Introducing my partner to feminism...

[blinder]

On the back of a spate of good feminism threads here lately I am looking for book recommendations to give to my DP as an introduction to a feminist critique of society.

He's not a particularly neanderthal man - he loves Naomi Klein for example - but he's a bit uneducated about the reality facing women today.

We have a six month old daughter and it worries us both that she is being launched into a culture that systematically de-humanises (objectifies) girls. I'm sure he would be willing to explore ways that we can parent her consciously so that she can preserve her identity in the face of damaging cultural norms.

At the same time, I don't want him to feel lectured, blamed or patronised by the book. But I would like him to be able to examine his own investment in male superiority and recognise that he does have many assumptions about women and many blind spots about male privilege.

It's a fine line.

So, books for men, fathers or people new to feminism?

Habbibu, but if we are "designed" to be like that, you can't just ignore it. It is part of what makes us. It's like the old cliche - comedians being nerds at school, developed comedy as a way to survive....

Yep, it is a shame biwi..

...but we'll survive.

I can't believe all this kicked off over a flippin book recommendations

You've lost me, Porto - v tired - which post are you replying to?

cut the a off that post before someone jumps on that

Well, there's a difference between girls wanting to be pretty for evolutionary reasons (IF that's even true) and society portraying girls as primarily objects designed to gratify men.

There's this whole Desmond Morris fallacy that cleavage is genetically designed to look like buttocks because men like doing us from behind. This is actually a theory promoted by evolutionary theorists. This type of evolutionary theory adds to the justification for stereotyping women. The subjectivity of this absurd view is (hopefully) apparent these days but it was regarded as fact in the 70s.

Evolution can so easily be quoted to blur the real issue.

If it's about the evol psych thing, it's not really a question of "ignoring" but opf questioning the premisses the science is based on - often strikes me as quite teleological, rather than strictly objective and assumes that all aspects of society are fundamentally primal; that just seems - reductionist? Apologies - i am really, really knackered and not making much sense to myself.

LeQueen that's a very gracious apology. Thank you. Have a vodka.

Same with the "men need to sow their oats" theory. Load of bull

"Well, if evolutionary biology/psychology is being used to justify defining women and girls by their looks, then yes, it matters."

I meant this one. Men are judged by their looks too.

have a non-denominational vodka

Dittany;

I am not anti-feminist...I just think women need to take alot of responsibility for male attitudes..

women don't have to become lap-dancers do they..?

If women said "we're not taking all this crap anymore" it would end wouldn't it..

...but they wont.

There's quite a body of research on rape, or "coercive sexuality", in evolutionary psychology. I think we need to be careful about the "if it's the way we are" argument.

I heard a joke once about economists (even before the current economic mess), which I think works well re-worked with evolutionary psychologists.

I don't remember all the details but...

A physicist, an engineer and an evolutionary psychologist are on a desert island. Starving. They have a tin, but no obvious means of opening it. The physicist says . The engineer says . The evolutionary psychologist says "let's assume a tin-opener"...

'women need to take alot of responsibility for male attitudes'

daftpunk is this a typo??

Well, to an extent, Porto, yes, and obv on a one to one persoanl level we all do make judgements based on looks, but on a societal level I really doi think the onus on women to look "pretty" is so, so much stronger than it is for men - look at the endless media critiques of what female MPs and MPs wives look like, actresses clothes on Oscar night etyc etc - men don't face the same instant judgements, and aren't expected to (say) wear make up in order to look professional.

Not sure....what have I spelt wrong..?

isn't that rather (dare I say it?) patronising?

that men can't be left to take responsibility for their own attitudes?

or did you mean that women shouldn't take responsibility for men's attitudes, which makes much more sense to me.

Er...it could be...

what do you think..?

now look begorrah I'm not just giving out vodkas willy nilly. You have to insult me first ffs.