What Would You Do?

[YallaYalla]

Hi,

Looking for a bit of advice please. I am slowly working out that DH has some major issues with passive aggressive behaviour. We've just come back from a week-long holiday and he is no longer talking to me because of a row we had on the last day. He has gone into emotional shutdown and as usual I am paying the price.

In brief: I wanted to do something (buy a souvenir on our last night) which he didn't want to do; I could tell he wasn't keen and offered to leave him in the bar we were having sundowners in while I nipped up to the shop; he didn't take me up on this offer, and also did not say he didn't want to do it when I asked him in a friendly way about it.

So we leave bar and walk to shop buy souvenir, him seemingly in an ok mood. On leaving shop he gets into a major strop because he was very sweaty and hot from the walk (tropics) and within a space of about 5 minutes shuts down totally.

Doesn't want to do anything, goes mute, won't respond to queries of if he's ok, my offers to go and stand in areas where there is AC, queries about which bar he would like to go to next and where we should have dinner on our last night.

Eventually he says he's had enough and wants to go back to the hotel and do nothing/watch TV. It's 8pm, it's the last night of our holiday and we're both dolled up for a good night out.

I'm pretty pissed off, but use my usual tactics for snapping him out of these moods - cuddling him, ignoring his mood, teasing him gently, trying to take charge in a non-confrontational way. It worked for a bit, and then I got a bit exhausted by the whole effort and said, fine, let's go back to the hotel. We are waiting in a taxi queue and I say I'm just popping into this shop to use the loo.

He claims he thought I said 'see you back at the hotel'. I though I'd made it fairly clear I was just nipping to the loo but it's possible he didn't hear me as we were about 10 metres away from each other. Anyway, point is, I return from the loo and he's vanished.

He KNOWS I have no money in my pocket whatsoever (he always carries the cash on nights out on holiday) and no mobile phone which I've left in the hotel safe. So he's dumped me in the middle of a capital city in Asia. Admittedly, it's a safe city, it's not late, I know the way back to the hotel 20 minutes away, and we're in a really touristy area. But it's the principle of just being dumped like that without even money for a taxi. I'm furious. Walk back to hotel room.

Half an hour later he shows up. I am fuming. Not proud of what happens next but I use the security chain to stop him getting access to the hotel room. I tell him he's not coming in as he dumped me in a foreign city with no resources. He asks again to be let in. I say no and slam the door shut.

Eventually, at 2am, he tries the door again. This time I've softened and feel pretty bad for locking him out of the room (even though HE had his wallet and credit cards and finances mean he could easily booked himself another room in the same hotel for the night). I let him in, he walks in in silence and hasn't spoken to me since.

We flew home in silence and he sat separately to me from the plane. Now we are home and he's still in the silent treatment mode, sleeping on the sofa. Total emotional frigging shutdown.

Now. I KNOW I was unreasonable to prevent him access to the hotel room for a few hours. I haven't apologised yet either (he's stonewalling me and I don't see what value it would have at this time). But, as usual, it's me who looks the nutter.

He could not express feelings on us going to the shop. He 'punishes' me for taking us there by shutting down emotionally, and then abandoning me on the last night of our holiday in a foreign city with no bloody money in my pocket. I shut him out of the hotel room but in no way compromised his safety (for all I know he spent the intervening hours in the hotel lobby bar knocking back single malts). And, as usual, I am sitting here tearing my hair out, trying to find a way to get him to open up and being given the silent treatment.

I've spent some time on the internet this morning looking at PA behaviour. I'm sure he doesn't have the PA personality disorder as generally he is a very good, loving, honest man who holds down a very stressful and highly-paid job and - this issue aside - our marriage is strong and we have a good relationship. But I just can't BEAR this passive aggressive shit.

What am I supposed to do?
Any tips for how I can make myself feel better while his mood subsides?
Any tips for how I can snap him out of it?
Should I apologise for locking him out of the room?

Sorry - this is an essay - just feel like I'm going mad here. Thanks if you got this far.

Exactly. What I am saying is that his problems are not mere "faults" as you originally put it. I do agree with you on one point though, he cannot be fixed by the OP.

Apologies for my grammer, maybe I did not get across what I was trying to say very well, basically, and sadly, in my opinion the Op has to decide if she can compromise and live with this aspect of her husband's personality.

Thank you for the further explanations. Yes, I think that is exactly what Yalla's trying to do.

that was a great link posted earlier - so i ma going to post it again!
www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/emotional_abuse.shtml

I have read all of your thread and I think you do come across as a drama queen

Isnt she. Fancy making a big deal about being verbally and emotionally abused !

Yalla , im glad your still posting , and glad youve spoken to your freinds , when you say it out loud it somehow becomes real. There will always be some people who dont understand , who just dont get it and try to minimise it or blame you. Dont take it on , just be glad they dont know .

Someone on a similar thread compared this waking up to the film the matrix, where you take a pill and you cant go back to not knowing. Did you get round to ordering those books ? Ive got most of them and wouldnt mind posting them to you or to a po box ?

bump

how are you yallayalla?

Not written on your post before but have followed it from the beginning and do hope that you are OK.

Hi,

It's me again. Thanks for all your ongoing support. Dignified - thank you - I have now read both Bancroft and Evans, but thanks for your very very kind offer anyway.

I have taken a few weeks out from this to tackle stuff in real life, but have just re-read the thread to try and focus myself.

It's crunch time for me - I need to be quick here.

It's really a simple question. If I have a termination and don't tell DH in advance (because I can't be sure of his reaction) is this very wrong? How wrong?

Will I end up hating myself? Will I end up hating him? Does he have a 'right' to know what I'm planning?

My friends are all very worried that a) I'll be wracked with guilt and b) it might force our marriage to end before I am ready to do it at my own pace, and that this might damage me in the long run.

We have talked a lot over the past few days. The facts are:

• He doesn't want to go to counselling and will only go if I force him

• He has finally said 'sorry' for his behaviours over the past few weeks but has not said explicitly what he's sorry for when pushed, only that he's sorry for the situation and that I'm upset. Attempts to get him to face his behaviour have resulted in me being accused of 'treating him like a child'

• He admits the silent treatment, abandoning me in city, bowl-throwing etc are not good, but is refusing to promise to stop. 'I can try to stop but there is no guarantee I will never do any of that again'. He was quite explicit about this. When I said this was frankly disturbing he said 'would you prefer it if I lied and made false promises to you'?

• He does not accept the bowl-throwing and threat to punch me are abusive - apparently it's my fault because in both of those situations I was aggressive first. 'You punched me first, with your fist', he said (which is a lie).

• He is not willing to consider leaving his job in order for us to return to the UK and have a more 'normal' life. I feel this is the only way our marriage could work as then we will both be on home ground and he will no longer have control.

I am apparently welcome to return to the UK and get a job and leave him working in his overseas assignment, but he absolutely will not quit his job for me. Apparently if I want a career and to be near friends etc with our child (i.e. be in the UK), then I would have to be prepared for him to continue to do his job overseas and only see each other once every few weeks. He claims that 'we' are more important than his job but the evidence says that's not the case. He is willing to be separated from his child in such a scenario - in effect for me to rear the child alone - and says people have done this 'for centuries' so it's ok.

Do I have to tell him I am planning a termination and if I do it in secret will I hate myself forever? Should I be upfront with him? (my friends all say I should).

Thanks for any views.

mini bump - is anyone up?

Yalla I have no advice except to say that it may take a while for people to realise this thread is active again - it's will have dropped off "threads I'm on" and so on.
So you are not being ignored - people with advice will find you soon I hope.

Wow, Yalla. Hello! Thank you very much for coming back - I've thought of you every day.

Your friends and your reading have done you good. You've gained excellent clarity about your relationship, although you still seem to be trying to believe you're married to a sane, rational human being - understandably.

He has told you he knows he's wrong and has told you he will not change.

He has blamed you for his abusive behaviours, going so far as to lie.

He's minimised his actions and their effects on you.

He has invalidated your feelings.

He's not willing to work for your marriage by going to counselling.

He's not willing to work for your marriage by moving back within reach of your support network.

He's not willing to change his lifestyle for your sake and your baby's.

He doesn't care if you go to live in another country.

I think, to all intents and purposes, your marriage is dead. It's now crystal clear that his conditions for being married are inflexible. He requires that you subjugate your needs & wishes to his convenience; you accept his bullying without question; you do not interfere with his lifestyle.

Apart from anything else, the above is incompatible with having a small child. You've done well to interrogate your relationship before the baby's arrival.

Yalla, do you want to have the baby? Did your friends agree that you should terminate if you come back here? It is possible to live successfully as a single mother. You've demonstrated your resourcefulness in winning freelance work - despite the hideous state of the UK economy, I'm pretty confident you'll make a go of things, with or without a child.

Leaving that for other discussion: If he were a sane, rational man with the usual range of emotions, I'd say there is a moral obligation to tell him of your thoughts. He is not such a man. I feel you must do what's going to work for you, taking no-one else into account. You do not have a moral obligation to him.

I'm still amazed, over and again, at the 'scripted' patterns of such people. In view of your husband's adherence to the pattern, I'd say he already knows you're moving out of his control (committing the sin of thinking for yourself) and has his eye on potential replacements. That may be why he's intransigent about moving.

I hope someone else comes along to discuss your options with you. It's wonderful that you've gained such strength since first posting here; use it for your own benefit, and your future blossoming.

Hugs.

I doubt you will pay any attention to me, but I just wanted to sound a note of caution. I think you might be being influenced by the thinking in a certain type of book and by mumsnet people.
Anything can be twisted to fit the theory if you try hard enough.
Your husband does not sound perfect, but find me one who is? He probably needs to work on things in his behaviour and you probably do too. I don't want to sound harsh, but I do want to make you stop and think away from the mumsnet urging.
When you are upset/ angry, then its because he made you upset/ angry. When you are crying, then he should comfort you. But a minute earlier you are describing how he is upset (curled up in a ball because he's so worried about how things are between you) and you didn't think it at all appropriate to comfort him. You hit him but you barely lament this. Whereas he threatened you verbally and you fret about it for a long time.
I could go on, but I don't want to tell you what to do. I am just suggesting that you get a real life perspective on all this, not a distorted, internet one.

You say he is generous.. so would he be willing to rent a flat for say 3 months near your British friends (wherever they live in the UK) and let you live there whilst you work out what you want to do? I say this because I know how trapped you can feel as an expat.

Hi Grace,

Good to hear from you again. Thanks so much for your input. It's great people care enough to respond, so thanks!

I guess when I see it written down in black and white then, yes, it does appear pretty grim. I agree it appears that he is totally inflexible - basically, we can remain happily married, in his view, but only as long as it's totally on his terms.

Amazingly, all this information has been given to me pretty straight up with no shouting etc. He was very matter of fact as he told me this stuff, there were no tears/angry scenes etc. At least, on some level, I am grateful that he appears to be being honest.

But in some ways I'm struggling to deal with the information he's given me as it was delivered so calmly. It's kind of confused me rather. That someone can say such things in such a run-of-the-mill way. Perhaps that's why I'm not feeling the utter shock that I should. I am still somehow too shocked or surprised to move.

Do I want to have this baby? Not on my own, no. I either have to terminate, or swallow all my fears and doubts and 'embrace' the decision to have the baby, and try and make a go of the marriage. But obviously to take that path I would have to be cognisant that I may well end up as a single mother.

I agree that if DH was more normal then, yes, of course I would tell him. My friends acknowledge this is not the case, but are really worried that I will suffer more afterwards (if I terminate) if I've done it in secret. Because then it will be my burden to carry, not his. After all, HE is the reason I am considering not going ahead with the pregnancy - so surely he should be made aware of this?

On one level I'm scared of how he would react if I said: 'I'm so concerned about our relationship I'm considering not having this baby'. I truly don't know how he - or for that matter any husband or man - would or should react to that. Am I scared? Maybe.

I think he suspects something is up. I have arranged to spend this weekend separately from him and - out of the blue - he suddenly said that, given all my crying/emotions over the past few days, that I should'nt be left alone. 'I don't know what silly ideas you'll get into your head', was how he put it. 'You need to be supervised', etc, although all dressed up in a very concerned manner because he's worried how my emotional state is affecting the pregnancy.

Does he know what I'm considering? Or can he sense me realising things are doomed?

I'm interested in your take on why he's stuck on not changing his career plans for me, Grace. I hadn't thought of this before. I hadn't considered he would be working one step ahead of me.

My wonderful friend who I've been staying with, by the way, believes I should tell him I am considering a termination. That's it's the only way I won't regret it afterwards.

Hi, can't remember if I've posted on this thread before but I've read it from the beginning and really hope you can find a way to get away from this man.

The calmness actually worries me a bit because it's as if he thinks he can just lay the 'facts' (aka his rules) on the line and you'll have no choice to accept them. In a 'normal' relationship there's always room for compromise and shared decisions.

My worry is that you plan to have the termination and then proceed with ending the marriage (if I've read right). I'm a bit nervous about what he'll do if you come home and say you've ended the pregnancy and now you want to start ending the relationship - might it not be better to leave (and I'd be inclined not to tell him about the termination - I don't trust his reactions at all) and then deal with the pregnancy at home? Or do you think he'd be worse at you walking away with his child? Of course I could've read it wrong!

Either way I think it's telling that it's so hard to predict how he'll react to you - that's definitely not a man you want bringing up a child, he makes me nervous and I only 'know' him through these threads!

re. the pregnancy, I'm pro-choice and think if you've assessed it and know you can't do it alone, that's fair enough. Though to make sure you don't end up regretting it, you could reexamine how much you want children (early on it was quite clear you did), because I think you'd make a fab mum. Don't think about 'oh I could stay and have the baby' though, because I don't really think staying is an option any more.

Anyway I've waffled enough, so best of luck and keep us updated if you can

If I'm wrong about this Yalla take no notice.
But do you secretly think he would suddenly change if you tell him about the baby and the termination at all?

Don't second guess or rely on anything from him this decision is all yours I'm afraid because as you rightly said in previous post, you will effectively be a single mother within the marriage anyway.
So if you decide you'd want the baby go for it because you will be a lone parent whichever way you go. Do what you feel is right for you.
But do not rely on any change of heart from your dp
Sorry you are going through this

Thanks for all the thoughts.

Hamster - Yes, it's the calmness that I find strange too. Also, I reacted calmly at the time(possibly shock?) and can only really, now we are apart for a couple of days, start to read into what this means and therefore how I should react. I am worried on some level - that is why I am so hesitant. I suppose, as you say, that this tells me all I need to know.

I agree that the main decision I need to make right now is 'do I want this baby (alone)'? I need to give that some really proper thought before I act rashly. On one level I'm worried about regretting not having the baby, when it might be my only chance for a child. But I am also very unsure if I want to be a single mother and if I will be in the best place I want to be when I start that life (probably will still be emotionally reeling from all this).

Dittany - Interesting what you say about money and control. One of my friends (who read this entire thread at my request) said the same thing: money is power. He certainly sees it that way.

Am I worried about what my parents think? A little I guess (shame? letting them down?) but I don't think it's driving my decisions. Money might be. If I were to stay I would never have to worry about money again. As a child, money was always an issue, a problem, I was always very aware that my parents (dad in particular) were stressed by this. Financial security is important to me (and DH). So perhaps I've stayed longer, or overlooked things, because the money was a comforting cloak. I need to look at why this is. What I am scared of. But I'm now at the point where no amount of money will compensate for my pain.

I also know my father, in particular, will feel very wounded by my marriage ending. He has drawn great satisfaction out of the fact I married 'well' for want of a better word, that I have a nice life and a nice pension, and can enjoy things he never had. He will be very upset - for selfish reasons - if this ends. I don't know, perhaps it is a factor in my thinking after all - that he/my parents will think I am mad for walking away from all the financial security in search of 'happiness', that may or may not come.

But really, I think fear of the unknown, fear of starting over, fear of his rage/reaction to a split or termination, are the main driving factors. He is constantly pointing out the UK is in a major recession and how would I find a good income? After a while these things start to stick in your mind. My parents have also insinuated the same and say he'd be mad to leave his job now(although they know nothing of my current plight).

The simple truth is I have no idea how he will react to me saying 'I am thinking of having a termination' (no, I harbour no hope this will kick him into action to change, it will simply be to ease my guilt at having done this in secret).

Am I mad to consider doing this? (my friends strongly suggest I should tell him, for my mental health more than anything) but I simply do not know what he will do with that information. He could go nuts.

Hi Yalla

I don't think I've posted on your thread before but I have followed it and have been interested to see what would happen. I think you're doing really well processing everything and I whether you decide to have a termination or bring up the baby on your own you will be able to cope.

But I would really urge caution about warning your husband about having a termination. I think he sounds pretty scary and, as you say, you have no idea what his reaction would be. He is not going to be reasonable and have a 'normal' conversation with you. He might go totally nuts and try and prevent you from going through with it - I don't know how but that stuff about 'you need to be supervised' is quite worrying.

Good luck with it all and try and put yourself first while you make your decisions. It's great that you've got good friends helping you but they might not really be able to see what he's like. Like Claire70 above they might not really get what it's like to be abused. But lots of people on here really do and I think their advice is brilliant.

Thanks Malinkey for your support. His actual words were 'You need close monitoring and supervision', as if I were some sort of mental patient. Kind of freaky.

My friends are advising me to tell him partly because they are worried that, when I call to say I've had a miscarriage, he will twig it's not the case and know I've had a termination. And that that could lead to a terrible fallout - not only hasten the relationship ending nastily or abruptly, but also make any abuse towards me worse.

He can read me very well - he therefore might guess this is what I've done.

I guess the question is - is it better to tell him what I'm planning/going to do, and risk him going nuts, or to do it anyway and if he finds out later and goes nuts, then so be it.

Which is safest?
Which is most helpful to me as I try to recover emotionally from all this?
Which might I least regret 1, 2, 3 years down the line?

I appreciate there might not be an answer, just wondering if anyone had experience or knowledge of this situation - this is totally uncharted water for me and my friends.

It seems to me your husband is saying I will do this and that, this is how I want things so what if you leave he can say he was honest with you and tried to offer solutions to saving the marriage.

You seem to want to abort the baby because it is his but it is yours too. You can not abort it without telling him, it really isn't fair.

Fab just to be clear - you're saying he has a right to know, and that I should let him know what I'm thinking in order to be fair to him? I'm interested in all opinions.