children growing up with a terrible relationship role model. Can't do that to them.

Attila - yes I hear you. It's all about control. I am not afraid to leave him, but I am afraid of leaving and regretting it. I have devoted almost a decade to this relationship.

Leaving would involve moving country, moving house, finding a job again. Big steps. I'm fairly sure if I was in the UK with a job I'd be lodged at a mate's house giving him the proverbial 2 fingers by now.

Buda - it's not too dangerous I don't think. Without giving away too much there is a lot I could do to 'harm' him back (not physically) just by making a couple of phone calls here. Perhaps that's why he's merely threatening to punch me and not actually doing it. Any report of DV would sink his career overnight. He knows that, I know it. So it's 'merely' threats of violence. I know that's still incredibly WRONG and f+cked up, but he's not mad, he's bad. And he knows that if he were to lay a finger on me - for reasons particular to our circumstances here - his career would be over in an instant.

Crunch - helps to hear someone else say they know the frustration. Sorry about what your ex did, that really is awful. It makes you feel like you're going crazy, doesn't it? I end up with a burning rage inside me. I usually try not to direct it at him but it's all-consuming.

I guess what's preventing me from leaving is - because due to circumstances of living overseas etc - that a temporary separation could very easily become permanent, without it necessarily needing to. How would we meet for chats etc if he did agree to work it out? There is no middle ground. If we were both in the UK I'd be out by now, bags packed and all. But I'm worried that a temporary separation will become permanent for needless practical reasons, rather than emotional ones.

I am in a place where I realise this might now be the end. I guess I am just scared to end it by 'accident' rather than by having fully tried 100%.

I know this sounds a bit nuts

Is there anyway you could stay in a hotel for a couple of weeks? Just for a bit of breathing space and to see if he would get on a counseling course? You need space. You need distance. If you can't bear thinking of flying all the way home then is there somewhere else you could stay for a while?

What is there really to regret?. You can start again, you're never too old to start again.

You think you can still fix him with some give and take on both sides?. That is a No no and no again.

You may regret it if you ended up staying with him. He is not worth this very real pain you are feeling.

You've had ten years of him, how d'you think the next ten will pan out for you?. Life is too short to be on the receiving end of emotional abuse and threats honestly.

As for your comment:-
"How would we meet for chats etc if he did agree to work it out"

In his mind there is nothing to work out.
I think it is all too clear from his stonewalling that he does not want to meet you even halfway on these issues. Infact he thinks there are no issues and that you are mad to even bring it all up. He thinks the problem lies with you, not him. Again he is projecting and is not taking responsibility for anything he has done. He is showing no real remorse for what has happened and he is certainly not sorry.

A safe place for you to stay will be an excellent idea.

As for a counselling course, he would likely never even entertain the idea. Its pointless (though understandable) to even suggest such a course of action.

BTW how did he sell this idea of moving overseas to you?. I actually think this was also planned on his part to get you away from your inherent support network.

Thanks for all your perspectives. It's very helpful.

To be fair, it probably sounds like we've been back and forth discussing these issues for weeks. We haven't. Because of my trip home and his horrendous work schedule we've only seen each other about 3 days this month, sometimes just for a few hours at a time.

I haven't actually got to the point where I have said to him: "You are emotionally abusing me and I won't accept it any longer. I will leave if you don't change."

THAT is the chat I am planning for later this week (the one that he clearly doesn't really want to have).

I realise this might sound like nit-picking, and I'm really not trying to make excuses here, but I have not laid his treatment of me on the line yet. I need to, certainly. I think owe him that. Or at least me. So that I can know for myself that I raised it. But he has been on the road almost constantly. He is back later this week, I will go in all guns blazing then.

I accept I might need to leave. I accept I need to prepare. I accept this could get worse. I accept he's being an abusive excuse for a husband.

I guess I just want to be able to get it through to him when we do talk exactly WHAT I'm upset about. To make him understand.

Although, experience and past form suggests he will find a way for me not to be able to get these things across in a sane manner .

And I guess that's my key problem here isn't it?

I think I somehow have a weird and twisted need to know that I DID tell him exactly what the problem is. If he then chooses to ignore me, battle me, dismiss me, well that's his problem. I can then know he was fully aware of his actions.

Attila - we've been overseas for years. I was very happy to move to the first location, less happy to move to where we are now. But he earns huge money so we've always followed his career. I was happy to, and have been very successful in my career as a result too (I have worked informally everywhere). But I felt bullied into this final move.

I think things have come to a head now because I'm unhappy where we are and am making more demands of him.

I doubt he would agree to counselling. I know his previous GF before me wanted him to (although I never learned what for) and he refused, and eventually they split. But that was very much HIS decision (and I have this confirmed from many external sources). He was happy to split. But she had wanted counselling and he refused.

Not looking great, is it?!

Buda - yes you're right. Once I read about control and stuff online, the patterns just leapt out at me. It's honestly like he's following a script. It's quite amazing how accurate it all is.

op - i don't think you are nuts but i would like to tell you about my family situation.

my dm was 'bought' up by a man who behaved in exactly the same way as your dh, she is now 70, over the years she has had to fight depression,feelings of being worthless etc.

she has had huge problems in showing affection to either my df or us kids (and we know she loves us) she has caused huge problems with her behaviour, she can, if allowed, sulk for months - luckily, she met my df who quite frankly has had the paitience of a saint but thankfully met her behaviour head on and will not tolerate sulking/silence etc. (she knows it is destructive and tries very hard to be 'better' but of course, learnt behaviour is almost impossible to 'unlearn')

i suppose what im trying to say is that the behaviour of your h could have knock on effects for many years and for a lot of people - my lovley dm has had her emotional life ruined by a nasty, vindictive bully whose love and approval she tried so hard to gain but was never given and all these years on that man, my so-called dgf, is having a negative effect on our family

i would urge you to leave and start again, you sound a very nice person who deserves better - btw - it sounds like my df 'saved' my dm, the fact is that she has always realised that that type of behaviour was not normal and wanted very much to try and break the pattern, something your dh does not appear to realise.

jesus - thanks for the insight. I realise this can continue down the generations and I'm wary of that. My counsellor said similar, that issues like this can be passed down generation to generation.

I guess what I find hard is that the 'abuse' in our families really wasn't that bad. My parents are very devoted, my father is a great father (although not when he's treating my mother badly), I would say it's quite minor (compared to some of the stuff you hear about of course). And the same in DH's family. His mum is incredibly hard at times but everyone cares about each other and knows they are loved. Both of our families have their own ishoos but they both function, are both still together, still feel 'normal' despite some very poor behaviour at times.

I am not trying to negate our childhood experiences, but I guess just puzzled by how things can become so nasty and violent.

Yalla, when you are going to talk to him next week, could you try and find a 'neutral' place to do that?

Yalla, the not feeling physically threatened by your h reminds me of my relationship with now xh, he was physically violent (but that happened over time), when eventually I told people everyone was terrified for my safety, BUT, I was always so blase about it, I was convinced I was fine. One kind of beomes lulled into a false sense of normality, you feel your situation is normal, your h wont hit you. But he's threatened to do so, and he's thrown things at you causing you a cut (your having thrown his laptop first doesn't compare, you didn't throw it at his head).

I fear you're so used to living like this, your normal alarm response isn't working with him, does that make sense?

Even now when friends and family tell me to be careful out on the streets incase ex tries something I find it so hard to take seriously, I am an educated with it woman who holds down a high powered job, it wont happen to me...except it did and ex is psychotic, and very pissed I left him!

Buda - there isn't really anywhere appropriate. A public place wouldn't really be appropriate here. I think home would be best, although I know why you are suggesting somewhere neutral...

It's hard enough getting him to talk, let alone suggesting we go somewhere special to do it.

I would think about what fuzzywuzzy just said. Your alarm system might not be fully functioning. The description of your last 'discussion' and the threats afterwards are strong indicators to me that he could get much more violent.

fuzzy - I hear what you are saying. I suppose I've accepted a certain amount of this crap as 'normal'. And you do never know when someone might lose control. As I said earlier though, because of the nature of where and how we live, it could be very bad for him if he did injure me. And he knows it. I'm sure that's why he's held back so far. (sad to have to admit this!)

Agree my usual alarm bells are a bit rusty though. I would be advising another friend the same as you are, I guess somehow I feel I know him and what he would/wouldn't do. But several things he has done recently I would NEVER in a million years have thought he would do a month ago.

So I should be careful, you're right.

Like you I feel very pissed off about this all. I don't have a high-powered job as such but a pretty important, high-profile job which means I have to be bright, able, competent, quick. I am educated. So is my bastard husband!

By the way, I told him in some SMS messages yesterday that we needed to have a 'big talk' about stuff. To warn him.

He doesn't know exactly what I want to talk to him about though. He'll have an inkling I'm sure, but won't be expecting all the 'abuse/control' stuff.

Do you know what he said?

He basically said he will only talk in 'short bursts' and does not want a long chat as we'll just go round in circles.

And then he said that 'I should not pin all my hopes on one conversation changing all' and I am 'expecting too much as a result of a chat and need to be realistic about outcomes'.

Pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

Hi,
Have been reading your posts, and your relationship sounds a lot like mine used to.
DH would sulk because he chose to take something I had said the wrong way, or said I made all the decisions when I asked him what he wanted to eat/ were to go etc and he didn't actually want to do that.
I used to ask him why he didn't say anything at the time, and basically he just wanted to avoid an argument. He couldn't seem to see that by avoiding the issue, he was only making matters worse.
He did the not talking etc, and I did what you do - lose the plot, scream, shout and throw things because I was so angry that he was not taking any notice of me. To him, that justified his decision not to talk to me when he didn't want to do what I suggested - because he assumed I would behave the same way.
It got to the stage when I would just ignore him when he went into a sulk, and go off and do things by myself with our children. I didn't care if he was around or not, and it made my life easier if he wasn't as I wasn't trying to guess what mood he was in, or if I had said something that had upset him.
Not a very good place to end up.
We talked a lot about divorcing, but decided to give counselling a go as a last resort, but he did want to do this as well. We did couples counselling, and also saw someone different on our own. In our case the counselling took a good couple of years to start making a difference, and we had several 'last resort' sessions along the way. We both find things a bit difficult sometimes still.
I learned from my counselling that we behave in set ways - so my DH would do something, I would always react in the same way, provoking him to react in the same way. We had a set pattern, and a set range of responses. We also both made assumptions about what the other person said - choosing to think they meant the worse thing we could imagine, without trying to actually clarify what the other meant.
It took a long time for us both to try to change the way we reacted to each other, and that is what is still hard - trying not to repeat patterns of the past, and make better habits. But we both try and want to work things out.
Mt DH did want to sort this out as well, and it is still hard not to blame each other all of the time.
I think I'm trying to say that you may only be able to work this out if your DH is willing to try counselling.
I found out that my DH really hates arguments. His parents used to have some bad, often violent arguments when he was growing up, and he wanted to avoid arguing at all costs, with his father being the aggressive one.
Not sure if that is what your DH is trying to do, and not sure if my post helps at all.