'But We Took You to Stately Homes' Part 2...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Yes, if you post your stuff, it often gets recognised as familiar by others....so that is always helpful.

diving I too wish for the day I am informed of my mother's death. It will be such a relief.

The trashing or invading is so familiar too. Always getting over involved in a really embarrassing way.
The thing with the house buying....I KNEW I hadn't MADE anyone move anywhere. Sorry to repeat but it's a recent revelation.

Oh God! Inviting herself to private parties/ weddings that I was being paid to sing at. And then reading, whilst just sitting there. I can feel the excrutiating embarrassment now!

Inviting ALL her work colleagues to my boyfrinds parents new year party, and then have one of them kick the hosts car, in front of other guests because it was a mercedes. They didn't know the hosts at all. She just kind of hi jacked it.

Inviting complete strangers to my first wedding, and then asking for the money back that she had GIVEN me towards the cost of the catering.

"you're not going looking like THAT are you?" on our way to a family party.

prettylegs your mother sounds consumed by jealousy.
When asked what she thought of dh when meeting him for the first time;

Mum:'I think you go well together...'
Me: 'really?' (excited inner woop at approval)
Mum: 'Yes, neither of you cares what you look like'

It was always that way, the sting at the end of the tail. Scorponious bitch

grace I relate to what you say. Once I'd left home wherever I went my parents found me, either themselves or in some other sinister form.
The 'third' time (Im persistent) I left home I went to live with my mum in the form of my hideous ex.

I was never trusted either. I was treated as if I was irresponsible and dishonest when I had never done anything to deserve it. It was all my dad's projections, he couldn't see the real me at all, he just saw me as a blank screen and projected all his own negative traits onto me and then genuinely thought I was that person and then treated me accordingly. It was madness when I now look back, he was/is mad. The first time I saw it really clearly was when he accused me of hacking into his computer a few years ago. Middle sister totally believed him and thought I had done it!

They are loons like you all say. Never in a million years would I have the time, nor the energy nor the inclination, nor the ability or knowhow to hack into my dad's computer. But he clearly believed I could and would do such a thing and middle sister believed it too.

Like some of you have said, I did end up sometimes acting selfishly and irresponsibly, because that's how they saw me, I may as well live up to their expectations. But it wasn't the real me at all, not by a long, long, long way.

I have had it with all of them. It was DS's birthday recently and whilst I didn't expect anything from my parents, I thought my sisters might at least send him a card. But no, nothing. I am clearly the out and out baddie and they are sending me a clear message that they want nothing to do with me. At least this time I was not sucked in by their texts and emails which were falsely friendly and read like nothing's up.

I am going to pursue the money either via my sister or direct with my dad by letter. Will leave it for a bit and think about what to do. But he has proved once again what a toerag he is. Why I thought his offer might be genuine I don't know. Hope triumphed over reality I suppose. Not any more. I can't wait for my parents to die either.

Just had a memory re-surface as a result of that post to you Grace. When was about to move out, my mother would take to her bed. Every time she would do this. I used feel so hurt. Why couldnt she help me pack my things, support me in some way.
No, she just wallowed in self pity and dramatised fake helplessness in order to guilt me into not having a life away from her.

exotic my parents never trusted me either.
Yet I was such a loyal soul.
I did begin to lie to them though, a lot in the end. Partially I did this because I was not allowed any freedom. At all. Whatsoever.
So I began to lie to get out of the house, and gain some freedom away from them.
Partially though I thought.. well if they dont trust me anyway I might as well be what they think I am.
I had no teenage years to speak of. I did make up for it somewhat in my twenties.
I was under lock and key until then.
I was not allowed a front door key either, until I was 18. My dad and I had a huge fight over it and he finally caved in out of guilt. Guilt at having put his hand around my throat that night maybe? Probably.

This thread has been wonderful, I just wish I knew such self aware people in RL.

My grandmother is being quite nice and normal recently. Is it hoovering? Is it because she knows that I have much more of the truth? Why do I feel a little bit guilty, like I should give her a second chance?

I do sense that our conversations, whilst very sporadic, are of an entierly different tone. She senses that I have changed and that I can no longer be bullied - I have seen through her bullshit. However there is a big part of me that does not trust her, that somehow she is setting me up for a big downfall when she reverts right back to her damaged self. This niceness sets me on edge and makes me doubt my experiences - the old doubtful voices pop up 'it wasn't that bad', 'she isn't all that bad, you are just sensitive'. However I know that this is those internalised voices of my childhood and that my mistrust of her is for a very good reason.

I know that the only reason I don't cut her out is because of FOG however I have done enough work on myself and come far enough to be able to keep her at a long arm's distance.Even calling her Grandma rather than mum is a big step.

I am supposed to be going to a wedding soon at which they will be. I have mixed feelings - I want to stand tall and proud and look my SGF in the eye. I have come a long way in the last year. However will it potentially be a set back? Will I crumble when I see him? I know some think no contact should be no contact, but I don't want to miss my cousin's wedding and the chance of seeing other relatives

My feeling is that it will be a great achievement for you, Rose and, if you want to do it, then do! For emotional insurance, please do remember you can change your mind at any time - you can even leave halfway through if you like; you're an independent woman now

It'd be helpful, no doubt, if you can take a few steps to make sure you're around people you enjoy: ask them to sit you with cousins & friends rather than your GM, for example.

ps: Don't worry about how you feel while she's hoovering. Your recovery lies not in controlling your feelings (which can't be "wrong", they're feelings), so much as choosing your reaction to them. I know this is a fine and tricky point but I think you're familiar with its subtleties. Just wanted to back you up a little ... you know what's happening here; your knowledge empowers you

Sorry to go on about this issue endlessly. But have nobody else to talk to. Had a response via my sister from my parents. They want to know all details about where I am planning on investing the money, what the charges are etc. Or I can do as they want and invest the money where they suggested with them having control and access to the account. Or they will just invest it themselves and give me the money later when I need it (this is based on when I thought I would use the money for DC's school fees in years to come). Understandably my sister does not want to keep passing on messages between us so wants me to contact my dad direct via phone or email.

I have no idea what to do. Have just cried with the frustration of it all. I suppose I had visions of my dad just transferring the money into my account, no questions asked. Which was a ridiculous fantasy I suppose.

I can't stand the fact that my dad obviously does not trust me at all with the money ie I will put it somewhere with high charges and low returns etc.

I really cannot stand the idea of contacting my dad using any method even email. And I no longer want to use the money on school fees but on myself, or at least some of it. Maybe I should just write to my dad and tell him this but then he probably won't give me a penny. Arrrggghhh! I was much happier before he dangled this money in front of me. Somebody on here ages ago told me I shouldn't touch the money with a bargepole and I think they were right (sorry was a year ago can't remember who said it) as was my initial instintive, gut reaction which was to say no to the money. But over time my rational logical side took over and of course from a rational pov it makes sense to take the money. But it was never going to be no strings attached like my sister tried to persuade me. And in my heart I knew that but I ignored the voice telling me that.

Grace your words have helped hugely. It is so liberating to know my feelings aren't wrong. I just go with them and process them and try not to react in a way that is harmful to myself

Maybe this is her 'nice side' or she is trying to make amends because she has not seen us for nearly a year (I still send her photos of the kids). However the difference is I am not hoping for such and I do not rely on it - I am not enmeshed in what can be a cycle of abuse and hoovering. In short I am really beginning to not give a s**t.

The fact that she has a nice side does not negate all the terrible things she has done or repair a damaged relationship overnight. Whether it is hoovering or genuine is not of importance because I have moved on and I am getting on with my life.

Do you think it would be okay to mail my cousin and ask her not to sit me with them? Is this selfish and will it cause more stress to the bride (I know from experience that seating plans can be a nightmare)?

Indeed I am an independent woman and it feels great! We have booked into a really nice hotel on our own. Even if the wedding is stressful we can escape whenever we like. My GM had tried to book us into the same place as them! She is in complete denial if she thinks I am going to sit and have my coffee in the morning looking at my SGF! How liberating to phone her and state that we would make our own plans, I would never have done that before

sorry you are having this stress vanillabeanfrosting

My gut reaction (and please feel free to challenge me) is a worry that he is trying to manipulate you again. It feels dangerously like he has some control again and you risk being set back in your recovery.

There is no right and wrong. I think you are absolutely entitled to the money and it could be of great use to you. However like typical bloody narcissists there are never no strings attached with these things

I think if you take the money it has to be in a way which means he can't control you via it. So them having access to the account worries me. Likewise them investing it and keeping it until they decide you need it is another method of control.

Do you feel strong enough to be able to contact him without it setting you back? State that you would just like him to transfer the money and trust you (as you are a fully grown adult and all) to use it as fit.

There is part of me that thinks don't touch it if they are controlling it in this fashion. If I wanted to give an estranged child some money to try and make amends I would just transfer it with no strings attached. But then these people don't think in that way do they?

Sorry this has not been of much help.

I am afraid there is

I do agree with Rose, vanillabeanfrosting. The real issue is not whether he trusts you - or his opinion of your financial management skills - it's control.

If you allow yourself to respond to his implied criticism - rather than his control tactics - he's winning. Do you see that?

There's an ancient quote (which I've forgotten, dammit!) that says a gift with conditions is not a gift. It's a purchase. He's trying to buy back your subordination. It's up to you whether you decide to take his price, iyswim.

Were I in your position, I think I'd reply along the lines that I very much appreciate the gift but had expected the money would be mine to use as I saw fit. That I consider it inappropriate for others to have control over funds that are in my name. That I respect his investment skills, but feel his proposal in this case crosses the boundaries of professionalism. I would both write this and say it by phone.

I'm NOT in your position, though! Do as you see fit, please, but don't get sucked back into the weird, money-fuelled vortex your family chooses to live in.

A poisoned chalice can only hurt you if you drink from it! I'm suggesting you ask, one last time, for a clean drink. If they can't/won't do it, your only problem is whether you consider his deal worth the price.

... If they refuse, it may mean goodbye to your spending spree but could you ask them to put it trust for your DCs instead, for release at age 21, sort of thing?

Thank you, Rose
As I recall, the seating plan stress comes from trying to remember which guests hate each other, have had/ are having affairs, have bees in their bonnets about status and so forth. I'd have been grateful if everybody had mailed me their preferences!!

smithfield I hope you've got further with what you were writing for your online counselling. How does counselling online work? It's definitely something I would consider looking into for myself as I realise that I really need to have more counselling sessions so can you point me in the right direction please?
With regards to having to explain myself about my mother and wondering if people in RL actually believe me, I found myself in this position last night.
I was on the phone to my boss and she had bumped into my mother in a supermarket who was quick to tell her that I won't answer any of her phonecalls or texts and that I haven't even bothered to ask her to have the DC's whilst I'm in hospital.

So I found myself doing the usual routine of having to explain myself to someone. I'm 30 years old and I shouldn't have to justify my actions to people.(And god only knows who else she has told the sob story to?).

I told my boss straight....It's rubbish that I won't answer her calls or texts but I refuse to be bullied into answering when I'm busy by her continuously calling the house phone then my mobile one after another for over 2 hours, plus I will not answer the phone to her after 8pm because she is usually pissed and I am not prepared to sit listening to her whittle on and on about all her problems for hours on end.

I do not need my mother to look after my DC's whilst I am in hospital. She has harped on and on and on to me that she will be working all the week I am due to go in as her boss is away so how would she be able to look after DC's and get them to and from school when she is at work? Plus DC's don't particularly want to stay with her as she goes on and on at them all the time. I am having an Elective CS. I know what day it's on and the time, DH is self employed so he can take time off or fit in work around all of this to be there for the kids. I have told my mother this numerous times but she refuses to accept it because she has had no part in the organisation of it all. She just tries to find alternatives our plans that will complicate matters.

Sorry smithfield that was a bit of a rant, it's true when people say on this thread that we only have each other who understand. It does feel good to tell all this to people who aren't just going to stare blankly at you.

mampam rant away. Your pg and you need to let it out.
Its doubly bad when they are able to needle us through some sucker third party channel isnt it? Arrrrgh I feel your pain!
Give yourself permission to not explain. Or I can give it to you! Dont explain!.. Roll your eyes smile sweetly and say 'Oh what is she like'... anyway (quickly change subject).
I know easier said isnt it...
I am learning (slowly) that the best way to get at my brother is by ignoring him.. I put this vacant look on my face when he bangs on about how old I am or such like. Inside I still burn with anger and want to slap his chops .
Ive realised now there is nothing he loves more than seeing my reaction to what are ultimately 'his' issues.
Online counselling- found a lady that does it and I can email you details if you like? You decide how much or little you do. I have only just started...it is ok maybe a little slower than face to face (if that makes sense) to get to the issues.
You can use MN though as well with her (I just do email).
Hang in their Mampam x

exotic Really wanted to respond to your post, not sure I can add much more though, but your father is certainly showing his true colours isnt he.
The 'tears of frustration' are probably less to do with the money and more about the fact deep down there was a stirring of hope, perhaps even subconciously for you. This may have felt like a promise of some change in him (even just a hint of one), a way of making amends to you.
It is not though. As others have written tis all about power and control . Hurts like F* everytime you realise they aint never gonna change. Want to write some more but have to pick up ds. (((((exotic))))

Thank you Rose, Grace and Smithfield. You are all right. It is totally about power and control. I think I knew this deep down but ignored it.

Smithfield, you said,"This may have felt like a promise of some change in him (even just a hint of one), a way of making amends to you" and you are so right. Deep down inside I so desperately wanted to believe my dad was willing to just transfer the money to me, no strings and no questions, as a way of saying sorry. But if he really wanted to do that he could have just sent me a cheque in the post or just transferred the money into my account. He could have just done it. Why offer to do it? That always bothered me about it all from the beginning.

Rose, you are also right. Every suggestion my parents have made involve a method of control, access to the account in my name or making me contact them again in years to come to ask for the money for the school fees.

I have been thinking it's not fair because my sister has been given the money. But she has had to pay a price for it, I just couldn't see it before. She is now 'tied in' to my dad, he can treat her as he wishes and she has to accept it because of the money. He has secured her loyalty and also his narcissistic 'supply' by giving her the money. I just couldn't see that before.

Grace, I totally see what you're saying. It is definately about control and I know what you mean about my dad's 'price'. Or what he thinks 'my' price is. Because he has upped his offer considerably since his last offer. High enough to arouse my interest. And I did take the bait, after first saying no, I ended up accepting the offer. But the terms are not acceptable and so I am going to reject the offer after all.

I think I will send one last message via my sister along the lines you have suggested Grace. I don't expect anything to change wrt his offer but I think my dad will realise that his tactics haven't worked. He won't be able to 'buy' me back into the drama.

Thank you all so much for your help and advice, you have given me clarity about this situation that I just didn't have before.

And Rose, I was thinking too about what I would do if I had a child and we were in this position. I would just send the child a cheque. Especially if had given one child some money, I would feel very bad about not giving the second child anything. I wouldn't make her an offer and then use it to try and negotiate her return to the family. Everything my dad has suggested so far has involved him wanting me to contact him in some way, either phone or email, to 'discuss' the money and how to invest it etc. He seems desperate for me to contact him and maybe thought the 'lure' of the money would be enough for me to call/email him. He was never going to just transfer the money without getting something from me. But NOTHING on this earth would make me contact him, even by email, the thought of it just repulses me, not even if he offered me a million pounds. And he is offering me far less than that right now.

Right, my mind is made up and in my heart I know this is the right thing to do. Say no to the money and all his forms of control. Give him my account details and tell him if he wants to give me any money in the future he can simply transfer it into my account without any need to contact me or vice versa. End of story.

I don't want you to miss out on what you deserve vanilla, although I know it could never make up for your childhood and the abuse they inflicted on you. I just worried because I can never trust narcissists and your parents sound like classic ones.

Your line about them 'buying you back into the drama' really struck me. I am beginning to think that my GM latest niceness is all about getting me back into the drama. My adoptive parents don't use money as they are far too tight (not suggesting your parents are generous in any way, just that all narcissists have different bargaining tools or modes of manipulation - I think money is a classic one) but they will use other bargaining tools. I certainly can't believe that she has suddenly changed her spots and wants to make amends

It is terrible that this kind of abuse actually makes you quite an untrusting person in many ways.

Hi everyone - got this from the DONM website and felt it should be shared. It rung so true with me

From time to time around here, you?ll hear people mention FLEAS. If you?ve never heard of them, here we go?

Let?s say you were raised by deaf parents. They had no problem when things crashed on the floor, making a horrible sound. They let you slam the door and they let the dog bark at night and had no problem with nails on a chalkboard. You could play your clarinet at all hours, so 11:00 PM was a fine time to practice.

And let?s say you turned 18 and went off to college and got a hearing roommate. She complained when you slammed your dresser drawers early in the morning when heading off to class as she slept in. The 11:00 clarinet didn?t go over so big, either. Sometimes you made a lot of noise and didn?t realize it.

Well, if someone paid close attention, they might think you were hard of hearing, wouldn?t they? I mean, you just didn?t seem to be aware of how much annoying noise you were causing. But you COULD hear ? you were just raised in an environment that was shaped by deaf people, and that affected your behavior.

Well, FLEAS are a little like that. When you?re raised by a narcissist, you have to do things their way. There are house rules. No questioning. No expressing your needs. Accept the blame. Be a doormat. Criticism isn?t allowed. You come last, if at all. Play along. Put on the show they want. Be wrong. Suck up. Don?t be yourself. You?re a nobody.

All those ?rules? hurt. And most importantly, like a glove or a shoe, these rules form the shape of the reason they exist. They take the shape of narcissism. In the home of a person with another PD ? let?s say Obsessive-Compulsive PD, the shape would be very different. Your mother would be the type who couldn?t rest unless she did everything herself, even things you should have been allowed to do, like making your bed at 12. You?d make it, and she?d come in and tear it apart, making it all over again, because it just wasn?t good enough until SHE had done it. You?d put your stuffed animals away, but she?d have to come in and line them all up according to their size. You put them on the shelf the wrong way, and they needed fixing, so she couldn?t rest until that happened.

Now, you may not have NPD. Some children of narcissists do, and some don?t. Let?s say you don?t. But you were raised by someone with it. So you have some issues that can take the shape of NPD ? like a shadow or a snow angel, or even an echo. You'll have some issues in the same sorts of areas that narcissism occupies, because you picked these fleas up FROM a narcissist.

Let's take just one possible example to illustrate...

Because of growing up with a narcissist, you?re used to being criticized to death, and for the tiniest thing, so when you graduate from your university and get a job, it may hurt to hear negative feedback about your work. Because you?ve never experienced healthy, well-intentioned and helpful input from others about how you?re doing, you only associate feedback with hatred and oppression and shame and rejection and attempts to violate your sensibilities ? your dignity - your humanity. Feedback was always to make you the bad one - the wrong one.

Other people ? people whose parents did not have NPD - give their children positive reinforcement and supportive feedback. Those people have learned to associate feedback with assistance - with helpful kindness. They won?t go to ?crazy-land? like you will when they get their performance review. They will feel helped. You will feel attacked. They will feel curious. You will feel inadequate. They will feel openness. You will feel fear. They will say, ?Thank you, I?ll work on that?. You will go home and cry.

And you probably do the only thing you?ve ever seen people do when they?re criticized ? you get defensive and criticize right back. You have to, right? The person must be out to get you ? that?s what feedback IS ? a personal attack! So maybe you point the finger and refuse to hear them, or else, you?re going to be emotionally destroyed by them. You?ve seen that work.

And that looks like narcissism, doesn?t it? You?re not accepting input from others about what you could do better. You feel deeply ashamed that you haven?t been perfect ? that?s what you?ve been taught ? if you?re not perfect, you?re a piece of trash who has to take all the blame for everything that?s wrong, and all the blame for those who refuse responsibility.

But you don?t have NPD. What you have is the shadow ? ?maladaptive behaviors?, as psychologists call them. The unhelpful patterns you have been taught, and which you have had to resort all your life. And they are glued in, most often, by the shame you have been made to carry.

What you have is nicknamed ?FLEAS?. They?re the bad behavior patterns and habits we picked up from living with a nutcase who had total and unhealthy control over us. They are the pain and guilt and crazy patterns we had to take on as children in order to just survive. And they?re completely un-learnable.

One of the most common issues that newbies bring here is a tremendous fear that they have NPD themselves. It?s a perfectly understandable fear. All human beings do narcissistic things, and when DoNM?s who don?t have NPD recognize and acknowledge their own self-centered behaviors, they sometimes worry that they have NPD. They feel guilty about possibly having hurt someone's feelings, been self-centered, etc., and they panic. It can really be upsetting, even terrifying. And they beat themselves up mercilessly for it - because that's what they've been taught to do.

You?ll notice that I said, ?DoNM?s who don?t have NPD??

In order for someone to recognize, acknowledge and feel guilty about their own narcissistic behaviors, they first have to have a level of empathy and sense of emotional responsibility that narcissists, by definition, do not possess. On the DoNM forum, the usual response to such a person is, ?If you?re that worried about the impact of your behavior on others, and you're willing to publicly share your fear of being NPD, trust us, you?re not NPD...You just have FLEAS."

Rose thank you, and unlike my father, I know that in whatever you say, you have my best interests at heart.

It is entirely possible that your GM is trying new tactics to get you back into the drama and playing your old role. You have changed and moved on from that but she is very unlikely to have changed and I'm sure both she and my father feel terrible unease at our upsetting the old balance which suited them perfectly, at our expense. Now we are doing what suits us they are out of sorts and as you rightly say, will do anything to try and get things back to the way they were. My dad is using money and your GM is suddenly being 'nice'. Why couldn't she have been nice before? There was no need when you were still in the drama as she had you where she wanted you. Now you have stepped out, she needs to do something to get you back. With my dad, seeing as I have cut off contact he can't try and be 'nice' to me to get me back so he is using the classic temptation of money. He has done it all my life, why would he change now?

The only sure sign in my mind that my parents have truly changed is if they wrote to me recognising and acknowledging their abuse and neglect and understanding the hurt and pain they caused me. Then I would be willing to open some form of dialogue with them.

I have often worried that I am narcissistic. I realise now that in the past I certainly did have some warped thought patterns that made me act a bit too selfishly. However I know I do not have NPD and actually since discovering the existence of such personality disorders I have really examined my own behaviours and have improved vastly I feel. I was just reacting to the abusive environment I grew up in and was acting out survival strategies, however I don't need to do that anymore

rose I can not thank you enough for posting that.
I felt relief reading it and to be able to name my weird behaviour at times. Yes I am incredibly defensive, and it becomes a huge issue at work and in the home.
I just have FLEAS. BUT as Im writing this something troubles me greatly. The thing that worries me is that if I dont work on these 'maladaptive behaviours' are they truly un-learnable?...then my kids will also get FLEAS. Just a different brand

vanillabean Have you thought what you will do now?
Your father has behaved so badly IMO. I am getting a real sense from this unfolding of who he is.
I relate to all of this because my parents (especially my dad) use money to control.
Not only is he (your father) making it clear who has the power here (well actually he no longer does) he is also busy playing the divide and conquor card by involving your sisters. He should just give you the money and he should not involve your sisters.
I dont like him one little bit and I dont even know him.
I used to feel so jealous of my brothers and sis, getting all the booty, whilst I was left out in the cold. But as someone so astutely wrote on here in response to you vanilla... THEY (as in my siblings) are still in the vortex.
Trapped in the triangle by their own greed and dependence on my fathers financially benevolent whims.
I still have moments...a lot of moments. When I am angry and again feel envy. This weekend, case in point- All my golden child buttons were being pushed whilst staying with friends who appear to have it all, financially speaking. It reminds me of being around them, my family.
But overall I feel really liberated. I feel confident that Dh and I can provide everything we need for ourselves, for each other for our little family.
We can give each other love and respect and my family dont know, value or care about either of these things.

Don't cut, sweetheart. Has typing this out helped you stop? It was brave of you to write about your tantrum; I'm so sorry it has brought you down this hard.

Forgive yourself, diving. Please try to access the little girl inside you - scared, like DD was tonight, but too scared even to state her feelings (see, you are a better mum than she was!) Please try to comfort her, calm her and love her. You can comfort her, you know ...

I seriously don't think you'll be helping DD to grow up healthy & happy by topping yourself! She loves you. Now love yourself.