Introducing my partner to feminism...

[blinder]

On the back of a spate of good feminism threads here lately I am looking for book recommendations to give to my DP as an introduction to a feminist critique of society.

He's not a particularly neanderthal man - he loves Naomi Klein for example - but he's a bit uneducated about the reality facing women today.

We have a six month old daughter and it worries us both that she is being launched into a culture that systematically de-humanises (objectifies) girls. I'm sure he would be willing to explore ways that we can parent her consciously so that she can preserve her identity in the face of damaging cultural norms.

At the same time, I don't want him to feel lectured, blamed or patronised by the book. But I would like him to be able to examine his own investment in male superiority and recognise that he does have many assumptions about women and many blind spots about male privilege.

It's a fine line.

So, books for men, fathers or people new to feminism?

Blinder...

Yeah I think I probably am....

I'll leave your thread...

Adios..

They were one example. You are welcome to go off and find a popular feminist organisation that wants female supremacy over equality.

Feminism is about equality. Women can't shift their postion in society unless men do too. Feminism should be about easing restrictions on men and women. There are unspoken rules about what the sexes can do - those are what need removing. The extremists are no more relevant to the main flow of feminism than violent fundamentalists are to Islam.

Shrieky I am not disputing the statistics, but rather how they were compiled as a 2% pay gap doesn't really ring true. The 'factoring in' is highly subjective in terms of what work is 'similar' or 'broadly similar' per the Equal Pay Act.

There was something about the opening post that made my hackles rise I admit, I don't think I was unduly vicious ( I hope not anyway.
I definitely consider myself a feminist, if feminism means wanting equality and freedom from oppression for all, male or female.

I do have to take issue with your statement that growing up as a boy won't prepare you for being the father of a girl - boys generally have mothers /sisters/ grandmothers/ female cousins / female friends. They rarely grow up isolation.

I think my two young nephews are going to have a far worse time growing up than my DD ever had, young boys are definitely being failed.

As with anything else, extremes are generally bad, extreme feminism, (the man haters certainly do exist) is every bit as insidious as extreme mysogyny.

You can still be a feminist without ingesting copious amounts of feminist literature, I don't need other peoples opinions to tell me what to think.

"There are unspoken rules about what the sexes can do - those are what need removing."

And you never see moans about male childcare workers or male midwives on MN then?

?

I don't think MN is a bastion of equality.

Malificence tbh I don't feel particularly prepared myself. Growing up in the 70s and 80s was much easier than today I think.

That isn't what Burchill is insinuating at all Shrieking. She is inferring that women who say they are not feminists imagine that all feminists are lesbians (burning their bra, not shaving their legs and wearing dungarees etc)

Yes gunther, and that is what this thread seems to have shown.

Oh actually, having re read it, maybe she is-consider myself an active feminist, but don't agree with this sentiment myself. Apologies Shrieking.

I don't get the posters on here who seem to think that as feminists we want men to 'suffer as we have suffered'. I have no desire to exist within a society that regards any human being as somehow 'lesser' than the other.
I also really dislike the term 'victim' as applied to women. Surely we have been figting for years now to redefine ourselves as survivors. It just feeds into the notion that women are passive creatures.

*fighting

TSH I don't think Julie Burchill would consider lesbian as an insult, seeeing as how she had a girlfriend for years.

This thread is totally depressing, I can't believe how many people are threatened by the concept of feminism. It's only equality FFS!

Yes, it is quite amusing to think that JB would see lesbianism as a Bad Thing

I don't think you are 'picking' here Dittany because equal pay for equal work is one of the fundamental points, imho of feminism. As far as the glass cellar of traditionally men's work (trash collectors, sewage etc), I don't understand how this is relevant to the low pay of women? In any case, there is a classification criteria so that differences can be compared. It can be subjective, who/what the male comparator is, in terms of skills to address the issue of traditionally male and traditionally female jobs.

Can i interupt here, i am an academic and one of the things i look at is the relative pay of men and women. As people here rightly point out it makes no sense just to look within occupations and firms for evidence of a disparity as discrimination may operate by preventing women getting into certain jobs rather than paying them a different amount for the same ones. What I (and others do) is look at the pay gap between men and women of similar age and education. The results are quite interesting. The pay gap amongst those just leaving school or univerisity is tiny but as women and men age the gap widens. Women without children do a lot better than women with children. We also see that women do better in industries where women are able to retain their skills after child care breaks (teaching and nursing). So yes part of the gap is that we leave work to have children but part of the cost of this is due to the polcies of employers and the structre of the labour market

Disagree dittany, I was sexually abused as a child and raped at university. Whilst I was a 'victim' of these crimes, I do not find it helpful to label myself as a victim. I am a survivor of what happened to me. That does not negate the crime, it merely helps me to process what happened to me without feeling passive in the present.