What Would You Do?

[YallaYalla]

Hi,

Looking for a bit of advice please. I am slowly working out that DH has some major issues with passive aggressive behaviour. We've just come back from a week-long holiday and he is no longer talking to me because of a row we had on the last day. He has gone into emotional shutdown and as usual I am paying the price.

In brief: I wanted to do something (buy a souvenir on our last night) which he didn't want to do; I could tell he wasn't keen and offered to leave him in the bar we were having sundowners in while I nipped up to the shop; he didn't take me up on this offer, and also did not say he didn't want to do it when I asked him in a friendly way about it.

So we leave bar and walk to shop buy souvenir, him seemingly in an ok mood. On leaving shop he gets into a major strop because he was very sweaty and hot from the walk (tropics) and within a space of about 5 minutes shuts down totally.

Doesn't want to do anything, goes mute, won't respond to queries of if he's ok, my offers to go and stand in areas where there is AC, queries about which bar he would like to go to next and where we should have dinner on our last night.

Eventually he says he's had enough and wants to go back to the hotel and do nothing/watch TV. It's 8pm, it's the last night of our holiday and we're both dolled up for a good night out.

I'm pretty pissed off, but use my usual tactics for snapping him out of these moods - cuddling him, ignoring his mood, teasing him gently, trying to take charge in a non-confrontational way. It worked for a bit, and then I got a bit exhausted by the whole effort and said, fine, let's go back to the hotel. We are waiting in a taxi queue and I say I'm just popping into this shop to use the loo.

He claims he thought I said 'see you back at the hotel'. I though I'd made it fairly clear I was just nipping to the loo but it's possible he didn't hear me as we were about 10 metres away from each other. Anyway, point is, I return from the loo and he's vanished.

He KNOWS I have no money in my pocket whatsoever (he always carries the cash on nights out on holiday) and no mobile phone which I've left in the hotel safe. So he's dumped me in the middle of a capital city in Asia. Admittedly, it's a safe city, it's not late, I know the way back to the hotel 20 minutes away, and we're in a really touristy area. But it's the principle of just being dumped like that without even money for a taxi. I'm furious. Walk back to hotel room.

Half an hour later he shows up. I am fuming. Not proud of what happens next but I use the security chain to stop him getting access to the hotel room. I tell him he's not coming in as he dumped me in a foreign city with no resources. He asks again to be let in. I say no and slam the door shut.

Eventually, at 2am, he tries the door again. This time I've softened and feel pretty bad for locking him out of the room (even though HE had his wallet and credit cards and finances mean he could easily booked himself another room in the same hotel for the night). I let him in, he walks in in silence and hasn't spoken to me since.

We flew home in silence and he sat separately to me from the plane. Now we are home and he's still in the silent treatment mode, sleeping on the sofa. Total emotional frigging shutdown.

Now. I KNOW I was unreasonable to prevent him access to the hotel room for a few hours. I haven't apologised yet either (he's stonewalling me and I don't see what value it would have at this time). But, as usual, it's me who looks the nutter.

He could not express feelings on us going to the shop. He 'punishes' me for taking us there by shutting down emotionally, and then abandoning me on the last night of our holiday in a foreign city with no bloody money in my pocket. I shut him out of the hotel room but in no way compromised his safety (for all I know he spent the intervening hours in the hotel lobby bar knocking back single malts). And, as usual, I am sitting here tearing my hair out, trying to find a way to get him to open up and being given the silent treatment.

I've spent some time on the internet this morning looking at PA behaviour. I'm sure he doesn't have the PA personality disorder as generally he is a very good, loving, honest man who holds down a very stressful and highly-paid job and - this issue aside - our marriage is strong and we have a good relationship. But I just can't BEAR this passive aggressive shit.

What am I supposed to do?
Any tips for how I can make myself feel better while his mood subsides?
Any tips for how I can snap him out of it?
Should I apologise for locking him out of the room?

Sorry - this is an essay - just feel like I'm going mad here. Thanks if you got this far.

A psychiatric assessment probably.

I have bumped the narc thread for you to look at...it's long, but will be familiar territory for you I fear.

I was accused of having NPD by my mother and h...funny, as they probably are...and I'm definitely NOT! How do I know I'm not...because the very suggestion horrified me and I scuttled off to the gp's, a narc is completely perfect and would have no need of a professional opinion. Familiar?

Suspect it's thet the narcissist thinks himself to be always in the right and the victim of other people's wrong thinking. Expert at manipulating the truth into his own understanding of reality.

Whereas a plain ordinary abuser/bully does may actually know right from wrong but choose the wrong.

Have a look at some definitions on line. Like this one

sorry, but trip trap. well scripted bollox

which bit?

Even if it were squiddle, it doesn't make any of it any less true as a phenomenon.
Hide thread if you don't want to read it.

YallaYalla, I have read the entire post and feel for you so much.

I left my 'normal, loving' DH after years of silent treatment and emotional bullying and for ages I kept thinking it was me making 'a fuss out of nothing', or looking for problems. I thought if I just 'behaved myself' and stopped being so melodramatic it'd all be ok. Even when he was absolutely vile towards me I hung around. This will sound ridiculous but I even wanted him to hit me so I could declare a 'valid' raeson (to my family/friends) for leaving him. I was so worried about what people would think. I felt such a failure.

You talk a lot about why your DH is behaving like this. If you ever got an answer, would that make things better?

As someone else has already said, no-one wants to leave a marriage, no one does it lightly. It took me yonks. It would be easier to stay I guess. Please don't stay in a marriage because you are worried you will be judged by people.

Wishing you all the very best

Yalla

Please really think about returning home prior to your birth.

I say this because your relationship sounds quite like mine. This started when I was pregnant - something wasn't right but I hoped that it would be better once our lovely child was born.

I was very wrong - it's increased alot. Initially I tried to tackle it and we got caught up in similar rows to yours - ie going nowhere if you want to tackle something that will ultimately make your relationship better. At the same time he was always spoiling for a fight. He misunderstands everything I say and I constantly have to explain to him like he's a toddler. He'll try to wind me up and then accuse me of being mad (and I never once really demonstrated my anger with him). He has threatened me.And yet within a day it's all 'blown over' and I'm getting on with stuff.

I had normalised his behaviour.

I was sooo tired so I changed tack and decided to concentrate on our child as he was getting to the stage where he'd pick up on things. This has further enraged my dh as he feels less control and left out (he does nothing with our ds, he takes love rather than give it) and now I'm in a situation where I have to go right up to his face when I say goodnight to get a response or I make a bit of small talk to fill the awful silence and he just sneers and tries to pick a fight and as I don't want ds caught up in the middle I work very very hard to diffuse it.

It's so much harder trying to deal with a head fuck when you have a child to bring up.

Why go through worse than you are going through now - go home and rebuild your life. I'm planning my future.

YallaYalla, first of all, congratulations on your pregnancy

I think you have had some excellent advice on here and I have thought long and hard about whether I could contribute to any of it, and I hope that I can, although not in a way that may be seen as acceptable (hence the name change).

This thread has really hit home with me. But, bizarrely because I think I understand your DH's position more clearly than your own. This is long and may not be relevant and I apologise, in advance, if it seems self indulgent.

I grew up in abusive circumstances. My mother was a malignant narcissist, and one of her tactics was the withdrawal of attention. She would (literally) not speak to me for days or weeks if I upset her and did not behave in the way that she felt was acceptable. Unfortunately for me, she was never clear about what it was that I should or should not do, so I was always second guessing her and trying to work out where I was going wrong. Not that it mattered, because she would always move the goalpsosts. She was also physically abusive, to the point where she would lose control enough for me to fear that she would actually kill me. This type of atmosphere means that you become hyper-sensitive - your survival depends on being able to read signals.

As, you yourself know, that upbringing has an effect on how you behave as an adult. I was lucky in that I was clever, and we were rich, and her children being successful was important to her (it all reflected on her) so my siblings and I all had a fantastic private education and got into ?good? universities and got away from home. But I was pulled down by what I had been through. Cue breakdowns, medication, bad relationships, violence, alcohol, drugs etc., etc.,

Eventually, (to cut a long story short) I went into intensive therapy. I learnt to understand why I was in self destruct mode.

I get why your DH is acting in this way. It?s been OK up until now, but you are changing the goalposts. You both have had upbringings where you have you learnt the worst ways to communicate. But you want to change that and that is bring out the worst in him. He is terrified.

I understand the duvet hiding. Before therapy, I used to stonewall, to deflect, to undermine. I would choose men that were emotional and open. And then they would finally get fed up of my detached behaviour and it would be awful. I could not understand them - I thought they were mad, just MAD. All the screaming and shouting and trying to get me to ?open up? and be someone I wasn?t. I fucking hated it and them. I would disappear for days. I thought they were insane, and it caused me physical pain to be around them.

It was my problem. But they way they were handling me was making it ten times worse.

The only way that this can work, in my opinion, is if you are prepared to back away. The ultimatum is that he goes into therapy, and you do as well. There?s a reason why you?ve bought into his script. Once you see it, you may decide you?re not interested in him, after all.

He may well be an abusive, controlling dickhead. But life is rarely that simple and he is reacting to circumstances that are outside of his control in the ways he understands. It?s not good, it?s not ideal, but it is understandable ( to me at least). If you think there is a good man there underneath, then it may be worth taking a chance with him. If you go to therapy, you may well decide you don?t need to do that and that?s the right decision for you, especially with a child inside you.

I?m sorry this is so long.

x

That was a wonderful post, tabula, and I'm sorry you felt you had to namechange for it. I think that those of us who have loved Narcissists do understand this (most of us had a Narc parent so, like you, had to learn to undertsand it!) The big - no, humungous! - difference between you, and most of our exes, is that you felt prompted to understand yourself and the path your life had taken. That is rare. I hope you feel justified pride in yourself

You chose to seek therapy - and to stick with it. Could anyone else have 'made' you do it? It's a long, painful process; very few Personality Disorder sufferers would willingly choose that. I doubt whether any Narcissist would undergo de-construction of his fantasy at someone else's request. More, I'm of the opinion that relationships requiring this much work aren't actually worth having. Love isn't supposed to hurt.

Thank you very much for understanding why your partners became increasingly frantic. I was that ranting partner; although I understood why it hurt him, my emotional pain & confusion was unbearable. I've also chosen intensive therapy, so as to change the values I learned from my parents - the ones that led me into those relationships, and then to feel powerless within them.

I'm not a Betjeman fan, but it's no wonder his line is so well known! "They fuck you up, your Mum and Dad; they don't mean to, but they do."

Grace... that line is well known but not written by John Betjeman! Philip Larkin is the man

Oops! Thanks

I think Tabula is so right. What a brave and enlightening post.

I do believe that both parties have a responsibility to address their own individual issues. Both are in the relationship for a reason, and often have much more in common, subconsciously than they realise. This is perhaps why women, and probably men, find themselves in similar relationships, over and over again.

I am having intensive therapy to stop my co dependent tendencies..I now know why I am the way I am...a human rubbish dump..I need to learn to stop that, love myself enough to not allow it to happen to me anymore. Maybe Yalla needs to do this too.

I think Yalla is learning to do this, to stand up for herself and demand she be treated better and that is why she is having such problems with her H now. She is challenging his behaviour and he doesn't like it.

It does seem to be turning into a power struggle now though Yalla, with you waiting for H to realise he is wrong and change his ways. I fear you will be waiting a long time.

which is why that time would be far better spent working on her own issues, self esteem, childhood etc, and stop being concerned about what he is doing.

I have had to accept that me trying to get him to change, or even see that what he was doing was wrong, was the wrong thing to do, and actually gave the game away as regards MY boundaries. I can't change anyone but ME.

Well said Tabula. Yalla I am so sorry that you are in this situation.It sounds so painfully familiar,and you have had excellent advice here,as I did very recently.
I have been following this post and also wondered how I could contribute.
If you look at my threads and posts,you may find similarities in my experiences.
Reading Tabula 's post,I agree with Grace and thisis responses.
I would also add that my experience of engaging in waiting and supporting a N partner was ultimately hopeless,and with hindsight,only prolonged the agony for me,and very likely for him.
I have worked in Mental Health for many years and considered myself enlightened and aware enough not to be at risk of becoming a victim of domestic abuse.
I never imagined myself being drawn into the games and drama that I have recently stepped away from.
Like you,I "woke up" after posting on MN and have experienced the pain of accepting a new reality.
Before I accepted this reality and gave up,my xp and I spent many hours discussing and exploring the dynamics of "our" drama,and his insights into how his ,and my family scripts had set us up to behave and respond in the way that we did.
He was a Family Therapist and Special Needs Teacher.....
We read books about NPD and Controlling behaviour.
He struggled with "anger problems" and "scheme triggers".I felt we had a deep ,mature relationship in which our shared understanding of and careful responses to "triggers" only added to our bond.

Strangely,I was off sick from my job during this time......

We confronted and dealt with many "near misses" in his behaviour..regained control,discussed ,learnt from it ,moved on..
However,I had a line,we had agreed if he lost it big time again,it would be over.
He lost it.
I ended it.
No contact.
I moved on,the fog lifted.I felt I'd had a lucky escape.
5 months of no contact.
He asked me to meet him for lunch and I agreed,feeling safe in my new mindset that I "knew" it was over ,and why.

He was a completely changed man.....
He had embraced New Age Spiritualism,something he had always been hugely sceptical about,but that I had found great comfort in via a dear friend.....( I seriously did not consider that suspicious at the time...of course,it should have been all the warning I needed...)

We met up again and again I was convinced that something had shifted .He said his therapist was amazed at his progress.He no longer considered it "our" problem.No more talk of dynamics.He insisted he realised he had been abusive.
I went to meet his therapist.
He appeared to have begun to tick all the boxes in the Lundy Bancroft book ,where he describes how to tell if an abuser is changing......
His insight was blinding...
He was peaceful and a joy to be with.
My most concerned friend was convinced.

We had an idyllic holiday with my dc's.
I found I was pregnant and he was delighted and bought me a ring.Threw a big party and told everyone how our love ,and the fear of losing it had led him to want to confront his demons and move forward for good...

2 weeks later he was worse than ever before.

I threw him out.

I so wanted the baby to have what my other dc's did not - a Daddy with Mummy - that I chose to believe it was a blip.Understandable in such a big change.
We split up 4 times during my pregnancy,each time worse and more violent.
Looking back,he was far ,far nastier than he had ever been before and many of the typical,classic behaviour traits and even typical phrases started to become constant.
Still I held my faith in the "changed man " version.The one I wanted to believe.

He was there for the baby's birth and for the first week of her life.

Then he lost it in front of the Midwife.
The rest is posted elsewhere.

That "changed man" may have been a person he desired to be.Or possibly just another mirrored reflection of what I am striving to be, myself.Maybe both.

I will never let him near me again.

I wish I had not had him around terrorising me during my pregnancy.
I would never have got away without MN.

xxx

Hello again,

I've been a bit quiet but I needed some time away to do some thinking. There is still a lot more to think about and huge decisions to take which is extremely daunting. I feel exhausted just thinking about making the decisions! Let alone actually living with them and the consequences.

I would just like to thank every single person who has posted on here. It is SO incredibly helpful to have all this insight and help.

Attila, ThisIs, Dittany, Grace, Dignified - your continued support, whoever you are!, has been wonderful.

GiveItAGo - thanks for your post. Yes, I think I have been normalising his behaviour too. Which is why it's such a shock when it all unravels.

Tabula - thanks for your very brave and honest contribution. It is very interesting hearing about how you made dramatic changes in your life because you wanted something better and were prepared to work on it. I totally relate to everything you say about why he acts as he does (after all, what kind of childhood lessons did H learn, as you did?). But as you say, or as I think you are saying, at some stage responsibility has to be taken for actions. And I do now agree that an ultimatum - a major one - will be the only thing that prompts him to action. But I am also starting to realise that I'm not sure that will be enough for me. Why should my H need a therapist not to tell his newly-pregnant wife to fuck off?

PineMartina - thanks for sharing. Your story, if you don't mind me saying, sounds horrific. What a thing you've been through. How awful for it to all fall apart just after the birth of your child. You must be an incredibly, incredibly strong woman. It's useful for me to hear how bad things could get, your story will be a sobering reminder as I move forward. I'm sorry for your situation and wish you the very best in moving to a happier and better place.

As for me, I am currently trying hard to separate a decision about my marriage from a decision about my pregnancy. It's hard as they are intertwined. I have to accept that if I do proceed with the pregnancy, there is a strong possibility I will be going it alone from Day 1, and I'm not sure at this stage I want a baby enough do tackle the whole project alone from the outset.

I would LOVE a child, love a family, but for me it has always been a joint project to be undertaken, not something that is entered into as an uphill struggle. I know a lot of women choose to do it alone (and a lot of women become single mothers against their wishes but have a wonderful time and love it). But I'm not sure whether financially, emotionally and practically speaking I will be in the best place to start being a parent in six months' time, when I am probably going to be recently separated and emotionally shattered.

I have now told 2 other friends, so 3 close and dear friends now know pretty much the whole story. I have asked one good friend to read this thread and see what she thinks about everything. It has been very helpful talking to real life friends, and in some way hopefully will make this problem more 'real' for me.

I am wondering about the pregnancy. Whether - if I go ahead with it or not - it might have been some kind of sign or message to me. Because either way, it prompts a much more drastic and urgent re-think of my marriage.

If I have it, I need to know my marriage is in the best shape possible and I am sure the child will never be exposed to abuse (currently the answer to that is NO). If I don't have it, then what does it say about my marriage if I abort a much-wanted child, conceived in good faith, because of concerns over the future? It really means that I have no marriage, because if it's not good enough for a child, it's not good enough for me.

I went to see my counsellor and she was excellent, although unfortunately won't tell me what to do and just points me in the direction of how to make decisions. Of course that's her job, but it still feels like I get lumped with all the hard work here! And, f+ck, it's hard work.

She comforted me though by letting me know I don't NEED to tell my parents about the relationship or the baby. I don't have a duty to them. They won't be impartial (my father I know will be all 'woe is me my daughter is getting divorced') and of course neither will be best-placed to comment on whether I should continue my pregnancy or not, when it's their first grandchild at stake. And it makes me pretty angry that I can't tell them, or don't want to. This is something I should be able to talk to my parents about. I know they would want me to. But I just don't feel I will have unbiased support - especially from my father.

OK, that was officially a rant!

Just wanted to let everyone know I'm still alive, although in the dark of night I am thinking VERY dark thoughts which is frightening at times. The pain is pretty much unbearable.

But at the moment I'm just pressing on. Day-time is better. Tomorrow, London and good, real-life friends await.

YallaYalla - I've been following your thread but haven't posted until now.

You might feel as though things are practically difficult for you now, but honestly - if you go through with the pregnancy it will only get much much much harder to leave.

I've had childhood issues which, like you, also meant that I put up with alot, thinking it was normal. These things actually came to light before I was together with H (depression etc).
Since having 3 small children together things became almost unbearable. Like you, I was constantly unsure as to whether I had a right to feel upset over H's behaviour. Eventually it go to breaking point and after posting here I had a similar break through moment where I saw what my relationship with H was actually like. During this time I felt absolutely awful. My head was reeling and I had massive anxiety attacks where I felt that I was absolutely stark raving mad and needed admission to a psychiatriac unit. It was a very scary time. I changed my mind hundreds of times a day, but found I that I could pull out the vision of my H threatening my child and that would help me see the truth again.

My H accepted his behaviour for what it was and on my insistence he started weekly psychotherapy. He is now committed to it and is finding it helpful even if it has been very difficult. He had never recognised that his abusive childhood (NPD father, alcoholic mother, bullying stepmother) had affected him so much. It is however a slow process, and I realised that I needed to think about myself. I also started my own therapy. I see now (or am seeing rather), why I am the way I am, and why I react to things the way I do.
However, every week, I spend at least some time (in therapy), trying to work out whether I should really just leave now. It's very hard. My own issues make leaving very difficult. I feel as though I am taking the cowards way out, that it is just another form of procrastination.

During this time, I got pregnant. I knew I couldn't have another child in this situation. I knew how vunerable I would be with a newborn again (as well as 3 under 6). I decided on a termination. This meant I had to go abroad to have it (illegal where I live). All I asked H to do was to make sure I could spend the next day in bed (I flew back that night). He instead got completely drunk after he put the kids to bed and I ended up having to look after all the children the next morning while he slept off his hangover.
After this I was extremely angry but then started feeling sorry for him as I had perhaps not discussed the abortion enough with him before hand (we did discuss it, he did not want another child), this then changed to me feeling selfish after a few days. So you can see, there is a lot of work to be done on both sides still.

This is the best time to leave. The longer you are in this relationship the more and more difficult it will be. Being pregnant and moving is a lot easier than moving when you have a small child to support as well.

Yalla

Just wanted to wish you courage in the decisions you're facing at the moment.

FWIW, I don't think you should feel you need/ought to tell your parents if you do decide to end your pregnancy. It is a very private matter. I am very close to both my parents who were and are brilliant parents to me in every respect. However, when I had a termination a long time ago when I was 22, I didn't tell them as I didn't feel it was appropriate. Especially if your father is a drama queen and will turn this into something that is all about him, I would be very wary. It will be the last thing you need. It is OK to have a boundary with your parents in this way.

I am sure you know this, but just in case not, and I hope you don't mind me mentioning it, if you do decide on a termination, then sooner is much better than later, both in terms of the physical procedure and the emotional effect. It puts you in an awful situation of having to reach a decision very quickly but there is no real way out of it.

Best of luck
Bumps

I, too, sympathise immensely with the pain you're going through, Yalla. "Walking into the light" should be easy, shouldn't it? But it's so hard, especially when you've been accustomed to going around with your eyes half-closed. I gather you'll be on your way to visit your friends around now; I'm very happy to hear that!

Hope they surround you with simple love and common sense Both seem to have been in short supply for you, lately. Have a good time. Wishing you wisdom, and the security it brings.

I have read all of your thread and I think you do come across as a drama queen. We all have our faults, your husband's is that he sulks and does not respond well to emotional outburts. There are some excellent comments from people on this thread but please do not end your marriage and consider termination on the basis of faceless people on the internet. You wanted this baby and at the risk of sounding patronising your hormones are all over the place at the moment which magnifies problems, by your own admission it has been over the last month you have felt worse.

Interesting comment, saturdaygirl.

YallaYalla wrote:

• I said "it's about Respect, I need some respect from you". And he replied: "No, it's not about respect, it's about power."

• I kept on trying to say that our relationship is in grave trouble, but he refused to acknowledge this.

• what kind of man tells his pregnant wife to fuck off on their wedding anniversary ... He's still under the duvet - 4 hours now.

It is usual for a partner, who has no interest in his DP's feelings and views relationships in terms of power, to call her a "drama queen".

Still, I could tell you to fuck off as apparently that's OK with you.

don't agree with you saturdaygirl, but we are all entitled to our opinions, are we not?

IGA - I don't think it is ok to tell people to f.off I just think the op should make her own mind up, I feel that she is depending to much on the advice on this thread. In my opinion I do also feel that she is dramatising this.

I said I think she has had excellent advice, which I think she has had. However, many people in Relationships have had abusive relationships (myself including) and I think when you have been there yourself it is more difficult to be objective as you do not want someone to endure what you yourself have done.

saturdaygirl,

re your comment:-

"We all have our faults, your husband's is that he sulks and does not respond well to emotional outburts".

Well what would you do about him then ?.
Downplaying his problems as a mere "fault" is not helpful; this is a very serious problem that he is not willing to take any responsibility for let alone try to address. Calling her also a "drama queen" is not helpful or constructive either - that is actually the last thing she is.

ATM - I'm not sure that anything "can be done" sadly about his problems. Unfortunately it seems that this is part of his personality and the op will be unable to change this.