'But We Took You to Stately Homes' Part 2...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Mampam by "ownership" I mean I don't think the real me, whoever and wherever she may be, has made a single independent decision in my life. My parents have pervaded everything. So there's all the bad stuff, depression etc. But also the good stuff, or what looks like good stuff from the outside. I was a lawyer and a bloody good one, but that profession was pretty much chosen for me, I never really wanted it and always felt I should be doing something else, something creative. So I never got any pleasure out of it and I could never play the games you need to play to get ahead (I've realised my profession was full of NPDs and enablers, and I just spent the whole time despising and fighting them and struggling to please them, just like my parents). I'm with a good man, but I rushed into our relationship when I wasn't ready and should have been spending time on me; at the time we met I was looking to travel, retrain etc. I did not have the confidence to go it alone and risk losing the one person who might love me. I didn't have the self esteem to believe someone else might want me or he might wait for me. I never had it instilled in me as a child that I had value and was wanted, because I wasn't. I have a lovely DD but I have no idea what I'm doing, my template for motherhood is to do exactly the opposite of what my parents did, hardly a healthy approach. I could cite a thousand other examples, but my posts tend to be long and boring enough anyway.

Mampam I hope the remainder of your pregnancy/birth etc goes well and wishing you a speedy recovery from your C Section. I do hope you find a way to deal with your mother. I'm 35 weeks too. I wish to god I was not pregnant, I know that sounds awful, I was so happy to begin with. But, the nearer I get to the birth, the more I can't bear the thought of this child being born with my fucked up gene pool and already depressed from the womb after the last few months of my being permanently upset and stressed about family and life in general. I feel guilty enough about my DD and how she might grow up hating me like I hated my mother. I've been so down today, yelling at her one minute and ignoring her the next. She's done nothing to deserve it.

Smithfield I'm glad things went well at work. I'm not sure what you said or did but well done for sticking up for yourself. I re-read my suggestions from last night and want to apologise if I sounded dictatorial or preachy, I can't get out of the "legalistic" approach to everything.

I'm not going to post here again for a while, perhaps for good with DC2 imminent. I feel as if I've said too much, embarrassingly so. I've kept hoping someone will give me the answers. I found this site really helpful to start with, but I've come to rely on it disproportionately and I feel this creeping neediness every time I come here hoping for answers and, to be honest, attention, love, validation, you name it. Like a sorority because I've never been in one in RL. But as ever, I don't feel like I fit in and it makes me sad and hurt and inadequate. I guess it's the competitive, non golden, child (clammouring for attention and not getting it, wondering why her problems aren't important enough and feeling like she doesn't matter) coming too close to the surface. She needs to be pushed back into her shell where she belongs, at least for now or until I can get some therapy or something, because I just can't cope with her taking over every waking minute of my life and it's effecting my relationships with DH and DD who aren't to blame for this. I worry this stuff is too close to the surface now and is going to send me into PND again. For now anyway, I need to buck up and try to be strong and stand on my own two feet, because nobody else can, or is going to, live this life for me.

However, you've all given me lots to think about/identify with and for that I'm very grateful. I wish you all the best for the future.

I have been damaged but not irreparably and I am sure you haven't either Exotic. Remember you have that insight which your parents never had.

I alluded to my past immoral behaviours in previous posts. I did hurt some people in my drive for perfectionism, my need for every man in the room to look at me and subconsciously seeking a replacement source of unconditional love.

I am healing though and you are too. I have been low at times on this rocky journey but I have become much more tolerant and less judgemental about people. Whilst the stress of this recovery has at times affected my pareting badly it has also improved my mothering in some profound ways. I now see my dh in a different and more understanding light

I realise that the unconditional love I seeked will never be replaced. Not by my dh, not by my ILs, not by friends or even my dc. But somehow accepting that is strangely liberating because it has taught me that the only person I will get it from is myself. I can understand and love that child like nobody else can

My counsellor once asked me what good enough looked like - this is the only response I could fathom in writing over the weeks, but it is heartfelt and surprised me

It is a trust in my experiences and validating the vulnerable child now who was not validated then. It is allowing myself to grieve for that irreparable gap, which shall never be filled completely. A love lost, irretrievable and unattainable. But it is a gap that can be filled just enough to allow me to tip toe over from time to time. It is not a huge chasm I must fall to the bottom of every time life gets tough or is imperfect.

It is letting go of the hope for a black and white world, which like a chess board allows you to win through a clear set of rules and manoeuvres. Win or lose, be better than anyone else or be worst than everybody in the whole world, be black or be white. It is accepting shades of grey in others and myself, but not finding that an exhausting minefield to be trodden so carefully and vigilantly should I face annihilation or rejection.

It is not a constant desperate need to be loved by everybody but a trust in those that do love me. It is a firm belief that I will not be rejected because I am basically a good and loveable person. I don?t need to play by the old rules anymore. I can sympathise and mourn for that little girl who was valued and devalued in swift successions by narcissists, bullies, damaged people. I can respect, love and feel proud of her ? love her for whom she was. But ultimately I can lay her to rest and let her be at peace, she deserves it after all.

The legs of my true self were cut off before it ran riot through narcissistic dreams. In its place a false self was at times constructed by that little girl. It got me to where I am today ? helped me to survive by dissociating into a perfect world. Good enough is a new set of legs carrying my true self ? newly found ? confidently into an imperfect but exciting world. It is full of opportunities, love and moments of happiness. It is a true self that has been shaped by the past but it is me and it is unique and it can cope and maybe even offer something new to others through an understanding of what a difficult childhood feels like.

Goodness, rose. That's beautiful. Thank you.

I read chunks of it out loud to myself, it had so much resonance. Am going to print it out.

refreshers, I'm sorry you're dumping us. Your contributions have been really valuable and, if you choose not to post any more, I shall miss you. I respect your choices of course You have the right of free association - by law, remember! Good luck with the rest of your pregnancy; I wish you an easy & happy birth. Stay well & be confident; you deserve to.

Message withdrawn

pm: < his proxy medaughter wife > Jeez, I don't know if that word is common currency in your line of work or something - but THANKS for it! I might even slide into my next conversation with Golden Bro next time ... that'll be the one with the beautifully fragile, hopelessly unaware (psychologist) wife, who finds herself locked in Hellenic conflict with his daughters - whilst hers go neglected. Medaughter indeed

You know what I was worrying about our finances tonight as we have a little baby but my DH and I so love our little boy who is very happy.

I have read through many of the posts and have cried and cried - it is just so awfully sad.

Bagofrefreshers I have stumbled across your post and you know what I think that if you are parenting in an opposite fashion to the way that you were brought up then bravo to you.

Please do not be so harsh on yourself - many of the posts on here are far to harsh on themselves. You have recognised that you have yelled at your daughter and have rightly recognised that she has done nothing to deserve it.

I do feel that you and others will not repeat the cycle of abuse, the past does not equal the future.

I wish you all every happiness that you all deserve.

Grace thanks for the understanding! I made it up...I got into my line of work precisely because I imagined I'd be amongst people who inhabited a richer,more self-aware,emotionally intelligent and psychologically healthy place ,who would talk and explore - in the way we do on this and other threads - for the greater healing and growth of others....

Sadly,in my experience, that is not the case...

Same scripts ,same hierarchy's ,same ego stuff and same staggering inability/refusal by many whose lives have been ok - ie not abused - to understand anything from the perspective of those who have been less fortunate..(the majority IMO )
I'm referring to colleagues here ! Sadly ,when the core business is to provide a service for individuals whose issues (IMO always) might arise from experiencing abuse as children;the desperate defences of the top of the pile deniers and players - however well read ,or published ,in the professional journals - is what leads to an "us and them" mentality which ensures the perpetuation of the same old crap being re enacted throughout the system , a service whose policies and structure's themselves deliver from the script of a dysfunctional - usually NPD family...

It's just as difficult as anywhere to find people who "know"...

I am going to have to get to grips with what this set up has dealt me.Hiding on maternity leave currently.

Grace,you have referred to a work situation with an NPD boss....
I have frequently found myself in painful situations where the dynamics mirror my family script....where my role is identical to my allotted place in the family,and the pain is the same..
Has anyone read Patricia Evans on Spellbreaking....I have been told by a healer that "my purpose" is to "break spells" and that that is why I am repeatedly in those set ups.....to learn the way to be free ?crack the code...
Hope I do it before I die ,or I might be in for a heap more shit..

I have been called a pattern breaker.

I am begining to realise, very painfully today, that maybe I am part of the problem. Letting go of the script has today, left me feeling very scared, very alone, very angry, and full of rage at the injustice of my life. But there is a weird sense of floatiness, unreality....maybe that is acually me reconnecting to the REAL world. Real reality if you like, where I am allowed to exist. Even writing this is bringing violent emotions up,I'm scared.

I didn't think my story was so bad, but it is. Now that the genie is out of the bottle, all kinds of things are coming back to me. As a child I had no choice, and as an adult, I did, but was paraysed, even after escaping to university. They have neve forgiven me for doing that. Actually the abuse gets worse.

I have been on the edge of suicidal for ever. They hate me so very much, and I have done nothing to deserve this hatred, apart from be born.

Prettylegs - your post has made me well up. Your sense of floatiness, unreality I can relate to. I have had periods of feeling like that since I opened the can of rotten worms so to speak. I have been opening up to others more, but I always feel negatively afterwards (following a brief period of elation at having spoken up for myself)

I feel ashamed, worried that people will think less of me, that I am exaggerating or making it up. There is always a sense that they don't quite 'get it'.

But they won't will they? They didn't live through my particular experience, why would they? The crazy head wrecking world of living with narcissists seems like a horror fantasy that belongs in a book or film. People who are not fully human and mothers who do not love their children. It is a very unsavoury snack to swallow for most

But I realise now that I can trust my own experiences and validate myself. Yes I expect those who love me to listen and believe me and to feel sympathy (if not empathy) and to provide support. but I have stopped expecting them to really know and to feel the anger I do. I suppose it is just the same that I could never really know the pain of the loss of a child but I can imagine it and sympathise.

I am starting to realise that I won't be rejected by those who matter most just because I have stopped playing happy families with my abusers, a pretence I felt I had to play to fit in.

The floatiness I think is a departure from script but not quite feeling at one with your new reality either. We need to write a new script which includes ourselves as ourselves and not an actor or a front.

For example how could I explain that when my adoptive father once said to me agressively that the nurse who had given him his flu jab 'had a lovely nature for a nurse' he was emotionally abusing me. He wanted to imply that I didn't because my script had to include the possibility that I was 'bad'. This was like a get out clause should I rip up the script and expose his lies, abuse and manipulation. Well she is bad and that is that - it is not me to blame and I can keep playing out my script in some other way

In his mind being a nurse was a threat. It suggests niceness and caring. Of course there are awful nurses out there but I suppose it still has this connotation

I couldn't explain this to those with normal upbringings - it might sound paranoid or over sensitive. But I know and I think you guys do to

We have to trust ourselves, it is hard though it really is

I know...inderstand and empathise. I completely understand. They always get "one in" at any opportunity. And if you try and deviate from the script...they up the ante, big time.

I am struggling today. I feel cast adrift, I know that this is a good thing because I need to be cast off, to sail to somewhere else. But it's cold and lonely and scary. I know it won't be for long, and I know that where I am sailing from would have brought me to a premature death through suicide. God I can't write any more.

Prettylegs hang in there - you are on the downward curve of a wave and it will pass,like it has before and will again.

I'm so sorry you are feeling like this today

God my bastard mother is at the door will post later

refreshers No! why? please come back I have got so very much out of your postings .
Sometimes I have posted on here and I haven't had a specific response to my post and I've begun hand wringing and feeling guilty Ive said far too much and believing anyone reading my posts must think Im mad.
Please dont go. Unless you think it is better for YOU to do so, which is entirely a different thing.
BTW what I said to my boss was pretty much what you had suggested too, except I wasn't brave enough to email it. I think grace said pretty much reiterated what you had said but her post kind of gave me permission to say it rather than email it. So apologies for not aknowledging your part in spuring me on.

rose that's absolutely beautiful. Im crying reading that. I will print that out and pin it to my fridge.

bagofrefreshers - please don't go if it is because you feel you don't fit in. I think we have all felt that all our lives really and this is the last place for a script or competition - you haven't said too much because this is the place to express freely, something none of us could do in our childhood.

It is okay to be needy, to need validation and support and I fear it is your internal critical voice telling you otherwise. We all fit in here because we have all suffered at the hands of abusers. I hope that helps x

I also think sometimes people cannot accept the truth when you try and tell them because they are too busy trying to side step their own pain. They too are busily sticking with their own scripts.
I recently confessed to the woman I believe to be my best friend in the world that I have gone nc with my mother. It took me two years (so almost the length of time I had been out of contact in the first place) to pluck up the courage to tell her.
Ive not heard from her since I have been online at the same time recently, and I have rung her but she has not responded.
It makes me a little sad but I dont blame myself in any way.I have finally found enough self validation to withstand her rejection of my truth.
If I am honest I probably knew deep down she would have difficulty with this. After all I know her better than anyone else. Therefore I also know her script and what it entails.
If she were to validate my pain how could she continue to ignore her own.
I cant blame her, I still love her as a human being and when (if ever) she is ready. I'll be here for her.

diving welcome back. You were sorely missed . Hope the presentation went well.

Pretty legs. hang in there. As others have said you are about to bob under water for a bit , but you will bob straight back up I promise. when you do there will be much more clarity than before.

thank you grace, atilla exotic diving refreshers everyone for spuring/cheering me on with my work issues.

I have so much I want to respond to but have to pick a small child up from school.

be back later. No doubt.

refreshers if you are reading...see how many of us would miss you. You've clearly made a big impact in a short while.

rose missed you out above. sorry.

hello again....had a very big cry. That sobbing from the belly crying.

Things are coming back to me and also the memories of how those events made me feel at the time. Those times of utter hopelessness and suicidal feelings.

I am becoming increasingly astonished at the levels of cruelty I have endured. No wonder they need to drug themselves into oblivion.

Their hatred of me is overwhelming...and all I am is me, just another person. I don't have the superpowers ascribed to me by them.....maybe to them that's how it looks. The power to charm professionals into believing I am sane, when they know the "real" me. My therapist asked me who I thought this "real" me is....I have no idea....she was alsmot visibly chomping at the bit to get to them!

I am happy to turn my back on my mum and sisters, but the total personality change which has occured in my husband will take much longer.

I have put up a photo of h when he was in an obese phase.......he you yo diets like no one I have evr known....going from morbidly obese to underweight in a matter of months by literally eating nothing but grapes, raisins and water.

I put it up with skinny h pictures to remind myself that his problems are immense. It kind of helps

DD didn't recognise him.

Prettylegs, I know what you mean by deviating from the script. I have stepped out of line a week ago and now my mother isn't speaking to me.

I lurch from mad elation to desperate guilt and really really want to be able to say f**k you I don't care that you aren't talking to me, it isn't my fault and if you don't like it tough but I am scared.

Last night I talked at length with DH about my past and he can't understand why when my mother has behaved so badly why I even bother with her. I wonder the same thing too.

I so want this to be the end with her, even a week after the explosion I still feel violent towards her and can't believe her accusation that I would be cruel to my child or that the fantastic future we are facing is tantamount to abuse.

Since this has happened it is like my sub concious has gone into total over drive and my mind is racing with vileness.

Today I have been upset over angel delight - how mad is that.

My brother and I use to go to child minders (different for each of us) after school. My brother went to a lovely lady who fed him well, he had puddings, angel delight, whereas I went to a total nutter who abused her own children beyond belief. I used to wish I went with my brother and had angel delight!

Years later I tackled my mother on this and she cliamed not to realise what was going on but then totally contradicted herself recently when the daughter of my child minder was being discussed as someone who today has lots of issues and my mother said well what do you expect when she had that nutter for a mother.

That nutter was paid to 'look after' me. Feed me vile food and beat us when the football went over the fence. Until my mother would come for pick up plus a box of wine and instead of going home she would sit there getting hammered before driving us home, smashed at whatever hour of the night.

I could go on and on but will shut up now

prettylegs, I'm very sorry you're going through this with your H. I suppose it might have been inevitable in a way, as your relationship was built on troubles shared. Your own development is happening so fast, it might be wise to just ... wait and see what turns up, while you discover the 'real you'. Are you coping okay with his changes? It must be so frustrating that he's dived head-first into your mother's dream-world!

Hope DD knows she's entitled to have her own feelings - including being scared by her own nightmares

I'm feeling unpleasantly 'floaty' too. All going a bit fast just lately! Not that I'm complaining ... still such a lot of ground to make up. I told yesterday's social worker I don't have any problems managing my medication - then discovered, this morning, I've run out So, not only will I have to manage the long weekend without ADs, but also to admit that I'm still going "I'm FINE! I can cope!" when, clearly, I'm not and I can't.

Gaahh.

Maybe it was the full moon? Maybe we pushed one another a bit TOO fast yesterday?

My h has had bad things happen to him over the last twelve months, he has lost a lot of work. Work means everything to him. He has been treated appallingly by an employer and simply couldn't stand up to them. He was expected to find, and help his replacement, which to normal people is just intolerable. Well it was for him too.

And before that, his brother managed to let his heroin addiction take his life....drugs on both sides you see. But not before being hideous to my h and saying and doing some disgusting things. His family are such a mess.....sorry forgot myself there....they are perfect in every way .

Much easier to blame me and fall into bed with those who already do.

So many thought provoking and insightful posts, I feel overwhelmed.

Rose, I know exactly what you mean about your adoptived father and his comment about nurses. About how most other people in RL would not understand how this sort of thing was part of the abuse. But I understand perfectly. My dad was just the same (and MIL), verbal knives going in all the time, sometimes almost without me noticing (more MIL's style), or obviously and openly like my dad. But if I told people in RL, they just wouldn't understand, I suppose unless they knew the context and how can one explain something that is intangible at times?

Like you said, I know people on here understand and that feeling of being truly 'heard' is invaluable.