'But We Took You to Stately Homes' Part 2...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

My mother has similar issues with men, especially her daughter's husbands.

The trying to impress thing that you do. Are you trying to gain her approval. Do you feel that you are never good enough? Always second, at least, to her men.

What happens? Does she notice the effort you make? Is she often hypercritical of the areas you make these efforts?

A child MUST be someone's MOST important thing, and children from healthy families are. I have watched my neice slowly sinking through the lack of care and importance placed upon her existence from her mother ( my sister) It is tragic. And now my neice is the one with the clinical problems. It' s so unfair. and to watch it happening over the years is truly heartbreaking.

So now you must learn to be YOUR most important thing. Not easy, but possible.

Grace- About a week before she's going to come, I start to have thoughts running through my head about what I'll cook for lunch, what I should wear and how I should do my hair etc.

It's difficult to define exactly where the root of these thoughts lie, but I feel worried that she'd judge me if the house was grimey, and she's very, very vain herself (the vainest person you'll ever meet) so I always think I need to look nice or otherwise she might look down on me. There's probably a tinge of hoping it might make her love me too.

Re the male attention: not sure about that one.

ThisIs- yes I do feel I'm never good enough. There has been so much neglect over the years (she never went to one of my school parent's evenings, for example, and I was the only kid whose parents didn't go) so I feel like I need to make myself loveable. And yes, I am definitely always second to her men.

She sometimes comments on things, like if I've got a new vase or something minor like that, but often I do feel that she's judging me negatively. For example, because of all the meds I was on (and now being preggers) I'm 3 dress sizes bigger than I used to be, and she has (for some reason- probably to please her bloke) gone down to a size 4 in the last 2 years (which is very alarming, her skin is hanging off her). I rarely moan about wanting to lose a few pounds, but if I do mention it ever, she starts telling me strange diet tips such as that I should only eat a portion of meat the size of a pack of playing cards etc. She seems to absolutely revel in her weeny size and be super proud of it (but she probably is anorexic these days) and I sense an overwhelming embarrassing feeling that she either pities or looks down on me for not being as slim as I used to be. But, really, in myself, I'm ok with it. I am not desperate to lose weight or upset about it.

So sorry about your niece. I'm determined not to let my past affect my little boy's future. Luckily I think I'm of pretty healthy mind these days, and all the relationships around me (bar my mum) are healthy and positive.

That's a very important point you make at the end there. I still haven't quite valued myself at that level, and a lot of that is because of my mum still causing me huge issues.

How about an experiment? Take stock of your dress and your home on an average-to-poor, normal day. Make up your mind to have everything exactly like that, next time your mum visits. Then don't apologise for anything, or draw attention to things: just see how she reacts, if at all.

How does that feel?

Oh and just to add- her current partner also puts me on edge with his comments. In recent visits he has commented on my mirrors being smeary/ my loo not being clean enough/ etc, and has also made negative comments about what me and hubby spend on food/ holidays/ etc as well. So on top of her judging me, I also have to contend with that idiot.

I was really really cross after the last time they came round (April! have avoided it since!) because of all his comments. Rude twat.

Grace- cross posted with you. The thought of that terrifies me! I think she'd feel I was a slob.

Which is actually quite bizarre because I'm a housewife and all I do is clean anyway!

Goes to show how bad this problem is.

Rude twat indeed!

"Gosh, so they are smeary! If it bothers you, clean them. You'll find the glass cleaner in that cupboard over there."

"Oh dear, smeary mirrors. Do you think I should hang myself now?"

"Dear me, smeary mirrors. How rude of you to notice."

"Smeary mirrors? And your point is?"

"Could you repeat that, please? No, louder, I can't hear you. Oh, SMEARY MIRRORS! That wasn't worth the effort, was it?"

One thing I have found in my therapy, is the humungus level of projection of my mum's stuff onto me.

If YOU are not bothered about a pound or two here or there, then that is you. Nothing whatsoever to do with her. Your mouth, your food, your body. Nobody elses, and especially not hers.

She has food/body issues, you evidently don't. She could get help for those if she wanted to.

Same with the house stuff. It's HER that has the problem, not you. Are you happy with how your home is, or the level of cleanliness? You live there, she doesn't. It has nothing to do with her.

How would you feel if the milkman came into your home and started being judgemental like that? oh and you are almost certainly correct in your sense that she is judging, instict and intuition are amazing things we have at our disposal. It's a good thing to trust in them.

You are questioning the unhealthy state of things with your mum, I would say that that is another sign of you being in a good place mentally.

I reckon you should try the experiment

See if the world blows up!!

Grace- hahahaha! Exactly. What a wanker!

ThisIs- that's really struck a chord with me, the projection thing. Hugely.

Me, I'm fairly laid back about the house, as long as its clean then thats cool. She has always been hugely houseproud though. I find myself as a result washing our slate bathroom floor endlessly (which never looks good!) and thinking oh god, what will she think of this?! Plus I scrub everything before she comes. I'm feeling a bit ridiculous about all this now I'm realising it!

Likewise, my body/ looks. I'm quite laid back with that too. As long as I don't look a scruff I'm happy as I like myself, but her influence makes me feel like I need to lose weight/ spend an hour on my hair.

By the way, you two are helping me more than I can possibly express.

I agree Grace, it could be really empowering to see that actually nothing will happen. If she doesn't like it, she could always clean, or leave.

I know though that the odd glance, raised eyebrow and next to nothing comment can leave you utterly floored.

I remember going to a family party, and my mother said, very casually, almost throwaway..."oh, your wearing that are you".

It doesn't mean anything,on it's own, but in the context of "her" it devastated me and I felt stupid and uncomfortable all evening. I knew she had done it on purpose, and I knew rationally that I looked fine. I knew she did it deliberately to put me off balance, and it worked. In the context of these relationships, little things can be enormous.

ThisIs- you're right about the little things being enormous.

With my mum she never says anything negative to my face, but I'm pretty sure she does when they've left or whatever, and my instincts tell me she pities me and looks down on me, because of how ill I was and because I've put weight on etc. Its just what comes across. Basically, she comes across as patronising/ pitying.

And yet, the ironic thing is, I'm of sound mind now. But, she is my undoing because of all these issues.

I feel for you MadameG and what wonderful advice you have been given by these ladies!

I am a sarky cow though so I would be making her cabbage soup from the infamous cabbage soup diet as you thought that's all shes eat as god forbid you wouldn't want to undermine her dieting now would you.

Or a pack of cards amount of meat and nothing else?

I need to get back in my box I think! Im feeling rather aggro today

MadameG- seriously, just cancel!

But if you asked her, "would you love me less if my house was a tip?" she'd protest to the heavens, wouldn't she? Or would she?

I am cancelling, don't worry 1foot!

Grace- if I asked her that she'd say 'of course I don't care what state your house is in' and probably put her arm round me etc. Which would make me feel pitied again, to be honest.

I've been thinking about all this overnight and its really come into focus how heavy this must look good enough/ house must be clean enough stuff weighs on me. Literally, it influences me even when I'm not seeing her for weeks. If I get myself a new nail polish or something else trivial then I instantly think 'I should wear that when mum's here'. This is probably for two reasons, firstly because she might like it/ me more for it, and secondly because I feel like if I'm not completely groomed with full makeup and coordinated outfit when she comes round then she maybe either gets a mini buzz out of it as she feels she looks spectacular in comparison, or maybe she looks down on me. (She never goes even to Tescos without full makeup, having spent an hour on her hair, full outfit of dress/ designer handbag/ red nails)

Looks are a big thing with her. Quite often she makes comments about how great something looks on herself (even saying recently 'I look fucking fantastic'). She is nuts about her hair (won't even go to bed before a flight so that she can ensure her hair looks good for the early morning), and revels in compliments from other people, telling everyone else what they said. It comes over that she thinks people are envious of her, including us. A few weeks back she was talking about wills and stuff and she said to me and my sister 'well when I go you two can fight over my Chanel handbag', which pissed both of us off and we both said we didn't want it. How conceited to think we're lusting after it?! After that she stormed off to the kitchen and then threw a horrid hissy fit during which you could have cut the tension with a knife.

She got married recently and I felt a huge amount of pressure, despite the wedding being a very low key affair, to do myself up to the nines (which is hard when heavily pregnant). She kept asking me ages before it what I was going to do with my hair and she seemed a bit miffed when I said I wasn't going to be able to paint my toenails red as I can barely reach them anymore. In the end on the day I piled all my hair up in an updo, and when I got there I felt I had to explain why I'd done that and not spend an hour curling it or whatever.

Nobody else in the world makes me feel like this about myself. I don't hate the way I look at all and I'm pretty happy with it.

Same goes for the house. She loves interior design and has completely overhauled her entire house. It's spotless. I feel like when she's round here she is looking down on our old bathroom and considering the amount of comments her partner makes about dust/ dirt while here, I end up feeling very stressed about how tidy or clean it all is.

And yet, I never worry when anybody else visits. I like our apartment and am very contented wih it.

All in all, she turns me into somebody who isn't good enough. Realising that has been very useful.

Do you know, MmeG, I feel terribly sorry for her. Imagine the stress of having to live up to unfeasible standards all the time (and being bullied by your lousy boyfriends, to boot). What with her anorexia, her unchipped nails and her shimmering household surfaces, she sounds very much like a woman who is never, ever "good enough". And look what she's given to you

There's a huge difference between you & her, though! You've stepped back and questioned it. She hasn't - or, more likely, can't. Whoever etched those sky-high standards into her did a great job, but you and your sister have the chance to escape. I think that, alongside our desperate craving for parental approval, we often take on their pain and want to rescue them. Unfortunately, neither outcome is possible so our challenge is to learn how to be comfortable with that.

Your mum's "inner nag" must be utterly vicious. It must constantly be threatening her with dreadful horrors, should she ever find she's forgotten her hairspray. I bet she doesn't even notice it any more ... but I bet it's spoken through her often enough, to harangue & criticise you. What do you think?

I suspect she means it when she says she wouldn't mind a bit of chaos when she visits. Her inner nag wouldn't like it, though ... imperfectly controlled? Can't have that! Nag, nag, nag!! I imagine it might cause a great deal of conflict within her: the mum who just wants you to be happy, vs the sour-faced control freak that resides in her head. It might be interesting to find out.

My mother's the polar opposite of yours: not at all polished, but much of what you've told us sounds familiar. Mine can't tell the difference between a real disaster and some 'failure' determined by her inner critic. She drove straight into an intercontinental truck - the car was mangled; she only got out alive because she was squeezed under the truck's base! She treated as though she'd just been a bit unlucky/silly and got a bit bruised. If she forgets to post a letter, though, or leaves the washing out, she's all "Oh, I've done something TERRIBLE! This is AWFUL! I AM DREADFUL!"

I say "Oh no, Mum, you'll burn in hell for years! Your washing's all wet again! Shocking." She laughs ... nervously.

I feel sorry for her, but making gentle fun of her is all I can do. I'm making damn sure I won't have an inner nag by the time I get to her age, though.

Has any of this resonated with you at all?

Grace, that last post, had a lot of insight!

Hi MmeG, I was reading through your posts and I was thinking your mother seems to like to rescue and she sounds like she is driven by be perfect!

What more do you need to share before the visit?

When you say you have no contact with your birth father, do you know what happened there? and how do you know this information?

When you say your maternal grandparents and aunts are lovely people, do you want to elaborate upon that more at this point in time?

You sound like you life a pretty normal life, and that you are content with what you have, and that is as it should be, well done you, for recognising all of this.

I have no idea what waterboarding is, forgive me if that is something I should know. The life you and your sister had to bear with your stepdad sounded very painfull, and not what you should have had to endure. Where were your aunts and grandparents when all of this was going on?

I am glad you have a good relationship with your sister, she is the one to focus your energy on, after you, your child and your oh x

mh, waterboarding is an illegal torture technique. It involves pouring water into your nose & mouth so you almost drown.

Hi MmeG,so sorry to hear what you have been and are experiencing.
Glad you are posting here and getting the benefit of everyone's support and advice.

Grace,your posts are always lovely.

I'm off to Turkey for a fortnight tomorrow morning with dc,baby and xh2 (not abusive,just a bit crap ).

It has been a major operation to get packed and organised but I am looking forward to it now.

I just wanted to wish everyone all the best over the next few weeks.
I will post again when back!
xxx

Whooo! Congratulations on getting the packing done
I'm jealous. Have a genuinely RELAXING time, PM - you could do with it.

Hi all, sorry for delay in posting, I went and bought a car today! Woohoo.

Grace- she definitely, definitely has major MAJOR insecurities. It's not normal to be so obsessed with hair/ nails/ spotless house etc, and if ever her ego takes a light battering she lashes out. And yes, oddly, when she's around that gets projected on me too- although when she's gone I'm very chilled. I agree about the inner nag thing, there must be something motivating her to be perfect all the time. My stepdad definitely damaged her a lot by making her feel more insecure (he had numerous affairs and used to bring one night stands back to the house while I was asleep upstairs and she was on her night shift- disgusting). But having said that she could quite easily have told him at the start to sod off, she knew already what he was like.

Mummiehunnie- tomorrow's visit is cancelled but I will see her for a couple of hours in the week along with other family to hand me and hubby our anniuversary presents. I feel a bit more cushioned if other people are there.

What happened with my dad- they split when she was pregnant with me, and she said she didn't want him around, so he duly sodded off to sail around the world for 16 years (and failed to pay child maintenance, even went to court) before writing to me. We started to get to know each other but he was preachy, judgemental and a bit odd, and he made me feel rubbish about myself. I cut contact for good last year. He just kept telling me how to live my life and I was extremely bitter that he had the nerve when he'd never been there.

Grandparents and aunts- they're pretty solid people, my grandparents are wonderful and caring, and my aunts and uncles are nice. They are very happy families with their kids etc.

Waterboarding- sorry guys, I used the wrong word- what he did was run a bath, then grab me by the neck and hold my head underwater at length repeatedly while screaming at me until I was gasping for oxygen. Torture technique yes, but not waterboarding- sorry got the wrong word! It was the worst thing that ever happened to me and I still can't put my face underwater 23 years later.

You asked where my aunts/ uncles etc were- my grandparent's house was my sanctuary. I went and stayed with them as much as we could possibly wrangle and I bawled my eyes out when I had to go home. My mum can be very vicious so they didn't want to overstep the mark any further, and to be fair they didn't know the extent of it all because I was too frightened to say.

Pinemartina- have a nice hol!

So on top of buying a car I also went to lunch with my sister today. I asked her how she feels about it all and she explained that having had counselling for a few years she feels more at peace about mum now and quite blase about her behaviour.

She told me that while being shown mum's holiday photos yesterday, one was of mum topless, just wearing bikini bottoms, shoving her bum out and doing a 'sexy' pose. looks for vomit smiley

I feel quite a peace about cancelling her visit tomorrow, compared to how wracked with guilt I was yesterday. You guys have helped me with that a lot.

Glad you're feeling better, MmeG! Have a good weekend, playing in your new car

I just need to write this down. I woke very early this morning, sun shining, in a good mood, with one very clear thought: "I don't know what's going on in my own life (again)" I sort of thought the 'again' in brackets, though I should say I haven't known what's going on in my life since 1997. Anyway.

In summary: That year I started working for Mad Boss; the following year I married Arsehole#2. In hindsight, I was staring at huge, flashing warning signs from the off but knew no better. What followed was 8 years of intensive gaslighting, both at home and at work. I received expensive psychiatric care which, worthwhile as it was, failed to address the actual causes of my illness as it was funded by my employers. I continued to blame myself; this was made easy by my upbringing which was, of course, illuminated by gaslight!

A few more years of failing to cope, and my mother brought me to live with her. Aarrgh. Gas everywhere. I've now been in my little house for 9 months ... and I think daylight must be starting to break through!

It's too early to call this a milestone. But I hope it is

Aaah. Your post warmed the cockles of my heart this morning, Grace. I'm so glad that you feel you're moving forward and that you feel positive. Reminds me of Here Comes The Sun by The Beatles. Maybe that should be your anthem?

Sadly I don't pick my car up til Thursday, but I'm still really excited. Its my frst car, I only passed my test 2 weeks ago. It's a shiny new Clio!

Grace, what a wonderfully positive and sunny post.

MadammeG new car...fantastic, they smell so good. Car=freedom.

PM have a fantastic time.

I have h coming today, the last two times have been fine, I'm sure today will be too. I know he's finding his therapy tough going, but it kind of has to be to work I think.

Hello all.

ThisIs- I agree that therapy has to be tough, otherwise it probably isn't getting to the root of the issues. It's hard, isn't it? Meh.

Hope everyone is enjoying this sunny weekend.

Me and hubby are going to stay at the hotel we got married in for 2 days this week, as a little pampering break and a change of scene because we're having no holiday this year (I'm 7 months pregnant).

As I mentioned I would on my last post, I cancelled my mum for yesterday and it was a nice day, I just pootled around the house in peace/silence. I made a cake for our anniversary, read a book and had a slumber infront of the tennis.

Only thing thats bugging me is that I will see her for a couple of hours on Tues (while we're at the hotel) because she and a few others are dropping off our anniversary presents. It will literally be only 2 hours ish, but I'm having some mental wranglings with myself over it.

My normal reaction, as explained before, is that for ages before she's coming I get extremely crazy anxious deciding what to wear, blah blah. But I'm determined not to do that this tme. I took off my nail polish the other day and decided not to redo it, on purpose to rebel a wee bit against the pressure in my head. I'm also not packing oodles of makeup or changes of clothes with me, I want to just approach those couple of hours like I would if I was seeing anyone else (i.e. relaxed), and yet my head is pulling in both directions, one minute telling me I need to sort my hair out/ wear a certain thing, and the rational side going 'nope, you are fine as you are, don't plan ahead at all'. The tussle is driving me crazy!!!

There is no way I will be tarting myself up for this short present-giving sesh (as I normally would), but my brain is definitely finding it hard to retune itself to not planning/ worrying.

Argh!