Narcissitic Personality Disorder (Part 2)

[Gettingagrip]

Starting another thread for us survivors.

Such fantastic posts just lately.

Saddest -- I got the sent to coventry thing for about a year before ex finally found a place of his own and moved out, and afterwards when he would show up unexpectedly to casually ask the DCs if they wanted to go out anywhere with him (haha, they never did...) But while we were living together, under the same roof, he would walk past me as if I didn't exist, would not answer me if I said anything, or make eye contact with me. If he wanted to ask me anything, he would just bark it out. I learned to ignore him just as he ignored me. It went against my nature and it nearly killed me to act like him.

I think Ns are emotionally tied to us just as much when they devalue us as when they are seeming to value us. They need to hurt. They need engagement. The one thing that they cannot cope with is indifference.

I agree, it's so hard to understand that the people we're dealing with are bottomless pits. There's nothing that could prepare you for someone like this; neither childhood experience or childhood inexperience of dealing with an N could prepare anyone for dealing with the hypocrisy, the double think, the horror of being punished for trying your best to love. We are all persistent and strong women, committed to doing the right thing, it seems. We got sucked into black holes. It really is like living in a coma, TRM.

Help please.............
OH came and picked me up from work today. He said he wanted to talk.
Basically he says he cant carry on not knowing whats going on. He says he wants to come back and soon or thats it, I will never see him again.
I do panic I must admit.
He says that breaking up has shown our children a bad example !! It has shown them that we give up too easily !!
I was so angry ! Given up ! We have been together for 18 years !!!!!!
Given up !!!!! I have forgiven him hundreds of times. I forgave him when I gave birth alone to dd2 because he didnt want to come to the hospital ! I forgave him when he didnt even come to visit her or pick me up !!
I have forgiven him for every family day out he hasnt bothered to come too, for the 7 years he hasnt worked becuase he is " ill " . Yet when I said all this he told me I was dragging the past up.
He refused to admit he has stopped me going out in the past or having friends. He said that my actions have led to his suspision so its my own fault.

Lastly he says that he will never stop smoking weed. That basically he wants to carry on and I am blowing it all out of proportion. He said he would never do anything to put us in trouble wit the police but just having it in the house is enough !! He says I am believing propaganda and that it is just a natural plant. I have told him I refuse to have it in the house and he has said he wont give up so I am giving him no choice. No !! Isnt he giving me no choice !
I am so confused. He has he ability to turn all my arguments round till I dont know where I am anymore.

Math...that has answered todays question....
If they have no empathy, how come they are so good at causing so much distress? They understand distress don't they?

I read that they actually want us to be in their lives, more than they want anyone else, but don't know how to achieve that intimacy in a normal way.

Forthebest..... If you look up personality disorders...which I'm sure you have....drug and alcohol dependency are almost always part of the equation. Self medication if you like.

Funny, h's brother was a heroin addict...found dead in his flat, living the full drug addict life. My sister and her oh abuse drugs, she always has as long as I can remember. My mum definitely has borderline personality disorder.

It spreads hell to all concerned.

My pc has been disabled by vista picking up keylogging software. Once again, my instincts prove correct. Didn't get him very far did it, if I can't use the pc.There aint nothing to log.

Jeez, What did I say, it's not funny at all. in any way. It's fucking horrible.

mathanxiety-my H has constantly used the stonewalling/ignoring the whole time with me. Yes, it nearly kills me to try to be like him. It is not in my nature either, but then he is sadistic. That, together with the neglectfulness and even more effective, I find, is the indifference.

FTBA, You are sounding like someone who is seeing through the twisted logic all the same, and that's the first important step towards freedom. It's completely expected and normal to panic -- flooding is our natural reaction to exposure to a toxic threat when it happens frequently. You know what the truth is, and you've just posted it. It's like Alice Through The Looking Glass. Don't be harsh on yourself for feeling so flustered and paralysed when he launches an attack like this. None of this is a reflection on you, it's all to his shame, not yours.

He is clearly fighting hard right now, because he knows you're slipping through his grip. You've found the cracks and the tighter he squeezes you, the further through the gaps you'll be pushed. The more you hear of the twisted logic and the more you realise how upside down and inside out he is the more power you have. He knows you have all the power, FTBA. That is why he is so adamant and unreasonable and coming on so strong. That is why he has demanded all these 'talks' in the recent past, why he is monitoring you and, let's face it. sounding and acting so desperate.

Have you told Women's Aid any of this?

Try to take a deep breath and say some stock phrase of a neutral kind when he whacks you over the head with all his ridiculous raving. You are under absolutely no obligation to agree to anything or even to engage with him in any kind of discussion. Don't argue or try to tell him the way things really are -- it's the road to serious mental problems. Something like "It's interesting you see things that way..." (voice training off)
"I'll have to do a bit of thinking about your perspective on all of this...." 'That's an interesting interpretation of events.."
"You've clearly been doing a lot of thinking about that.."
"Is that how you feel about X or Y or Z event, hmmmm..."
or the old "Sorry you feel that way about..."
and the very useful "Ouch" for a direct accusation
are all non-committal answers to a tirade that let him know you've heard him out, but they tell him too that you've moved on and can't be bothered engaging with him or rehashing everything. When you've said your stock phrase, stop talking. Let him have the floor. Keep on stonewalling to the best of your ability. Remember, he is not interested in your feelings or the truth. He is using you as a walking, talking punch bag and talking to himself, basically.

FTBA, I got all of the same speech in various different forms from my ex. The carrot and the stick, the guilt and the promises. They have some sick manual somewhere with a script in it.

It sounds as if he wants to pin some sort of blame on you for the breakup of the relationship which he senses is occurring -- he can rationalise a rejection only if it seems you pushed him away for an unfair reason (in his opinion) like refusing to allow his weed habit in the house. He won't accept the truth that he drove the relationship into the ground, no matter how hard you try to convince him. Everyone else will see and understand, however. I really recommend you go to WA and tell them all. You will feel incredibly validated, sane and peaceful when you see that people in RL 'get it'.

You don't need any help, FTB, you're already seeing through his balderdash

It's normal to feel angry and upset, give yourself a break. I don't understand why he says he doesn't know what's going on, though. Is this supposed to be a temporary separation??

"breaking up has shown our children that we give up too easily"
Err, you've shown them that a healthy home life does not include being bossed around, insulted and frightened. You've given them an important lesson in human rights. That's not bad parenting or giving up!

He chose to say "giving up" because he wants to make you see your triumph as a failure. In fact, you have given up being abused by him.

"I have forgiven him hundreds of times. Yet when I said all this he told me I was dragging the past up."
Whether you forgave him or not is irrelevant. What happened was that you allowed him to use you, to abuse you, and allowed his cruelty, hundreds of times.

Of course he'd prefer it if you didn't remember those times, because then he could go back to using you like a bill-paying slave.

"I have told him I refuse to have weed in the house and he has said he wont give up so I am giving him no choice."
Read that again. It means you said "Home or weed - you choose." He's saying he chooses the weed. Simple.

You gave him a choice. He chose.

The reason these exchanges seem confusing to you, FTB, is because you're suffering a form of PTSD. Nothing in what he says, or does, looks confusing to me. But you have been primed, over 17+ years of this shite, to go into confused mode as soon as he starts up. Just like an ex-soldier, who freaks out whenever a door slams, you're suffering an uncontrollable reaction caused by intense & prolonged fear.

This is why we say you need to END contact with such people - you need to regain your sense of logic, and to neutralise that person's effect on you. He picked you up tonight because he wants to see whether he can still play you (yes) and, if so, to step up the pressure.

Please remember he doesn't want you back: the person you are, with all your loveable qualities. He wants his cushy life back. As long as there's a chance of getting back his obedient slave, he'll keep trying to 'work' you. It's easier than training a new one.

I'm sure you can find plenty of reading material about Complex PTSD and PDSD. Here's on page at BullyOnLine.

My ex accuses me of having 'ignored' him for years. He says it is abuse.
I didn't ignore him but I did emotionally detach myself for my own protection.

Lundy Bancroft writes about how an abuser will blame you for the impact of their behaviour. He says that if an abuser drives you away with his verbal assaults and then tells you that your emotional distancing is causing his abuse then he is reversing cause and effect.

In other words, messing with your head. This is something I can relate to so very much.

FTBA, Grace is right. He really misses what's familiar. That's why when he says he can't carry on not knowing what's going on he's telling you the real truth. He is on the back foot here, FTBA. He doesn't want you, personally, he's completely at a loose end, a duck out of water, with you not constantly available for abuse.

FTBA, have you read the Lundy Bancroft book, Why Does He Do That?

Maths and Grace you are spot on.
FTBA you are being brainwashed here. He is playing you. He has conditioned you into this confused reaction. He is confusing you with his version of logic in order to maintain control and power.
But....you are beginning to question his logic now. You are arming yourself with information and this knowledge won't go away!
Keep arming yourself.
Keep posting on here. All of the posters on this thread know what he is doing too - it is a familiar pattern to us.
You are not confused, you are a normal, emotionally healthy woman who has a normal and healthy grip on life. Don't forget that!

thank you so much. Sometimes I feel like I am going slightl insane. He really makes me feel like actually I am a difficult and unreasonable woman. I mean really, why is it so unreasonable to be expected to be the sole breadwinner and run the dc round everywhere and basically psy for everyone and everything !!.!!!!!!!!!

grace I think he thinks it is a temporary seperation becuase I have led him to believe that. When he left I was too afraid to tell him we were over for good and I will be honest that I am still afraid. I am being unfair. You couldnt be more right that I am conditioned. That is exactly how I feel. I am afraid that letting him go is a mistake as he does nothing but declare undying, suffocating love for me.As soon as he says he is off for good I am so scared. But on the other hand when he is actually in the same room as me I could scream as I want him to go. ???My own mind is conflicting !!! I think I am in love with how we could/should be and Im so terrified that he will go off and be this with someone else. Im pathetic arent I.

I know he has chosen weed over us. But he says it is ME that is wrong for making him choose in the first place. To be honest I know lots of people that smoke it and hold down respectable responsible jobs. But IM not happy having it smoked or growing in my home where my dc are and surely I have a right to feel that ?

Hope you don't mind if I enter this topic. It helps to gain insight into what I lived through. It's been 2 yrs now since I separated from my ex-n, and l am still recovering from the 17yrs of mental abuse he heaped upon me. Only in hindsight did I see it though,as while in the marriage I lived his reality, his way or the highway. Hard to explain but I questioned my own sanity, my own reasoning,i lost my self-esteem, never felt I lived up to his expectations, never good enough. I get yelled at for having my own opinion, especially in the beginning, of course that got lost upon the way. Worn down and worn out to the extent I had nothing left to give. Felt like an empty shell. With no family around and 3 kids to look after I was very isolated. If I spoke to friends I was been disloyal and disrespectful. And boy, would I get it if I spoke "in the wrong tone of voice" to him. He refused to help out around the house as it was beneath him. Woman's work and he had strong opinions on a woman's place. He was happy for me to work outside the home too for all of his ideas. He was also a very angry man, holes in the wall, never hit but I now know there's other forms of abuse. Financially he destroyed us as he only deserved the best of everything and wasn't prepared to wait. He had a very high sense of entitlement. There is a thousand stories to tell but there's no point. I put up with it, I accepted it, more fool was I. It was like living in a fog, especially towards the end and now I feel ashamed and angry I let myself down so much. Why was I such a fool and for such a long time? I was educated, had a career. To be honest, although I knew things couldn't have carried on the way they were and we were heading for a separation, it was an affair that eventually ended us. He found himself another man's wife and she knew how to appreciate him, gave him the respect he deserved, they had lots in common. To give us any hope of saving the marriage I insisted he give up this other woman, that was my bottom line. He wouldn't give her up and why didn't I understand it was a difficult situation for him. So that was that, after 17 stupid years of loyalty and giving. In the end I moved myself and the kids back to my parents town as we were left with nothing. I am glad to say I don't miss him at all but I don't like been on my own. I would love to be in a relationship with a kind, loyal, loving man. Now, my ex tells me I am puting him through hell as I have taken the kids away from him. I'm the bad person now. He wasn't even prepared to babysit his own kids, always wanted them in care when he was off and I was working. He needed to play his golf, go away hiking, go fishing and have an affair as he was depressed and foung it hard to cope with the kids. I wasn't been understanding enough to his needs.
Anyway, it's good to read other peoples's stories as it helps me understand the whole horrible, confusing business. I'm glad I out, although it's hard on my own with the kids. Need to get my sense of humour back and learn how to have fun again. Time I guess.......Good luck all.

I have read the book Math yes. Its confusing though becuase OH never calls me names, or critcises the house or the way I do things with the kids etc.
He just seems to want to be an eternal teenager that doesnt work, smokes weed and lounges about all day.
He wants physical affection and sex all the time. If I didnt hug him enough or sit n the same sofa or read a book he would sulk and get angry. Sex became a huge deal. He wanted it all the time and I was so resentful and angry I just wasnt interested. This then became his fuel as to why I was off shagging the whole world !!!!!
He keeps telling me now that I was his best friend and he has lost me etc. There is never any mention of the kids though which I find weird.Its allabout me !!

Its so tiring/He says he needs the weed and willnever give up. I need to find the guts from somewhere.

Forthebestagain - sorry to butt in on this thread but I just wanted to say this. It seems to me that it's not because you're in love with him or the idea of him that you're unwilling to tell him straight that it's over.

Do you think that, even on a subconscious level, it could be the fact that he has hinted or even stated outright that he would just go away and not see the DC?

I saw your other threads and that was the most manipulative and awful part for me. It's just so shocking that any man could threaten just to disappear and not see his children.

As others have said, you've been conditioned to take responsibility for things. So whether you realise it or not, you are probably feeling responsible in advance for this happening. Hence your inability to tell him that it is definitely over.

Now you can't necessarily overcome that overnight, but you need to know:

A good parent would drag themselves over hot coals, broken glass or anything you'd care to name for 5 minutes with their child. You would in fact be offering reasonable and good access to the DC.

For him to turn that down is entirely his choice. Nobody else's, particularly not yours. He's a grown-up. You could be off having affairs with the entire England rugby team and he would have to accept that his marriage was over but that he would get reasonable access to his DC.

As it is, you have done nothing wrong whatsoever. He is responsible for himsefl and what he does now.

Mirium you have just repeated my life back at me. I'm quite shocked actually - I have written all of your post, here, on this thread.
17 years married,
never living up to his expectations,
his way or the highway,
worn down and worn out with 3 dc,
no family around and isolated,
refusing to do 'women's work',
angry - damaging the home,
only deserved the best of everything,
wasn't prepared to wait,
strong sense of entitlement,
destroyed us financially,

My goodness we would have a lot to talk about over a large glass of gin....

Forthebest, you know the only fear you have is the fear of the unknown. He has led you to believe that you are dependent on him. You have spent so long living your life through him that you are, as yet, unaware that you can live your life independently of him.
This is why I stayed in my marriage for so long. For many years I fantasised about leaving my h and living independently of him. But I was chained to him by an invisible bond called 'dependence'. My mind was not my own because he owned it. He lived rent free in my head. He had control of my thoughts and therefore my actions.

So what changed things for me?
I started a thread on my home site here in Ireland. I wasn't looking for sympathy but just a need to tell the truth about how dismal my life had turned out. People began telling me I was not a bad person. They told me about emotional abuse. One very treasured poster pointed me in the direction of the NPD sites.
Slowly I began to see that everything might not actually be my fault entirely, and this gave me courage.
I then spoke out loud for the first time ever about the realities of my marriage. I told my sister and my Mum, and they weren't surprised. I went to Women's Aid and I found a substitute Mum who didn't need me to prove anything. I would start to tell her a story about my h and she would finish it for me. She knew! Slowly and surely it began to dawn on me that I wasn't the wife from hell but my h was an abusive man.
It was an eye opener and took some time to reconcile with, but it gave me more courage.

What influenced me most was the telling of how my dc would suffer if I did not do something to change my life. I brought these children into the world - I owed it to them to make their lives happy. They needed a happy and strong Mum and I wasn't fulfilling my duty to them. Neither was I living my life in the way that it was destined. I was wasting it in unhappiness. I didn't want to go to my deathbed regretting that I hadn't lived my life as I had wanted to - does that make sense?

In the end I went the legal route - as that was the only thing that would make him sit up and listen - I went to court and applied for a safety order based on his verbal abuse and tendency to smash and break things in the throws of a rage. My Mum flew over to support me when I served him with his court hearing and he moved out. He knew when he had been exposed, his shame sent him packing.

It doesn't happen overnight. You need to find some real life support to make it real. But it can be done. In the meantime I will be here on this thread to gently nudge you in the right direction everytime you start to question your sanity and resolve. I know that you are finding it hard, I know that you are feeling weak. I lived your life, remember?

I've just joined, 2nd post but I'm shocked and relieved at the same time. All these stories are so familiar, it'scary. These Mr Charmings, like one friend said - showponies. How good are they? I am separated now after 17 yrs but still trying to get closure on it all.
itsgraceagain when you wrote - you need to regain your sense of logic. It just hit me, the sense of confusion, the bewilderment, the not understanding and then thinking there was something wrong with me. That somehow my thoughts, feelings were all twisted,were wrong because they were different from his. My logic was not the same as his. But, he was so good at convincing me, so good with words, so smooth, he could twist the meanings, before I know it I was defending myself, and I'm thinking - How the hell did it end up like this? What just happened? After years of this and more, I think you just automatically put up the barriers, conversation is pointless up because he doesn't want your opinion, just his repeated back. And you get so tired of it all, in the end you don't even care so long as he leaves you alone. How do you get your logic back after that? How do you find yourself again and does the sadness go?
therealme you nailed it when you said you emotionally detached yourself to protect yourself. You had too. I did too, just didn't realise it. Now, I understand a bit better. Thanks.

Is there a 'name' for the type of abusive man who can use words alone to control and confuse?
The man who can rewrite your history, tell you what you are thinking/feeling and why?
The man who can rephrase your opinion or sentence to give it a meaning that you never intended?
The man who can use words alone to leave you in such a state of confusion that you have to agree with him because your own words have lost all credible meaning?
The man who can just talk you into believing that what you just said was amatuer in relation to his explanation?

There must be a name for this type of person - I was married to him! - he was the master of spin when it came to discussing anything that I attempted to put into words out of my head.
He literally talked me into confusion and submissiveness.

Yesterday evening I had another insight into my H's take on life. In addition to convincing me for years that there is no such thing as love, and people in partnership do not really love each other, it is rubbish. Now, there is a new one. I should not expect to be happy. I should just expect to 'settle down' into everyday life and forget all this 'happiness rubbish'.

I am trying to take the approach that all his twisting and manipulation of my thoughts and beliefs is 'bull....'. It is hard though when he picks on my weaknesses in life - of which I have many (according to him).

FTBA, may I suggest that next time he comes to pick you up from work, you decline the lift, and if he says "I want to talk", say "I don't want to talk". You see, it's not about what he wants or what he's telling you to do any more. Just because he is there with a car does not mean you have to get in it. Just because he wants something does not mean you must comply. Just because he starts an argument does not mean you have to engage in it. You would never win the argument even if you did win it, if you see what I mean; because if you were the greatest rhetorician on the face of the planet, he would never acknowledge that you had scored a point. (Enormously liberating the day I admitted that to myself. I believe in logic and discussion, but it doesn't work when one of you has a whole new take on reality.)

The good news is that you do not have to persuade him of anything. You are the one in the position of strength. Even if he were right - and you know he isn't - you don't have to let him back into your life.

Anyone remember the scene in Salem's Lot, where the little boy is knocking on the window and his brother wants to let him in but knows he's a vampire? You are in that house; he is that vampire knocking on the window, looking like someone you used to love. Do not let him in, because he will suck the life out of you, more slowly but just as surely as any movie monster.

Welcome Mirium. I've been away from my xn for 2 years and 8 months. On the 4th of July it will be 3 years. My Independence day. I love the symbolism of that.

TRM, "The man who can rephrase your opinion or sentence to give it a meaning that you never intended?". My x was a master at this. It was like arguing with Insanity personified. He also rewrote my history to make me a loser and a quitter. I had never done well at school, but I had been musical and artistic, had friends, enjoyed life, had a succession of fairly good jobs. But he re-wrote that as my being a loser and a quitter and my parents despairing of me. He kept telling me that my parents must despair of me.

It is such a relief not to have to waste hours and hours trying to reason him that some tiny normal course of action has no ulterior motive or sinister interpretation.

My x dismantled my life around me, I resigned from a well-paid job for peace from his nagging coercion. I tried to apply for other jobs nearer by and he kicked off. He left me with almost no money. He complained that the house (his house) was dirty that the dinners weren't nice enough, that I couldn't drive. I was a lazy, dirty, quitter. I used to yell back at him 'at least people like me and I have friends unlike you'. He'd say that I only had friends because they didn't know the real me. Which he apparently did. Like TRM's x, he was fairly open about hating me, but he didn't want to let go either. Ripping apart my life, and shredding me and putting me on the defensive all the time was his coping mechanism.

There are a few people on the cusp of splitting up now. Autumnlight and Forthebest....

Autumn your x can't be happy so if you are happy around him that would be intolerable. Sorry for repeating myself, I know I've said this before, but I remember saying to TRM a good while ago, that after I left my x I was so pleasantly surprised by how I could enjoy just sitting in the garden reading the paper with a cup of tea. That simple thing became a massive pleasure when I knew he was finally out of my life (insofar as it's possible when we have children). But I felt a calmness, which wasn't calmness actually, it was for the first time in 8 years I didn't feel anxious and that lack of anxiety and nothing more felt like an intense high.

By therealme Thu 18-Mar-10 01:06:52 your entire post there is the most accurate and concise explanation of my relationship I have ever read. I'm going to write that down and keep it and memorise it. It will be useful.

Occasionally somebody asks me what was so bad about it (the relationship) and I find that I am either struck dumb because I don't know where to start or I come across sounding very dramatic (just how he would have described me) but your summary sounds so calm. I don't want to get into the individual stories about taking beds apart with screwdrivers at 12 midnight to make people understand!, but I do want some people to understand. Some people are so lucky, they have zero experience of this and they really can not imagine what you mean when you say your x was a control freak who messed with your head! I'm not going to recite this like a robot with a string. I just want to have it tucked up my sleeve for when I need it.

Right, off for a long 5 mile walk now while the dc are at school.

Yes, TRM, they're called "politicians"

Maggiespy - yes, I understand how you must feel now. On the 'rare' occasion I do not feel anxious and literally enjoy what I would call a 'simple pleasure' in life (some kind of contentment), it is fantastic. So, yes, I would like to have the ability and mental freedom to feel like this generally more in life, rather than just the odd 'snatched' moment. I suppose, even though I know I can never progress more than a small amount while I am still in this, I suppose for me, when I feel that everything that I was as a person was destroyed, I need to just take a tiny step on the ladder to give me some confidence, and to realise that my brain does not have to be 100% consumed by 'him' (which it has been for years).

And, maybe like others want, the thing I want most in life again is 'my peace of mind' - which I have not had since I married him, and it is a precious thing.

One of my H's latest proclamations to me - 'As you have ruined my life, I am going to destroy yours and make you suffer for a long time and I am going to make you much more unhappy than you are'.

How nice.