Narcissitic Personality Disorder (Part 2)

[Gettingagrip]

Starting another thread for us survivors.

baggyagy - how are you? how has it gone this evening with your H?
hope you ok.

Groan. Ive been reading a lot today about healthy boundarys.Ive just realised that i am constantly thinking about people who push their luck and im constantly angry at them. The person, or the action take up a fair amount of my head space.I just need to tell them at the time.

There was a situation the other day where someone crossed a line with my dd who was present. I KNEW she felt uncomfortable , KNEW she was looking to me to resolve it, and yet i failed to. It was a busy social event, and it seemed inapropriate to make a fuss , yet i didnt need to make a fuss, i just needed to state calmly and clearly that i didnt apreciate what was said. How that person then responded was up to them wasnt it.

To clear this up a bit it involved an adult taking the piss out of my dd.Im so disapointed in myself and i feel ive really let her down, she must be really hurt. I dont want to be this pushover who allows these sorts of comments , im not much of a role model.

The problem is i think, i react emotionally to these sort of things, my heart goes fast, i get an adrenilin rush,i shake ect, there would be no calm statement, just an outburst on my part.
I think this might be why i dont react at the time, i dont trust myself to, then i fume afterwards.

This sort of thing has happened several times lateley, someone give me a kick up the arse. I know they are pushing it, its not as if i dont recognise it, i just dont know how to control myself when i respond.

Im so upset at not standing up for her i feel like crying .

Have also read a lot about introjection and projection, it explains why i always felt so narky around him, within minuites of being in his company i find myself bitching and feeling irritated, even by my own kids , cos well, im just like that aparently. Only around him .

Seems bizarre that a person can be manipulated into behaving a certain way.One of the sites suggested taking of all the labels they put onto you and examining whether they really belong to you. Here goes

Im shit in bed - Umm he has premature ejaculation so severe he comes in his pants.
Im an evil bith - He is truly evil i am not
No one else would ever put up with me - he has had few partners as he is fat and ugly. Plus he stinks.
No wonder no one likes me - i have lots of freinds, he doesnt
Im awful to live with - !!!!
Im not to be trusted - Again !!!
Im hard faced - Im not he is
Im a sexual abuser - !!!!!

I could go on and on, but as the site suggests im left with a perfect description of him.

Am kind of getting my head round him , the bulk of the rage is gone , i try to focus more on my behaviour than his as hes really not important anymore. If i could just shake this low self esteem, stop allowing people to crap on me id start to feel a whole lot better.

dignified - don't beat yourself up about it. talk to your dd about it and say you are sorry you didn't say anything and explain why, you'll feel better. if you dont want to go into details with her, just say it took you by suprise and it was difficult to think of what to say.

you responded in a panic attack sort of way - probably the same way you felt every time your DH/DP? had a go at you, called you names, put you down. so its perfectly understandable that you couldnt respond at the party.

done it myself and felt awful. but you have the answer, you already worked out what you can do / say if something similiar happens again, so don't beat yourself up, pat yourself on teh back for recognising how you felt and working out what to do if there is a next time.

trust yourself to respond, you may not get all narky with the other person as they are unlikely to react the same way your OH did, so you will be able to get your point across.

Your self esteem will grow, you have already begun the process to stop people crapping on you as you have already thought of how to respond. Just go for it!

Thanks for the reply messy, am feeling really crap tonight . Ive kept going over it and i knew instantly that i should say something but was afraid of myself exploding , i actually felt like being violent.
I either under react or over react in these situations , i realise that either reaction is fear based. Ive spoken to my counseller about this in detail, she suggests just taking a moment to take on board whats happening, that i dont need to respond straight away.

The problem is the physical impact ( god i sound like such a wuss ) my voice takes on a audiable shake and i feel that flight or fight thing to a really high degree , so that i could well over react. Its a fear reaction isnt it.

Fear of what though? " Please dont speak to my dd like that ".
" i was only joking " ,, usual response from people who,ve overstepped the mark.
Hardly heart attack stuff is it.

I suppose it is a sort of panick attack, not caused by the other persons words, but by the lack of trust , doubt in my own reaction.
Grr. I read that being exposed to highly stressfull situations can make you overly sensitive to adrenilin. After some encounters i truthfully feel like ive been drugged , i cant sleep for hours then cant get up, theres a horrible physical after effect.

Anyway, thats all a bit me me boo hoo. How is everyone else doing ?

Dignified. My H's list against me include:-

• I am basically a whore (I did cheat on him once in the early days and it was a one-off/ I learnt by my mistake etc - 11 years ago before getting married) but this has defined me ever since as a slut. End of story. Black and white. But rather than get out of the marriage years ago, he would rather 'punish me' forever.
• I am old, fat, lazy, useless, worthless (his words to me just last night). Called me an 'old hag' from the start of our marriage 11 years ago when I was still in my 30's. He is ten years younger than me so this has been one of his many weapons against me.
• I am a 'scrounger'
• I am stupid and weak
• I am an evil bitch
• No one likes me (unfortunately, I still believe this as I am quite isolated socially and so he still convinces me about this unfortunately)
• I am always the problem - I am the cause of the problems of this marriage because I failed at my first marriage. Yes, this is my 2nd marriage - 1st one - married first real boyfriend at a young age /other problems like recurrent miscarriage/grew apart after being together with him from age of 18 until early 30's etc but no abuse involved.
• I am boring and useless in bed.
• I cannot manage without him in life.
• I am not good enough socially in life as I used to be initially a bit shy with people, and this made me not worth him bothering with outside the home.
• I am crazy, mad, a nutter.
• I am just not good enough in any resect.

I think I could type this list forever. It could go on and on.

Every day living with an N is living with someone who hates, resents and dislikes you.

I am just not worthy of him, I suppose. (only joking!!!!!!)

I am lazy too!

And I am a shrieking hag...although all female singers are, so I'm in good company.

I am a pathological liar

A bully

A terrible mother

I have a personality disorder.

I am hysterical

Histrionic

everyone I work for hates me and tell him this behind my back

I have ruined his work reputaion

My friends are all bored housewives or cabaret musicians. (that's meant to be a bad thing)

I am deliberately turning the kids against him

I am responible for my sisters twenty year old shoplifting conviction even though I lived fifty miles away at the time.

I ruin peoples lives

I must be stopped

I am addicted to conflict

I have convinced all the health professionals of my sanity through "charm"

Blimey....I am She Rah!!!!!!!

Oh and....

I keep him a prisoner

I stalk him

I prevent him from working

I lost a big contract with the bbc that he had.

There's more, but I can't be arsed.

The thing that scares me is that this is him...but how far has he gone in maybe doing these things to me?

Yes. Everything is their partner's fault, apparently.

It is very irritating for my H to have to deal with the consequences of his upsetting behaviour towards me. I should just take it and accept it, no matter what he does. Just be a good girl and try my best, I suppose, to be a saint. And it is ok to do whatever he likes but if I behave the same way, that then is unacceptable.

I forgot - I am the bully and he has always been the victim.

I do not now accept his behaviour towards me but I have accepted that this is how he is, how he thinks and he will never change.

Yes it is infuriating when you start to list all the things you have been accused of over the years, only to realise now that it was describing him, not you.
My ex was so convincing and so sure of what he was telling me that, of course, I became the weak, unorganised and chaotic person he said I was. I lived in a constant state of confusion and guilt to the point that my mind was always elsewhere. It means you put your own life on hold. Stop developing your own mind, loose your ambition and zest for life. You have your soul sucked out of you.

I can see myself re-emerging now though. Have an interest in clothes and make up. Am thinking of gettng a p/t job. Want to re-engage with people.
It is a kind of rebirth isn't it? Like a phoenix rising out of the ashes! And all I had to do was stop listening to him, remove him from my life. I don't need a million years of therapy to fix myself, or a personality transplant after all - he does.

But it is shocking to look back on my relationship now and see how much damage was done to me. I was so convinced that I alone was responsible for fixing the problems so I stayed and persevered for years, fighting a loosing battle. He has never taken any responsibility for our relationship problems and of course any attempts by me to question the way he behaved have been talked back around into being my fault. He only did so and so because I had done such and such... I swear he is an absolute master at deflecting the blame or responsibility away from himself. He always makes sure he comes out of any situation looking good, usually by getting other people to do his dirty work. He has an absolute fear of being made to look stupid - of feeling shame. It is his achiles heel and I think stems from his over religious childhood where shame for having any inpure thoughts or actions was ingrained in him.

I'm mind-rambling a bit now. A big chunk of my life to reflect upon though. Trying to make sense of it all is a comfort but I'm not as consumed by it all as I was in the early days of our split. I would love to get into group therapy with other N survivors. I don't think there are any other people who would understand what I have experienced living with this man. It's why I like talking on this thread, I don't need to explain everything, you all just know.

Dementors....like in Harry Potter.

I have wanted to physically hold up a full length mirror in between him and me when he has started. Maybe one day I will have a chance to.

therealme - You are spot on. I could have written your thread. Exactly what has happened with me. But, it is still happening to an extent as I do not function, as a person, as well as I could, and what he accuses me of, can at times be true (eg not keeping on top of things at home).

It is nice to sometimes feel that you are feeling like 'yourself' again, like a real person and can actually function and be in 'the present' in life, rather than being in a confused, distracted 'daze'. This state of mind has impacted so much on my relationship with my dc over the years, and I feel very sad. It is easy to control someone who is permanently distressed, confused, worried, anxious, distracted, hurt, and the big one - 'worn down'.

I am still with my H so I know now that my progress is permanently impeded by the environment I am still in, and will continue to be as long as I am in it. But, I am not where I was a couple of years ago - but of course, if I was not still in my situation, I would now be in a much better place in myself.

But at least now, knowledge of this is some empowerment.

TRM - your third paragraph, "it is shocking to look back ... " states my own feeling exactly. Everybody in this kind of situation should re-read it until they know it by heart!! It's a bloody good reason to get out as soon as your first inkling that this is what's happening to you.

The funny thing is, people do tell you. I can't count the number of folk who described XH#2 and me as "chalk and cheese" ... before we got married. I never asked them to elaborate. And I thought I could "handle it". I know, now, that's a sure sign of the victim. I wonder how many others here had the same thought??

Unfortunately I do need a million years of therapy! Not to fix what's "wrong" with me, but to fix what's been "done" to me. Grrr! I still find it hard to look the full horror of it in the face, as it were.

But it's always easier to deal with what you can see. I'm grateful for your summary!

Very happy to see you moving forwards so surely, TRM
Here's to the Phoenix Club!

TRm, your 'other thread' had been bumped and i took a look. There is an embarrassingly bad and self-indulgent piece of poetry posted.

I thought that too. I thought I could handle his lack of reason and his bad moods.

Hi-I've been reading along but have not had time to post.
From a few pages ago...
MaggieMaeve on "the habit of NOT accepting an olive brance seems like a cold heartedness to the untrained eye"...I think this is the N playing on a presumption that good manners requires preordained responses and the N will manipulate that.

It is like when (without preamble)someone offers something with outstretched arm/hand and our reflex is to open our hand and recieve it.

You can practice-do not receive it, even if whatever it is will drop to the floor. Keep your hand at your side, touch your hips or hold your own hands for a tactile feeling that you are in control of your hands, they are not.

This transfers to verbal crap-you do not have to receive it. In my naivete, I was always shocked when people didn't/wouldn't listen to others. Basic courtesy: listen when someone is speaking to you. But there is a reason, well founded, to not listen when certain someones are speaking at you, isn't there? It is called self-defense- psychological self-defense.

There is a difference when someone is speaking "at" you as opposed to "to" or "with" you-you can feel it. I think the Ns 99% of the time are speaking "at" people.

They are just another 'talking head', like on TV...turn the channel, tune them out, don't listen. And this is the charming part of this strategy: they can not force you to listen to them. Hello ipod. I have not bought mine yet, but will soon (going to mil's in 3 weeks...)

Sorry to go on about this-but it really really helps to build some strength/control and courage.

Another visualization is the Sheriff from the Robin Hood series (the one with R Armitage ). The Sheriff goes "Bla de bla bla" when he isn't listening.

Hi Therealme: You're second paragraph above-Like a phoenix-

Yes, me too, exactly regarding my N Middle Sister.

Sorry this is long-needs background...

I have recently had contact with Middle Sister about mineral rights leasing. Our shares have been split through 4 or 5 generations and are about as big as the little toe on the hind leg of a no-see-um. My Oldest Sister and I realize we don't have knowledge or any kind of leverage to negotiate and so signed (or will sign) and believe some royalties are better than none.

However, Middle Sister called a cousin and was referred to another much older cousin that had a career in this field (retired)and he advised her to not sign it. We received the leases in August (I had to forward MS's to her and she later asked me "if I had received anything from the oil company"-I don't exist). She calls me in February and asks if I signed it, (yes), well Cousin said to not to sign it! That is all she said-don't sign and no other information about it. So superior.

She said she talked to him a long time ago and she guesses she just sat on the information and probably waited too long to tell me. Middle Sister in control, punishing me.

I replied "I don't care-what is it? $20? I don't f*ing care." And is really the truth because these 'royalties' are more of a family heritage thing than any real monetary gain- never made a car payment off of it or anything close.

My dh and I offered to buy her shares if she meant to never sign.

Yesterday I received 3 emails from her in a span of 5 minutes.
The last one said: "Oh and as a side note, I never said that was never going to sign, just wanted to make sure I* (we) were getting a fair deal." (*She left out "I".)

I (we) !!!
She has shared no information so that Oldest Sister and I could possibly get a better deal. I am not bothered by that so much as...

I parenthesis we. "(we)" are a subset of her "I". She apparently is the only one with a brain and we are dependent on her for any benefits only if she so chooses to disperse. Superiority complex in full swing. OS and I are completely invisible and summarily dismissed.

More clarity and validation that it is just not mentally healthy to be around her.
And as Pages asked a couple of years ago on the first Stately Homes thread: "Why on Earth would I put up with it?" I don't anymore. I will sign my un-negotiated leases and send them in and never speak of them again with MS.

I feel sure if royalties are realized she will call to compare checks and I will simply refer her to the informed cousin. She'll persuade, but I will say "No, MS, you are just feeding your superiority complex at my expense and I'm not participating in that any more. Bye-bye."

Wow, a book , just had to vent. Thanks if you read it.

I'm glad you are doing well, Therealme.

Hi Dignified-look up "emotional flooding". I used to(and am still working on it)freeze in the moment, just as you have described. Breathe. Give your brain a few seconds to kick in and over-ride the fight or flight instinct. Breathe. It helps get into and stay in 'adult mode'-I don't mean to offend. A comment on the content of the offensive speech might work for a start rather than focusing on the person that said it. For example, sarcastically: "Ouch-not to be mean or anything."

The word "Ouch" is my saviour! It immediately puts the focus on what was said and its hurtful nature, without being remotely hysterical. It buys me time to settle my thoughts. And is usually the end of the exchange, anyway - as the other person doesn't get the dramatic response they hoped for.

Thanks for the tip off re the other thread Maggie - yes, you are reading my ex's self indulgent poetry. I would recognise his dire prose amywhere.
Nice touch on the user name huh? karmal!!

Only a matter of time before he could resist the temptation no longer and post on that thread!
I'm not giving him any attention and it's getting to him.

Sweetexpectation -- I kind of felt pushed out of it thanks in part to exH's revelation about behaviour of his in the end. But my realisation that things were really horribly wrong and that I could do nothing about it came when pg with our 5th DC, so it took me a long, long time to figure out that he had to change, and that I had got to the point where I was a stranger to myself. I actually found myself praying one day that he would change, and saying to myself that I would give him a year and then I would strike out in my own direction if things had not improved.

The emotional detachment that that required came from the realisation that I was being slowly destroyed. (When I see women here on MN devaluing their so-called 'hormonal' state while pg and questioning their judgement and perceptions I feel like screaming at them). I think we all have deep inside us an instinct for self preservation that is stronger than we may suspect.

Things improved drastically about 6 months after the baby was born. Then a year later he told me he had cheated on me it would have happened shortly before things had improved greatly, when the baby was only a few months old . I have reason to believe the story he spun for me was not the truth, but instead a plausible reason he had come up with for a rash that he had developed right before the 'confession'. After that, I found dribs and drabs on the computer that revealed he had an 'inner life' I would never have suspected none of which he ever admitted to me; he would only act sheepish and not really respond to questions if and when I confronted him about the porn. Some of the stuff (gay porn) I found I never told him about, just waited for him to talk to me about it, while in the meanwhile he pontificated at me about the need to go for counselling, how desperate he was to do marriage counselling, blah blah. I kept what I knew under my hat, and he never mentioned it. I knew he was living a lie and it gave me power he didn't know I had to resist the pressure to sweep his confession under the rug sometimes he was apologetic and sometimes very impatient for me to get over myself. (In the end he accused me of being out of my mind, having OCD his mother helpfully sent him info on this that she found online for him...) I now consider the infidelity and the subsequent discoveries I made to have been some sort of gift to me, hard as they were to deal with at the time. I wasn't groping around in the dark any more. I had permission (which I needed to give myself, sadly) to think in terms of Me and I.

If I hadn't been able to detach emotionally (and this was hard because it meant saying goodbye to my old life, my sense of who I was and my role in the world, and my idea of what the future was supposed to hold) I don't think I could have resisted. I also had to admit to myself the full reality of what had been going on for so long. I did a huge amount of reading and I had three fabulous sessions with a therapist that left me feeling completely validated. I also went to domestic abuse counselling for about a year on the therapist's recommendation, and did even more reading that they recommended.

For years I had put up with his treatment of me and even minimised it with 'well at least I know he would never cheat on me because he's totally uninterested in sex' . gaaaagh. Says it all, sadly. Finding the gay stuff was what gave me the ultimate push towards drawing a line under the 'marriage' and moving on. That and sitting in my midwife's office explaining why I needed every std test in the book and any more she could think of. So if he hadn't crossed the final line, I might still be there, or maybe I would have rallied what was left of my backbone and done what needed to be done 'just' on the basis of how he treated me day in and day out. I try not to judge myself about how long I 'let' things go on for. I did my best -- have to learn to really believe that, I'm at about 80% these days.

Hi Everyone,

I've been reading this thread with much interest, there seems to be so much strength and wisdom here, I wondered if you might be able to offer me some help/support/advice please?

I'm afraid that I am going to have to be a bit vague with details, as I fear being outed, but basically, DH has told me a string of what I though were weird, but generally pointless over the course of our relationship.

I have caught him pretty much red handed on numerous occasions and he has swiftly turned the blame onto me - denying everything and then when I push the issue, calling me 'obsessed' and 'paranoid'.

Recently, I caught him out in the most horrendous, elaborate and far reaching deception. It wasn't an OW situation, but is basically similar to the 'man gets sacked from his job, can't tell his wife, pretends to go to work in the mornings and instead sits on park bench all day' cliche. Except the facts of the situation are far, far more serious.

He had no choice but to come clean, we have decided to try to repair the relationship, and he is very keen to get professional help to do so, so we are off to Relate.

The common trait that runs through all the lies is that they all relate to issues that might dent his 'perfect' image. I feel that he is trying to manipulate my perception of him by creating a barrier between us that keeps me from seeing the real (and imperfect) person that he is.

I have tried on many occasions to reassure him that I know that he has erected this barrier, that I can see straight through it, and that I do love the real him, warts and all. He just refuses to admit that he has lied and insists that it is all in my head.

From reading this thread, I feel that he is showing a lot of the traits of NPD, what do you think?

Do you have any suggestions as to how to handle this when we are in therapy? How should I approach it? I really hope we can fix this, as aside from this there really is a lot of good in the relationship, he isn't emotionally abusive, but I believe is trying to somehow protect my feelings. How can I get through to him?

What you're going through sounds truly horrible, a real nightmare.

If he has a problem like NPD, it can't be fixed by relationship counselling. It affects the relationship but it's not an issue arising from it. He will need to go to psychological counselling on his own before the two of you can even start on repairing the relationship. "We" can't fix it -- it's up to him to get real and work on himself. You can't do this for him.

Turning things around and accusing you of all sorts of being deeply flawed and out of line when he knows well that he is the one at fault and is a liar is emotional abuse in my book. He is not trying to protect your feelings if he is blaming you for standing up for yourself and insisting on honesty from him. He is trying to protect himself and his precious self-image, which he is putting before you and his relationship with you in order of importance every time he tries to shift the blame.

Thanks for your response mathanxiety, there is so much truth in what you say

Actually, when the news first broke, I insisted that he see a psychologist to try to get to the bottom of this. He (quite uncharacteristically) agreed and went to his GP who refferrd him to the local mental health team. They have just fobbed him off on the basis that he is not actually 'properly mentally ill, although I disagree.

Do you know where he might be able to get some help? Might Relate be able to point him in the right direction?

I know deep down that you are right when you say that it does amount to EA. I am trying to be optimistic about the future though. I think this recent situation has actually frightened him. He came within a heartbeat of losing literally everything (including his liberty) so he can no longer really deny that there is a problem.

I fear though, that as per usual, he will only admit to that which I can prove, and we will never get to the bottom of all the other lies that he has told.

So worried.