'But We Took You to Stately Homes' Part 2...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have every intention of finding out why!

Both my sisters have children who are horribly damaged. My eldest niece is a complete mess. She was mugged last year, and appeared to be very proud of herself. I think she was enloying some very rare positive attention. She has been treated apallingly by her mother, my sister. She was sexually abused at 5 by sisters boyfriend, while sister was out reeling in her next catch.

My other sisters daughter is in therapy, has night terrors, and is completely controlled by her father, who has made her terrified of the world. This sister has a conviction for threats to kill and intent to commit arson. Both sisters have done/do drugs....serious drugs in one case.

I was considered utterly deviant for suggesting that maybe the family was dysfunctional. That is actually quite funny now, which maybe is a sign of progress. I hope so.

So how come I can see it and they can't/ won't?

And they wonder why I don't want my children going there!

Yes you are right Grace my brother is the Golden Child, not just to my parents but to other family members too. All the horrid things he has done and all the lies he has told/still tells doesn't seem to make a difference. I try to be a good person and live by my morals - hasn't got me anywhere.

I remember once my older brother had a fairly new car, he left my mums house and he had a crash (no one was injured), the car was a right off. My mother said she just wanted to go down to the beach, walk into the water and keep on walking. I wished to myself that she would.

I know there is no point in applying common sense to this but how can these people not realise that there is something wrong with them? How can my mother not compare herself to another woman who has a great relationship with their daughter and realise that ours is shit? How can she say horrid things to me in a nasty tone of voice and think it's ok, yet she wouldn't dream of doing this to others.

My Step-father used to stick up for us as kids with her but it seems he has had the soul sucked right out of him and has morphed into her......perhaps for an easy life.

Exotic and prettylegs I am trying my hardest to break the cycle with my children. I tell them I love them all the time and kiss and hug them. I was NEVER told I was loved when I was a child yet I had to listen to her telling my younger brother all the time. I've at least broken that cycle.

prettylegs gosh I can imagine the reaction if I ever would dare to suggest our family was dysfunctional. My mother is very good at playing the victim hence the reason why I won't say anything at the moment to her. She would thrive on us falling out just before my baby is born, would get much more attention from people then.

It amazes me too how I can see what's wrong yet they can't/won't. I've questioned myself many times wondering if it's me not them.

Can I join ?
mampam your description sounds so familiar,especially the intrusion/entitlement regarding your babies.
My mother bought all the stuff - car too,big 7 seater,which my dc's have been in twice,and which when my xh left with my people carrier,she refused to lend me,nut then lent it to my SIL for her one dc...

I moved here - 30 miles - and she tells everyone how grieved she is that I am denying her a relationship with her g'children..
When I was pg with dc 1.2.3&4,she would poke ,prod and touch me ,anywhere she felt like it,would reach into my bra and get out my breasts when b'feeding.Constantly undermined my parenting and asking intrusive questions about milk supply and blood loss...eww...

With new baby,she is too far away to drop in at any time, as she could before.So she phones endlessly,asking same yucky questions and criticizing whatever she can - more difficult ,as I tend to answer in monosyllables - which of course is "rejecting" of her.

She was initially furious at me for "kicking out the only decent man I've ever had,denying him a relationship with his child and forcing other dc's to cope alone with single mother - will never be wanted by any other man now..."
However ,now she never refers to me being alone again ,with new baby etc...and is constantly amazed and worn out at my lack of sparkle and enthusiasm on the phone.
If I point out that under the circumstances it's hardly suprising,she says "what do you mean?" If I respond honestly,and refer to missing xp and coping alone,she gives it the "well you kicked him out..etc" ,or if I say I'd rather not discuss ,thanks...it;s "you shut me out of your life..."

My father treated her and me exactly like xp.

I've told her it's out of my hands and SS have warned me not to let him back....no reply,change subject..."mother,did you not hear what I said?"
"yes,but really,we've had enough of all your little dramas over the years,it's always so miserable listening to you"

Sorry if I';m butting in.

Prettylegs - freedom prog not so good round here...we were given a handout and asked to have a chat with one another about dominant men.There were only 4 in the group and the others were teenagers who were very shy.
I will persevere.

Good God pinemartina she's awful. She should be supporting you now that you are a lone parent with 4 DC not criticizing you. I

My mother criticized me too when I was a lone parent. XH had an affair and left me for the OW and left me with nothing basically. My mother told me I was an ungrateful bitch who didn't deserve anything I had. She also told me what a bad mother I was (pot calling kettle black I fancy).

Seems like you can't win no matter what you do with your mother and I was totally shocked that your mother poked you and even got your breasts out. How dare she. You must have felt awful?

Exotic so much of what you say resonates with me. One of my lightbulb moments recently was also how many of my rows with DH are just replays of the interaction between my father and me. One of the big things for me is DH's relationship with his ex, whom he holds in high esteem despite her bad treatment of him. The jealousy and resentment I feel to her is beyond any logic and I always feel that DH loved/liked/respected her better than me. DH has made it perfectly clear that I am the one and only and he had no intention of marrying her - he just doesn't hate her and wants to be friends with her. A couple of weeks ago I realised I was playing out the Dad, me, Golden Child scenario with DH, me and his ex. Any time I have reason to feel shit about myself (and that's pretty often), then I compare myself with DH's ex and accuse him of comparing me too, she's so great she'd be able to do XYZ without falling to pieces, fucking it up etc. Absolutely no justification at all in treating DH like this. Just the resonance of childhood when I could never do anything or be as good as the Golden Child (and still can't). It's driven a huge wedge between us in our marriage and caused issues in our social life. I just don't have the confidence or self esteem to believe DH really loves me for me and not in some comparative, relative or reflective way, because I had no experience of such "unconditional" love as a child.

Grace I had to smile wryly at your prediction that your Golden Child sis will half inch everything when your mum has gone. My sister has already done that with the few (and there's not much) little bits that might have some value, and more annoyingly, any old family photos (so the rest of us have no photos of our childhoods and she is not sharing - I therefore don't have a picture of myself as a baby to do some of the Bradshaw work ). She sees this as her entitlement. She too will do bugger all when our parents die, just as she has done nothing during past crises, but will dictate and criticise from afar. I will never forget when my mother had her first stroke. My bro. youngersis and I between us went up to see parents every weekend, cooking, cleaning, doing the hospital visits. Golden Child did not come to see her once or take any proactive interest in our mother's care, but was quick to yell down the phone at us if we had not asked the doctors exactly the right information she wanted. I once suggested that she explain to me what I should be asking mother's doctors. She screamed down the phone at me "why do I have to do everything". She's a doctor, by the way.

The thing that's making me angry at the moment is something is how my parents basically "own" everything in my life. In one way or another, I have been fighting, fleeing, rebelling against or emulating everything they threw at me as a child. Even the supposed good stuff has their finger prints all over it. I'm sick of it.

Social worker came. I am so grateful for our welfare system, badly flawed though it is. I - who have earned stacks of money through my life, could always get a table at The Ivy, renovated property in my spare time, travelled intrepidly, have been widely published, had designer clothes and designer homes - cannot, now, run my simple domestic life without support. I don't open my post. I don't clean. I don't brush my teeth!

This happened because I stepped out of the script (the punishment can be dire indeed.) Now I see the truth, I don't know how to exist - as you said, prettylegs. I'm learning it all from scratch. It's so weird, and frightening.

It reminds me of The Matrix - when you take the blue pill, you're empowered to see the reality but can never choose to plug yourself back into the lie.

I didn't choose the pill; don't suppose any of us here did. I certainly understand why my sibs prefer to stay in script! My Narc boss and nasty husband both had their hooks in me at the same time ... and my inner self went "ENOUGH!" In spite of the depradations, I'm glad it happened to me. I prefer it out here. Do you know, a therapist had to train me to ask "What does that mean?" if I didn't understand something. For 47 years of my life, I didn't know I had the right to ask.

Just like The Matrix. No wonder I love that film so much

My nieces & nephews are all screwed up, too. Mental health issues, behavioural disorders, eating disorders, OCD, perfectionism. Between them, they make a wonderful package of everything my family stands for. Poor them (and poor future partners!)

And only the Golden Children have got children. The rest of us couldn't ... but we didn't try very hard. Some vestigial sense of responsibility in there, I suspect!

'departing from the script' - what a brilliant way to look at it. I am well aware of the script my adoptive parents act out and what my part was supposed to be.

The truth is he (my adoptive father) never saw me, just a cardboard cut out of what I should be. He would often look at me blankly when I was talking to him. Not just a momentary lapse in concentration but a strange far away look, like he didn?t understand the words I was saying in plain English. He would react to words which made sense to him and I realise what was happening was that he could listen to words which complied with the cardboard cut out but not ones which didn?t. It was more than just rudeness or not wanting to listen to things that didn?t interest him ? it seemed like some cognitive dysfunction. His delusions of grandeur could not be deflated, words which could prick the bubble of his dreams had to be filtered out, lest the bubble was burst and all that was left was a damaged and self loathing real person. Every achievement was soaked up but he never understood the substance of those achievements ? they were needed to protect his bubble that was all

It makes sense that he would brag about my first class honours degree but not about the fact that it was in nursing. To him a nurse did not fit the script. It was too humble and not what he had in mind i.e. a so called status profession or brilliant sporting talent to cut off the huge working class chip on his shoulder. It was more than inverted snobbery though, it was a front for a deep sense of self loathing and inadequacy about his won life. It is all front and no substance with these people.

I went into nursing because they continually made me out to be the 'baddy' as I would not really act according to their script. I internalised the idea that I was bad and nursing was my way to prove I wasn't. It has not been completely the wrong choice of career but given my time again I would choose another. Maybe I will one day when I can find out who I really am and what my talents are.

Aargh Hope that didn't look as though I think any of you irresponsible for having children. Not what I meant at all! And I shouldn't have said it anyway - it's just as likely we didn't push for kids because our parents kept telling us how difficult DCs are.

Have hoovered. Have cleaned my teeth
Tackling the post mountain next!

"we've had enough of your little drama's" Substitute "drama's" for "antics" and that's MY mum!!!

I know when my h has been talking to her because he uses all of her repertoire of stock phrases. He doesn't realise that I have been hearing these words for 46 years now. I'm very familiar with them.

According to patricia Evens....they actually CANNOT hear or see us, because they are disconnected from their senses. And when we try to make them, they get angry, but look into their eyes...it's not anger, it's terror. Utter terror.

The other thing that has always struck me...and maybe there is some hope here....is that where I have gone, they have followed. As an escape from her clutches, I went to university at 26. It was after hearing "families and how to survive them" on radio 4 one saturday morning whilst brushing my teeth. They were talking wabout children who don't leave home. They said it was because the parents needed them to stay at home, so they never had the confidence to spread their wings and fly....the normal healthy thing to do.

I must have stood frozen with toothbrush in hand for some time listening to this. and applied for uni that week. I git in, and graduated four years later.

Then both my sisters went to university and my mum did some course which had a "graduation" ceremony at the end...not a degree, but that's not the point. When I moved to a certain tow.....so did they! One of her problems with me is that I MADE her move there and then moved miles away and cut her off from my kids.

She diagnosed my ds as autistic, and whilst only having spent hours with my dd, and can't spell her name, has decided already that she is a difficult and will prove to be a "handfull"

So she's doing it to them already.

When dd told her daddy that she's been having nightmares...he apparently said, no you haven't.

Patricia Evans is the best on this stuff.

If it helps, roseability, my dad disliked the fact I was a child prodigy, knew more than he did on many topics, and took a degree on a subject in which he had no expertise, so could not speak to me about it as the end result would not be that he had shown himself to be the cleverest. When I graduated, he told me 'When you leave, you can become a secretary, and if you work really really hard, maybe you could become a PA...'

Now, nothing wrong with either of those jobs - and they're pretty well-paid if that's how you want to judge things - but if he had spent any time asking me what I wanted in my life that would not be the path.

My dad and I got on well until I was nine, when (when my mother was working) he would seize on the smallest misdemeanour and use it as the starting point for a rant. I would be stood in my room for what felt like hours when he would shout and scream at me, calling me a moron, boring, a disappointment, an embarrassment, subhuman, and on one occasion that I caused his heart attack. He would also beat me around the head, sometimes with trays or books. (I suffer from persistent headaches now, i wonder sometimes whether these are linked). he was draconian, and I was always amazed when I visited friends and saw that they got lifts from their dad, or their dad knew what they studied at school, or asked them questions. Several times I wondered about running away but knew that the consequences would not be good. I constantly wished they'd get divorced. I sometimes felt hate so strong it was a physical, not emotional reaction. My friends didn't know, until the day when one stayed over in my teens, he accused me of taking some of his batteries, and then of being a liar when I told him I hadn't. He kicked the bathroom door down with my friend on the other side. It was the only time he apologised, forcing me into a hug that I did not want. The nicest thing he said to me during my teens was 'you're not bad looking'.

I was also very close to my mum, who he was similarly patronising and belittling to, though not physically abusive - when I was 24, she spoke back to him during an argument, and they didn;t speak for six months - he took his meals upstairs, and would throw rubbish out the window instead of passing through the living room to put it in the bin because it meant passing her.

When I left for university one year, aged 20 I said in passing 'calm down' and he got so angry he spat in my face and told me that if I ever spoke to him like that under his roof I could expect to never come back over the doorstep. I moved to Manchester then London not long after graduation, my career took off (I currently earn more than he did) and then he died of cancer when I was 24. i have pretty difficult feelings about it. Mainly, I'm sad because of the effects on my mother, who finds it hard to cope.

I've been treated for depression since I was 18 and a few years ago it was decided I have bipolar disorder. Now, I'd taken the decision some time before not to have children, because I didn't want a child to be in that environment, whether from the cycle repeating or from visiting home, so the 'meaning' of that if you like, the options it's closed off to me, isn't so bad. But I do wonder what sort of person I would have been if it hadn't happened. I had a difficult time in my teens because I was very awkward and very clever and my peers didn't really understand me - the town I grew up in isn't somewhere for the ambitious or the thoughtful to fit in. I would have loved my dad to teach me chess or talk to me properly about things instead of telling me why I was wrong to think what I did, or even to be able to have a discussion without shouting, but I didn't have that, and when I have to be confrontational professionally now I find it extremely difficult and with my boyfriend I find it hard not to burst into tears and get over-upset. When I last saw my psychiatrist, the idea of borderline personality disorder came up - something that is often linked to 'physical, sexual or emotional abuse; and I thought 'but I haven't experienced any of those things...'

Sorry, this is a long post. It just kind of all came out really. I'm moving house this week and I think I'm a bit stressed!

I don';t know how to edit here...

I remember my auntie once saying at a family gathering that she heard my dad hit me on the head with a tray and laughing. I don't know whether she thought it was some funny slapstick thing, or whether she just didn't believe me. sigh.

I feel like a bad person because the worst thing to come out of my father's death is not that he isn't here anymore but that there's no income in my family now, and it's left my mother pretty badly off now she's a pensioner. Money seems valued above everything in my family - everything on how much it costs, being a millionaire is the highest status one can aspire to in life, and my mother once came home from town depressed because a family friend's son had a successful business but my brother had no job. (He has four kids by two different women. three of these are his long-term partner. Two of these are the product of a threesome. Yeah. My mum is pretty embarrassed about that.) Presents judged on their cost - when my mum was complaining about something, the main point was how much was spent on it.

The thing is. My dad was very stingy day to day - he wore old clothing, he'd never give me money to buy sweets if i asked him, and a meal out involved an Asda cafe. (NB he was an architect.) However, he made bloody stupid big financial decisions, meaning that my mother had to deal with an enormous debt when he died. I was pretty financially irresponsible when younger and seeing the consequences of this has made me more keen to not leave anyone in the same position.

Bless your auntie, mippy, she probably thought he'd bopped you on the top of the head - like slapstick, as you say. Well, either that or she's another dysfunctioner.

I have 2 remaining aunts: my mum's brothers' wives (uncles all dead). They are both exceptionally wonderful women. Both helped me in my teens: subtly but determinedly, clearly aware of what my parents were doing to me. I keep meaning to get in touch with them but don't know what to say! I know they'll be good for me, though ... aha [lightbulb]! All I have to do is write them ordinary letters, no heavy stuff - and they'll reply. Not such a big deal, after all

This time last year, Mum & I visited one of my aunts. The conversation was one of those emotionally-intense ones that women have when there's much ground to cover. At one stage, Aunty said something to me about "having to parent one's parents". Mum leapt on that, poking away, but both Aunty and I refused to discuss. You can imagine how much I love her for that!

Other very sane, good people in my life have been: a primary-school teacher with violet eyes; a few of my school friends' mothers; a benevolent, male geography teacher at secondary school; a similar lecturer at uni; one male boss and two female ones; my wonderful female friends D and S. And Tracey, my first therapist.

My paternal grandmother was not sane, evidently, but loved me unconditionally. The dead uncles were troubled but very kind. There have been others who, although disturbed/distressed, showed me real kindness and respect.

I'm extremely grateful for all of them. The people above are my links to REAL life, where the scripts are fluid & helpful tools instead of prisons. Thanks to them I have some idea of what real kindness is; what love is meant for; how I want my life to feel.

Social psychologists say that one genuinely sympathetic, kind and balanced adult can save the child of psychotic parents from developing the full set of parental symptoms. I'm so very grateful to have had the benefit of more than one. If I can repay them by living well, that'll be great!

... I do at least one good turn a day. Have done since I can remember. The look of utter incomprehension on my family's faces, when I mentioned this everyday fact, told me everything I didn't want to know. Needless to say: they then went on to deride, doubt, criticise and compete. Wankers.

Sorry for the extended ramble! I'm having the night off now - got paid today, so it's steak & chips with wine & the telly for me now

So I did it. Woo hoo. Said exactly what you said grace so thanks for your advice.
There was much arguing, but I stood my ground.
DH said 'ring in sick'...colleague said 'go on long term sick'. In the past I would have done these things just to escape any uncomfortable feelings.
This time I thought 'No!...that just has implications for me, paints me as the bad guy'. Leaves the people doing the shoving feeling vindicated.
So by doing that I would have been as you ladies have been discussing reverting to back to my 'script'.
Its progress isnt it. One in the eye for my mother.

grace Mmmm that sounds like a good plan. enjoy your evening x

Yaaaayyy Smithfield!!!!
I just thought I'd quickly check to see if you'd posted back - thanks!

I'm so proud of you Hope you are, too.

Bagofrefreshers what do you mean when you say your parents basically "own" everything in your life?

Grace -be kinder to yourself! Your extensive caring,insightful and sensitive posts show clearly that you were unlikely to have meant that!

Again - you have captured it brilliantly,
"departing from the script"
"the matrix"

Absolutely spot on!

My Golden Child youngest brother (and his proxy medaughter wife) are the keepers of the script and are waiting to step into the head of house shoes,as my father slowly expires,ensuring my allotted role as dead -loss- drama -queen -failure -atrocious -single-mother-nobody -wants ,remains firmly intact - for them

Something that ItsGraceAgain wrote made me think yet again about my dreadful and dysfunctional inlaws. My parents btw are not much better; they all have given me abject lessons in how not to treat fellow human beings.

I think my MIL actively needs and enables my BIL to stay at home and he's now 47 years of age. FIL has withdrawn from life there and allows her to get on with everything (well she likes being in charge).

FIL also caused a brief spat in this house a few weeks back when he wrote a letter (marked confidential) to my DH. If I had known it was from him (I did not recognise his writing primarily because in all the years we've been wed he's never written to us). He basically typed that he's got no more cash because he's used it on the cuckoo in the nest, he's going to turn 80 soon and he's hoping that the problems re BIL will disappear (hope over experience that one is).
The only parts that were actually hand written were the words Dad and Dear X.

BIL has not spoken to his brother (i.e my H) for two years. And he probably never will again. Seeing as BIL is NPD that's no great shakes really.

My wonderful DH is the only sane one out of that particular house of the dysfunctional three but I don't think he completely escaped unscathed. A perfectionist nature is a character trait of his along with being conditioned by his bloody mother) but I can bring him back to normality.

Why do these women do this, this is what I want to know (will continue to do my own researches online). Why are they themselves so bloody lacking?. Any insight or further thoughts on that are appreciated.

Am very proud of you Therealsmithfield - you've come a hell of a long way. Would just like to end my missive tonight by saying that you all have my profound respect.

Grace earlier post crossed others...hope you have a lovely evening

Grace, you have described me perfectly here
"....children who don't leave home. They said it was because the parents needed them to stay at home, so they never had the confidence to spread their wings and fly... "

I didn't properly leave home til I was 30 for the exact reason you/R4 stated. I completely lacked the confidence because my parents made me feel like I wouldn't be able to cope on my own and I was useless. I wanted to leave home many times but I just couldn't do it. In fact if I ever mentioned I was always talked out of it by my parents. And the truth is that I actually wouldn't have coped because I had been effectively 'disabled' by the abuse and so in a sense my parents were right. But I wasn't inherently useless, I was damaged by their abuse, which of course I can see clearly now but couldn't at all back then.

I think I was lucky enough to have a few good people in my life as a child, some very good friends and their families. I spent so much time at friends' houses as opposed to my own, probably as part of an unconscious childhood survival instinct, that I almost became a part of their families. Although I can't really pinpoint a particular adult who was "genuinely sympathetic, kind and balanced" as you have described Grace. Am worried now that the close friendships I had with children my own age weren't enough to save me from the full extent of the parental abuse.

I think I am more damaged than I have been willing until now to allow myself to believe. I have been too scared to face up to confronting just how damaging my father's abuse was because it started just before I reached puberty and was at it's worst during puberty. Those years are crucial in developing into a normal, healthy, adult and it was during those years that the abuse from my dad was at it's worst. I haven't wanted to face up to this as I have too scared to and worried that the damage may be so bad that it cannot ever be fixed/healed at least to a sufficient degree that I can have a fairly normal, healthy relationship with DH. Even writing this out now is a big step. This fear has always been lurking there at the back of my mind and I have always been pushing it away. I hope at least that now I am acknowledging this as an issue is one step towards dealing with and resolving it.

Just a few more things, smithfield well done on handing in your notice at work, I know posted many times about how much anguish you were being caused by people at your workplace and well done also for how you have handled the latest situation. Progress for sure. I have been reading and following your posts, but was just too consumed with my own stuff to be able to respond.

And Grace, yes, enjoy your evening and thank you so much for your posts, you have helped me move forward on my journey and I am grateful for that.

Feeling so much clearer headed and less 'foggy' right now. I thought I was just feeling a bit disorientated due to coming back from holiday, but I think now there was a lot of 'processing' going on somewhere in my brain and it was making me feel very weird, not depressed exactly, but just 'disorientated'.

Thank you for the namechecks But I think prettylegs, sal and refreshers actually deserve credit for some of them!

While I'm namechecking, I want to say hello, rose - you've made quite stunning strides forward and I often want to feed back on your posts. Get a bit carried away with my own stuff, though

Now well-fed, wishing this election didn't require as much TV time as it does - I want brain candy! - and am opening 2nd bottle of wine. Yes, I know ... !

I can't thank everyone on these threads enough