'But We Took You to Stately Homes' Part 2...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Thank you everyone who answered. You are right just putting all that down last night made me feel so much better. I often think Im just being unreasonable - but in general I seem to be able to get along with other people pretty well. My dad is just the same too - always knows best and when I stand up to him rants and calls me names. I am very proud that the last time he did I had the courage to stand up to him and say actually no I am not what you are calling me, Im actually a pretty nice person if you knew me, I realise I react badly to you at times but I do not need to be treated like this so please leave my house now.

He phoned to apologise several days later. Miracles do happen if you stand up for yourself.

Pretty you are right its the pattern that goes on that wears you down, closest I can describe is like being stalked, each thing on its own is okay but when you put it all together....

We are strong enough to get this far, we can make it different from her on. Off to read about narcissism in parents - thank you all.

Swift reminder to self about projection:

"Listen closely to the hateful things they say to you about you. You are listening to verbatim descriptions of their character defects."

From my mum's Letter Of Denial:
"You must have misunderstood what I told you. Or have I misunderstood what you believe?"

... No, Mum you haven't misunderstood what I told you or what I believe. But I recognise that you can't face it. So I will give you an unreserved apology for hurting your feelings. That's something you've never done for anyone; you probably don't even know how.

Hi, all, just wanted to write some thoughts down to clear my mind.

The money issue with my parents is still ongoing. I told my sister (all communication is done via younger sister, not ideal but better than direct contact with my parents) that if parents transferred funds to me, I would manage the investment myself. When my dad had wanted to manage it he wanted to put the investment in my name, but he wanted me to tell him all the security details ie password etc and also write a letter of authority to the company where the money would be invested giving him authority to manage the account. I did not feel at all comfortable about doing this which I suppose is why I didn't do it even though I had agreed to accept his offer of money where before I had rejected it. It all felt far too much like 'old times' when my dad would manage money for me and advise on investments and manage investments on my behalf. Giving him my passwords and a letter of authority would have meant taking a huge step back from where I am now. Even though I would have trusted him wrt the actual money (and even if he took it all back it was his in the first place anyway so I could hardly complain) I just did not want to behave as if I trusted him and giving him the password and letter of authority carries in my mind an implicit message of trust.

And I don't trust him. And I am not at all surprised that since I told him that I would manage the investment myself i have heard nothing back, via my sister. No money has been transferred to me. There could of course be a very innocent snd simple explanation for this but somehow i don't think so, not where my dad's involved.

There are so many connotations attached to money with him. He and my sisters have always made me feel I was a greedy, money grabbing, gold digger. When in fact I have always been generous with whatever money I had when still part of their family. I realise now that even my reluctance to accept my parents' offer was at least partly because I felt like it would be a greedy and money grabbing thing to do. But I can see now that that was only because that was how they have always made me feel and see myself as, not because that is actually how I am. All it takes is the odd snidey comment here and the odd catty remark there, over the course of a lifetime, and one is left feeling and believing all the nasty, negative and above all, untrue things one's so called family is saying about you.

And that is exactly how I have been feeling about taking this money. That I am greedy, money grabbing, selfish, all i care about is money. When that is just not true of me. But it certainly is true of my dad and, I would say, increasingly of younger sister who seems to be following in my dad's footsteps.Grace, what you said here:
"Listen closely to the hateful things they say to you about you. You are listening to verbatim descriptions of their character defects." describes it all perfectly. My younger sister even told me a long time ago I was showing off about how much money I had (I had got lucky with various things and made a decent profit) when nothing could be further from the truth, I always kept it all very quiet and it was in fact my parents who were going around showing off to all and sundry about my success (no surprise there) and yet my sister saw it as me who was showing off when in fact the only people I had told were our parents. And the fact that it is the same sister now who I am passing message through about my parents's offer is also a factor in my reluctance to accept the money. All because of her wrong and unjust accusation from many years ago that I was showing off and 'money mad'. It just shows how powerful the words of your 'family' can be when you are so lacking in self confidence and self esteem that you do not have the strength to let the words bounce off you and instead you absorb them, internalise them and ultimately believe the lies you have been told about youself.

I have been reluctant to take the money offered for fear of coming across as greedy and selfish, when in fact, I am owed far more than my parents could ever give me in monetary terms. I have finally cast off their projections and feel a lot more sure of myself, knowing that my parents owe me. I was quite willing to just leave it before if my dad didn't transfer the money offered to me, but I am going to pursue this issue a lot more determinedly now. The money is the only thing of any value I am ever going to get from my parents so I am going to try my best to get it from them. And I am going to spend it on me. Not on the DC's or other 'worthy' things; it's my compensation. It has taken me a long time to come round to this way of thinking, I feel like I have been going round it circles, but this issue is like any other really; I have been dealing with it in a spiral, but where I am now feels 'right'.

Just one more thing to add. I don't trust my dad not to renege on this offer. Not so long ago I remember he reneged on an offer he and my mother had made; I had relied on them and was totally let down and had to make huge changes of plans as a result. He likes to talk 'big' but rarely follows through. But I am going to do whatever I can to make sure he does follow through this time.

Sorry that was a long ramble of no relevance to anybody else, just helps me get things clearer in my mind.

Just wanted to add a few more things. Some of you were talking above about the 'matrix' and stepping out of it. I know exactly what you mean, I think all of us on here are out of the matrix. But I am finding this a bit of a problem/ eg wrt making friends. I find I am too objective in friendships, I step out of them and analyse them to death, instead of just letting things 'be', accepting 'good enough' friends etc. I despair that I will ever find even one friend with whom I feel a real and lasting connection. At least in the film The Matrix there were a group of people (I think) who were together and had all stepped out of the matrix. I sometimes feel it is only on this thread that anybody really understands me, in RL I'm on my own as I have yet to meet anybody in RL who has also stepped out of the matrix. I know other people who grew up in dysfunctional families etc and who have no contact with their parents, but even they still seem as if they are part of the matrix, because they have not necessarily developed any self awareness or insight, despite going as far as cutting ties with parents etc.

I just wondered if anybody else on the thread felt this way?

I also these days increasingly feel about pretty much everything that needs doing, that it's not worth the bother, there's no point, and it's just not important. I seem to feel this way about everything from the smallest thing eg tidying up, sorting out paperwork etc to bigger things like the DC's education. Eg. I think that I should be doing more with them outside school wrt homework etc, but then I think, does it really matter? If they do well or not so well at school, does it really matter? Will doing well and eventually perhaps getting a good job and making money make them happy? And I know the answer to all that is no. It doesn't matter how well or not they do at school, what job they have etc etc. None of that will ever make them happy. Like my happiness, their happiness must come from within, from a healthy sense of self confidence, self esteem, from knowing they are and have always been loved by me and DH. I just feel none of the 'trivia' or detail of life matter. The only thing of importance is being able to be who you truly are and loving yourself, knowing yourself and accepting yourself. Nothing else matters, imvho. And the trouble is this attitude is spilling over into every area of my life and I feel like I just don't care about anything anymore. I used to be quite careful with money before, now I don't seem to care; DH is always thinking about saving for tomorrow and making sure we put enough away for when we retire but I just don't care. I was not like this before. I was always so cautious and careful and hated wasteful spending etc.

It's not just wrt money, it's everything. Why bother keeping the house tidy, putting things away? Do these things really matter in the grand scheme of things? I used to think I need to find myself a decent job once both DC's are at school but now I just want to enjoy myself, enjoy the little bit of freedom I will have between 9am and 3pm and be frivolous and extravagent and indulgent. But this was never me before. I would rarely if ever treat myself, always feel guilty if I didn't work hard and all hours, felt everything had to be earned including treats and nice things. Now I just leave all the things I don't like doing or I find boring and only do things I do like! I'm behaving like an irresponsible teenager. Sometimes I manage to force myself to get a few essential things done (like food shopping) but other than that, everything else I just leave to another day, a day which never comes!

Is this just me? Is it connected somehow with all my 'stuff' or is it a mid life crisis? (will be 40 soon), what is it? If anybody has any wise words I would be greatly appreciative.

Were you ever an irresponsible teenager ET?

Hi pretty, no, not really. Was always sensible, worked hard at school, never got into trouble etc. Do you think I am going through my teenage phase now? I always feel I never really got to go through a 'proper' teenage phase, I never had the safety in which to be a stroppy, mad, wild, questioning teenager, I think I was too busy just trying to survive and cope with all the abuse/neglect and dysfunction going on at home.

I was interested because I had a feeling that you would say that...and I no longer want to indulge in the defining behaviour that separates abuse from emotional health.

I was not an irresponsible teenager...I think I was too busy trying to be "good enough".

My golden child sister however, was the punk to end all punks, ran off on tour with The Clash, lived in squalid squats in dodgy areas of London, caught every STI going, and begged for money on station approaches, as well as stealing gas and electricity.....and that's just the stuff we know about!

Meanwhile, I was kind of hoping that doing well at school, helping around the house and looking after baby sister would count for something......silly me.

I never had a teenage phase.

Anyone else?

It always really strikes me, the absense of my teenage phase, when I talk to DH and he mentions things he did/thought when he was a teenager. He did have a teenage phase, and a normal/typical sounding one as well. I am having mine, 25 years too late. Does better late than never apply in this case?

I do think this is a 'late' teenage phase as opposed to a mid life crisis. I think I've been through a few teenage phases recently, never realised it though.

A teenage phase is where children find out who they are, what they like and what they don't like....they push against boundaries to find out where their boundaries are.

We have fuzzy boundaries because of what has happened to us.

So in a sense I suppose it could be a kind of teenagerhood.

I don't know....just trying to assimilate all that I have learned recently. But if this is right,then it's a very good thing!

I feel as if I am finding out who I am, what I like and don't like. I seem to suddenly be passionate about something, be it a certain type of music, art, whatever, and am really 'into' it for a while, and then I move onto something else. I seem to be discovering the world and myself in a way I have never done before, and it sounds very much like the sort of thing DH did during his actual teenage years.

I'm glad you think this phase is a good thing, I do too! It's fun! Although at times it has also felt like a mid life crisis as well . It's very noticeable when am in one of these phases, as I said, have been through a few now so am beginning to recognise what it is when it happens.

exotic just wondering (with a wry smile) how your recent decision wrt the money is going to impact on your sisters'. They have called you the greedy one after all and Im wondering wether their involvement in the whole process is indicative of their being anxious for you to take the money. After all where would that leave them if you hadn't. Looking like they are the greedy ones perhaps!? So in some ways Im guessing it was in their interests for you to say yes to the money. So I bet this decision of yours to ask for the money without your fathers input has really set the cat among the pigeons because you are 'risking' losing the money (although I know you said you will fight for it) in order to stick to our principles.

rhonda hello and welcome to the thread I really hope you get as much out of it as I have. It has really helped put me back in touch with feelings about my childhood. Feelings I had a right to feel and express and yet could never do so in RL or within my family for fear of being rejected, not validated or simply not believed.

grace wrt your recent post. Do you think you had a break down because of the guilt of detaching from your mother? You may have felt subconciously very distressed and guilty at going off and leading your own life?
I know this is what has happened to me many times over.
After all this is my script...and part of it read that I must never leave 'her', my mother (despite her appaling treatment of me). She had made me responsible for her.
The first time I ever left home (so first departure from script). I fought my mother tooth and nail to become a nurse. It signalled escape for me. Nursing meant pay,student digs= escape= freedom.
I had not prepared myself for the overwhelming guilt at leaving her. At the time I think I only felt the guilt as an overwhelmingly (paralysing) fear and anxiety which I began to numb out with alchahol.
I ended up having panic attacks and so.... back home.
Sometimes its not the actual fact you've left the script that causes the anguish it's the subconcious programming about the consequences.

Exotic I too am yet to meet anyone else in RL that has stepped out of 'the Matrix'. In fact I do not know anyone who does not have a close relationship with their families. After reading about Narcisstic Mothers on the link Grace provided, my DH said to me that he thinks that my mother has got it down to a fine art, making it look to others as if she's the caring, supportive, loving mother.
I even find it hard to explain to others and get my point across as to what she is really like as it possibly seems to others like I'm just being petty. Does that make any sense?

prettylegs I'm still constantly told what a horrid teenager I was and how I was a 'filthy bitch' - this refers to the fact that she thinks I had an untidy bedroom but in truth I wouldn't have dared leave my bedroom in a mess but maybe not quite up to her OCD perfectionist tendancies. All I remember as a teenager is being shouted and screamed at and if I did or said something that my mother didn't like she would punch me, only on my arm but I don't think she was prepared for the day I stood up for myself and punched her back. This is how it carried on, she would punch me and I would do it right back. Funny how she only ever did this when my step-dad wasn't in the house. Not because I think she thought he would protect me (he once threw me across my bedroom and everytime I tried to get up he slapped me back down) but if there were no witnesses then she could put her own spin on the truth of what really occurred.

As perfect as I was,as a teenager, it was never good enough.

It was always "so unfair" for golden child sister, that everything I did was to be in support of her.

We were in a band, and I was never allowed to sing lead.

When I formed my own band, I was physically thrown out of the house, in my nighty, very late in the evening, slapped and told that my disloyalty to my sister was disgusting. This is as teenagers! Nothing particularly serious musically. I stayed with friends until the inevitable Kangaroo Court was set up, enabled by someone who volunteered for the samaritans. Odd because he made sure everyone knew it! Thinking now, that's not right is it? I wonder.........? I've never thought about that until I just typed it.

As we both went on to be professional singers, I would be horrified when collaugues would ask why I bother with her as I was so much better. The guilt was, and still is massive.

Mother told us what songs should be in our repertoire. Not appropriate for the venues we were in, but she knew best, and would sit in the audience reading, then at the end of the night, slag everything off about our performance.

I did go out on my own eventually. I started to choose my own songs, and I stopped her from coming out with me as she ALWAYS made me late. Something I have a REAL problem with.

That was the real me, on that stage, I used to use the lyrics of the songs to tell the world how it was for me. I think that's what made it good, because I really truly felt what I was singing.

This weekend I got in touch with some friends from my university days. We met up yesterday. My frind told me something I'd forgotten, or which has become so magled by history re writes that I don't know anymore.

My mother maintains that I forced her to buy a house next door but four to me (because I am she rah, and can MAKE people do things!) My friend reminded me that my mother came into my home and announced to whoever was there that she'd put a deposit on the house, and that was a fait accomplis....no one knew she was going to do it. That is why my friend remembered....because it was such an odd thing for someone to do.

prettylegs so singing and writing songs was your escapism into the 'real you'. I used to and still do sometimes daydream that I had a totally different life where I was famous and popular. In the daydream I still had a rough childhood but my parents were trying to put that right and make up for it.

Was it just you your mother used to criticise or both you and your sister?

mampam;exotic - that makes perfect sense to me...that is utterly like my experience.No one in RL I have met has ever seemed similar --except xp ,SHIT.
My mother is the sweetest,kindest ,most harmless and helpful little woman anyone could wish to meet...
But I TOO AM SHE-RAH - PMSL PL

And my family have a whole community convinced of that....
ooh the power...

Yes,I was the most difficult teenager possible to imagine....my father has always used that as justification for having to bash me up an a regular basis - that and the fact I "dressed like a whore"......well my sensible reaction was to behave like one for many years....grateful for the scraps of attention and pretend love I got in return...and I keep thinking I'm sorted and over it...then I "wake up" again and have to re-invent my life all over again.
Like I'm going to have to now..

Matrix Through The Bladerunner Looking Glass

mampam ; You wrote

I even find it hard to explain to others and get my point across as to what she is really like as it possibly seems to others like I'm just being petty. Does that make any sense?

This makes perfect sense to me. I am a teensy bit better now at pinpointing /verbalising what it is she does that's '..so bad'. But it has taken me years and years of verbally assaulting dh with this stuff.
I kept regurgitating it over and over again to him, maybe I partially couldnt believe that he was telling the truth when he would say 'yes, that was dreadful'. I couldnt believe anyone would or could validate me.
I have started doing some online counselling. Today I was trying to write about an incident with my mum and how it affected me. I am struggling. I keep re-wording things and deleting. I still think I sound petty.
That said writing again in this way is helping because I am once again re-attaching my anger where it belongs.
Thats the downside in some ways (although for me the benefits far outweigh the negatives) to going NC. I forget sometimes just how bad it was.

PM I'm glad I made you laugh!!!! It always astonishes me, the things they believe I can do. My playground friend spotted it first last year, (Only last year!)

Yes my h is probably the only person who has looked outside his family script....and how he has sprung back to it is the thing that has thrown me the most!

MP: I think it was both of us, I seem to recall my sister getting p'd off with it too. She has had a period of some years where she had no contact with our mother, and yet, we've never spoken about that. Odd, except given where we are, not remotely odd.

I wish I bloody well was She Rah!

When I first went NC with my family , it was after my younger sister asking me to stick up for HER against Mommie Dearest.

That once again turned into one of her kangaroo courts, a favourite with narcicists I have read somewhere. (one of what feels like billions of websites!)

Message withdrawn

my m does that freaky poking thing and still keeps buying me knickers (always way too big,and usually nylon..) and sanitary towels and tampons (big big ones) and still arrives with weird,awful items of clothing - usually says she bought for self but didnt fit - too big...yes to locks on doors ,too and entering bathroom and using loo when Iam in there already...going into my bedroom and opening drawers,rifling through - last week,when visiting whilst I'm in bed recovering from CSection.. WTF is it about

How lovely for you to be doing the teenage stuff now,and lovely to have DH's support .
Enjoy!

smithfield I hadn't thought of the point you have mentioned. I think my sisters don't see themselves as greedy, (because my parents never told them they were); I am sure they think they deserve the money because they love our parents and remain loyal to them whereas I have cut them out of my life. They won't understand the concept of the money being the compensation that my parents owe me because they don't think my parents owe me anything. In fact they think I owe our parents because they looked after me so well and "I got everything handed to me on a plate", in the words of middle sister. They will never understand that I received nothing from our parents, not a single thing because to the outside world, it looks like I was given everything, materially that is. And my sisters cannot even begin to understand the idea that my experience with our parents was, from day 1, so very, very, very, different from theirs.

I have had no response at all from younger sister since i told her that I would take the money and manage it myself. And I am starting to get really angry about it all. Granted there has been a lot of toing and froing on my part and I have changed my mind a number of times about whether I want the money and then about who should manage it. But I have made it clear now that I will take the money and that I will manage it. I would like a response either way, I don't think that's unreasonable. If my parents have changed their minds (not surprising now that they must realise they will get absolutely nothing from me once they have handed over the money) then they should tell me. I'm sure they are quite surprised that I have now accepted their offer and that I am not budging on the no contact situation. I am sure that they thought I would relent once I had accepted their offer. The offer of money is the only leverage (in their eyes) they have over me. Once they have handed it over and got nothing back from me, they have no other means of getting me back into the family drama.

This whole episode has triggered a lot of issues for me and helped me resolve some more of my past; I have uncovered and exposed yet more of the lies they told me about myself. I don't care if they still believe their own lies, but at least I no longer see myself the way they see me. I was a bit ashamed and reluctant to pursue the money before because it made me feel as if I was being money grabbing and grasping. But taking the money is a drop in the ocean compared to what I am actually owed by my parents and what I will never get from them, and that is hardly being greedy and grasping. Rather than give me money, I would much rather, from day 1, have had their unstinting, endless and unconditional love. But that is something they will never understand.

Thanks, all, for your support and for your interesting posts about teenage years. You've provoked some thought about my own rebellions, how the parents reacted, and what I took away from it. I stopped - very suddenly! - Trying To Be Good at the age of 16. It was pretty much all rebellion, though; there was very little "self-actualisation" going on. I believe I have the same problem today. My self-neglect and so forth are passive-aggressive in nature. I'm doing a fine job of proving to myself that the world doesn't blow up if my house is dirty & the bills unpaid: I don't underestimate the value of that. I'm still "stuck" though. I'm going to have to find a way of recognising my own needs, dreams & preferences IN DETAIL - and then start practising!

Self-love. It's so damn difficult, isn't it?!

Smithfield, my breakdowns were completely parent-related but in a more roundabout way than yours. My NPD boss was so like my father (though better-looking) - I even heard myself yelling "You can't bully me, Peter, I was reared by an expert!" When I got home, H abused me in ways I didn't know how to recognise - I'm still learning just how much emotional abuse there was from him. My defence system, which was naturally based on my parents' relationship, gave out. Basically, being me had let me down. My urge to seek counselling, in order to find out what 'being me' meant & how to change it, was overwhelming.

So yes: it was all about my need to opt out of the family script, and fear of doing so. Damned if I did, damned if I didn't. I think it helped that Dad died that year, though my attention has only recently turned to Mum. I'm very much alone with my script rewrite on this one, as she plays nice where Dad was openly villainous. There are times I wish I could dicuss all this with him - during one of his 'moments of clarity'.

Aha. I knew Peter was bullying me because he was aggressive like Dad. I didn't recognise Jon's abuse because it was covert, like Mum's. Stately Homes does it again!

I got myself a full set of parents there. No wonder I broke down ...

When I said was on my own with this, it wasn't entirely true. My friend S is beautifully perceptive. I think my sibs are beginning to notice some cracks in Mum's 'stage makeup' too - I have hopes!

Really interesting stuff about teenage behaviour here. Im just catching up during a break at work - I was a great teenager, I didnt go out, I didnt drink, I didnt date, I did well at school, ET sounds like you....

I then spent a year making up for the whole thing at about 21, I think I had been told I wasnt good enough so often my thoughts (subconcious but looking back this was my rationale) were that, Im getting slammed for everything anyway, might as well have the fun along with it.

Everyone thinks they are lovely people too. If it wasnt for dh having seen some behaviours oer the years that have led him to realise whats going on, I would truly think I had a severe mental health problem - as my mother told everyone when I left home....

Was there anyone else who wasnt trusted with a house key while working and had to sit on the step and wait for a parent to get home if they were sent home early from work?

Also recognise the earlier stuff about making up what went on and how I must have it wrong thats not what they remember.

Was about to type, I dont think I am being much help to anyone else on this thread yet, sorry - I think this might be the one place I dont need to be helping everyone else all the time?

You help by posting you own thoughts. It works both ways, you know!

Thanks Grace!