Can you tell if your DH is having, or about to have an affair?

[loves2walk]

I'm worried that my DH may be about to embark on an affair. 6 months ago he confessed to me that he was attracted to a woman he works with. I had been concerned about this woman as they share a love of football, support the same team and sometimes travel to away matches together. I have tried to be cool and supportive about them going to matches but it has made me feel jealous and threatened. I would never have wanted to forbid them going together as I felt he deserved trust and me to be grown-up about their friendship.

But 6 months ago, he went out for drinks after work, it ended up just the 2 of them and they admitted to each other that they were attracted to one another. He then came home and confessed to me, in a very drunken state, that they'd had this conversation but had agreed not to act on it. The day after this confession we went on holiday for 2 weeks and I watched him like a hawk - there was no text or email contact with her and he reassured me it was nothing, and nothing would come of it. So we moved on (though I was hurt and suspicious). But he is now changing. I feel he is much less affectionate with me, he is extremely critical of me and almost nags me about all the things I haven't done in the house. He has started going to the gym 3 times a week, taking more care over his appearance and trying to loose weight and just seems distant with me. I am away next week with the kids, he is alone in the house and I can almost sense that something is going to happen with her. I can't talk to him about my suspicions as he would be defensive, he called me 'pathetic' last time I mentioned I was worried about them. Does this sound like an affair waiting to happen?

As an aside: WhenwiilI - where did you find your counsellor? I still have various issues and as time goes on and they do not fade / I cannot solve them so think some individual visits (and hopefully eventually some work with H, if I can persuade him) would be really good.

Given your experience and what you say about your H I wish I had found someone that good when we tried it, but as it was we both vowed after a single Relate session with dreadful woman to never go again.

Abedelia - I think counselling would be an absolutely brilliant idea for you. I often think of you, you know.

When H went for counselling, he just struck lucky and found a brilliant local woman (private practitioner) who, as it turned out, specialised in infidelity and had read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. She came at this from the perspective that affairs happen in good and happy marriages - and she was great for my H. Understandably (from an ethical viewpoint), she wouldn't see me on my own or us as a couple.

When I hit the point you're describing, I went to find my own counsellor, but unfortunately, I wasn't as lucky. It became evident pretty quickly that although the woman I saw was undoubtedly a good general counsellor, she didn't have much experience of infidelity and she had some "old beliefs" about affairs only happening in marriages that are unhappy. She'd never read Shirley Glass either. After 4 sessions, I felt that I was educating and helping her to understand affairs and that I was paying her for that privilege!

I don't think I need that help any more, but I've always felt that for you, you got less in the way of answers and discussion from your H - and I've never had the impression that your H really "got" this - I remember that text of his to his friend that you intercepted, where he seemed to be underplaying the significance of what he'd done.

So, in your shoes, I would screen a future counsellor very carefully, by asking them to tell you their experience of treating couples/individuals in an infidelity crisis, and asking them what their perspective is
on why affairs happen.

You may have also seen a post I wrote recently about a report I've read that concludes that a more interventionist approach is required for infidelity counselling. Unfortunately from what I've seen on these boards alone, that sounds pretty rare in this country - and I'm not sure how much CPD Relate counsellors undertake - there are specialised Relate courses about treating infidelity, but for all I know, these courses might be peddling the same old messages about infidelity that possibly you, (and definitely I) want to scream about on these boards!

there are good and bad counsellors out there and some that you may just not gel with.
We had a good one - but i still feel she was not 'hard' enough on h. And he says this too.

I would also agree that until a man 'admits' and accepts what he has done the healing just wont happen.

By leaving it to 'fester' for a while only makes it worse - sometimes we woman are our own worst enemy.

It did take my h far too long to finally realise all this and make the necessary changes. He was lucky i was still willing to give it a go - i had already started divorce proceedings.
It made it much harder to go back than if he had come to his senses sooner.

However you cannot make anyone do anything until they are ready - it is a difficult time and there really is no way to 'play' it.
Just make sure you get what you need at every stage as it is so much harder to bring these things up at a later date.

Having said that we still discuss certain issues now - and we both think we could have done things a lot better.

Yes Happy Woman - I remember that I also thought my H's counsellor didn't challenge him as much as he needed, but fortunately, I was well and truly up to that job!

He was an open book about the sessions - and he often went back to her with talking points that had arisen from our sessions as a couple.

Sorry Abedelia - H googled counsellors for our area and having read a few profiles online - and phone screening a few, he decided on her. She recommended the counsellor I went to see, but as stated before, she was the wrong one for me.

Thanks all - I'll do a bit of screening. He does understand quite a bit about what went wrong and often says he is now becoming a 'better person' for me and our relationship eg there are situations where previously he would have been extremely selfish but I can almost see him counting to ten then winding down and saying something reasonable that takes my feelings into account, too...

So he does know selfishness and the desire for escapism when he was unsure about a move and job change had a lot to do with it, coupled with sheer opportunity (I saw that he even told her once in an email that he had all he should need in life - he just wanted more). But there are other things I need him to get - he can't understand at all why I need all the details, for instance (so I need someone who can spell this out as normal), or why I hate the face the subject is mostly taboo, when we used to talk about everything... Not that I want to bring it up every day over breakfast but needing to know I could would be good! Anyway, enough thread hijack. Thanks wise ladies!

loves2walk, how are you doing??

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A lot has changed since we got back home at the weekend. I was hoping to post earlier but have not had peace at the computer till now. I spent the first day back not making eye contact with DH, being distant and in my own world, not as a strategy but because I was feeling as though so much of my trust had gone, I had gone into protection mode. By the end of the week away, I wasn't quite as frightened by the 'what if's' and had worked through a way in my head of me and DSs moving out the family home to a place of calm. That gave me real strength, not that I knew where the money was coming from to finance this move or anything practical like that, but that emotionally I felt able to go and be strong enough to say enough's enough. So I avoided all conversation that first day back and then in bed that night it became obvious that i had things to say. So I explained that he had been distant and emotionally unavailable to me for weeks and hyper-critial of little and bigs things that I did and aggressive and shouty with the DC and really not pleasant to live with. There were so many real incidents to mention that would have sounded very small on their own but certainly painted a picture when put together. i said that it wasn't how I wanted to bring up children, that I wanted more love in my life and care and affection. And that DS1 was scared of him and felt threatened by him and at 9yrs of age that was unacceptable. Well, at any age of course, but I said I thought this could cause mental health problems in the future if it continued and then we would both be to blame, him for doing it and me for not protecting him enough by leaving. All took several hours to say and DH was crying and I just continued till I was done. I think it helped that we were in a dark room, in bed by the time we started, think that was at 10pm, but by midnight all was said and I was exhausted. Think whenwilli had said - keep it to what was in the open domain - that was really helpful, I just stuck to facts that could not be disputed so as not to muddy the waters with denials. I didn't mention my biggest fear of an affair, but it would have diluted my message so much if I had - I was worried that it would just result in denials, and a pushing back on me as being suspicious and then I would be seen as the person eroding trust. So that was never mentioned and is still in back of my mind. BUT, there was complete acceptance of wrong in behaviour, aggression, tears over effect on DS1 and me and I felt he truly took responsibility that it was him acting that way not anyone else pushing him into it. He was terribly upset, really seemed distressed at how he had made us feel and said he knew that he was doing it at the time but couldn't seem to stop himself. There were no excuses about the stress of moving house or stress of work or anything else. He wishes to never be like it again and I believe he is genuine. I think he is battling with some demon alright, he may be on the edge of a mental health crisis. He explained that he felt he had gone into himself and couldn't get out in the last few weeks. That nothing was reaching him, he was just inside and unable to do anyhting that would get him out.

The next day was great, like we had connected again and as though he had remembered what it was like to care about others and take them into account in decisions.

Of course I still have some pretty odd behaviours in my mind to explain and real lies that were told in relation to this woman. There is no doubt in my mind that boundaries were crossed by him, I'm just not sure how recently, how far and how much it meant/still means to him. A strong feeling I am left with is that he is not entirely trustworthy but I know when I CAN trust him, like now he is being genuine, but I don't know when I CAN'T trust him, or when he has not been truthful so there are large gaps for me. I also feel really angry with her - DH is her boss - they not only work closely together they share this love of a football team - and she crossed a line. I am cross with him too for making himself so vulnerable but the way she tried to be so friendly with me and DSs until the point when all this was raised by me, makes me feel really wary of her. This idea of 'friends of a marriage' is interesting. As soon as it was all out in the open, she stopped all contact. Maybe the power she felt she had over DH went, as she could not continue with this fantasy in her mind of having a special place in his life, because I had let her know that I knew and obviously didn't really see her as any real threat as I was so calm and accepting of it. Well I hope that burst her little fantasy bubble and left her feeling diminished. Because far from not seeing her as any real threat, I have spent the last few weeks imagining my previously happy marriage fall to pieces all because she crossed that line.

So now we me and DH are talking again, sexual again, close emotionally again. I'm not naive enough to think this is all over and it may be that we are only in a kind of temporary remission but atleast it's good for now and I'm a lot smarter than I was several weeks ago when facing this for the first time. Thanks to you all for the many, many sane words of wisdom xx

Just beware, okay? I thought h's behaviour (exactly like your h's) was depression but it was an ea. maybe he feels guilty now and has resolved to try and do the right thing but it may not last. well done for not saying the word affair - you can still look for evidence while he thinks he has got away with it and may let down his guard - or she may get more desperate and take more risks trying to contact him.

I am sure a lot of boss / assistant affairs take place owing to the men (usually in boss role, sadly, but that's sexism for you!)being a bit insecure and flattered by an even vaguely okayish looking woman buzzing round them like they are the grand centre of the universe while at home they are second or just equal to baby etc. They forget the charming assistsnt's paid to do it! So they get friendly and... bingo, mess all round. just my thoughts - scuse typing, baby on lap.

Yeah I am sure that happens. In reality, who wouldn't love the attention and feel flattered by it? But still no excuse and yes I am planning to search for evidence especially now his guard is down. Without something concrete I just won't mention it so he really feels I am not on his case. I tried the 'can I just use your phone' idea, but it was unlocked for me by him, then handed over and anyway I can't seem to navigate a blackberry easily.

We have a big work event coming up, where DH is presenting in a public forum so all sorts of family, friends, collegues will be there and OW there in her capacity of managing the whole thing. I know i will feel edgy about it. Never do this sort of thing - but wondered if I might go to hairdresser that day so feel I look as good as I can. Maybe silly and no need but i will be dreading it

Loves2Walk - I read your post really carefully and yes, there has been a real turning point.

If an affair (emotional or physical) is ongoing however, what you might find is that this new phase between you doesn't last, but it will be different nevertheless to how it was before you talked.

I've said before - if not on your post, then on these boards - that I had a similar chat with DH 6 weeks before discovery. My main focus during that chat (which I started) was how his changed behaviour was affecting me and the DCs, but I remember so clearly it started with me saying that I felt he just wasn't "into me" at the moment, and I wondered why?

I didn't have anything like the insight I do now about affair behaviour - and all I had to go on was gut instinct about an affair, the first such inkling I'd had in 24 years. In retrospect, I don't think I really believed it was possible, but this nagging instinct wouldn't go away - and I was such a non-jealous, suspicious person. Of course my DH denied that there was someone else and even made a joke about how implausible that was - and he reacted rather like your H did the other night.

He admitted the behaviour I'd noticed - and we had a long chat about the stress he was having at work. So much of what he said about this work stuff was truthful and because we'd always been such a close couple, I was able to identify with the situations he described and the people involved. He agreed to seek help from our GP if things didn't improve. He was in tears about how he'd made me feel - and told me he didn't just love me, he adored me - that I was the love of his life.

After what had seemed like a breakthrough, his behaviour towards me did change. He stopped creating arguments with me, but his behaviour towards the DCs didn't improve dramatically - and he started to have arguments with other people, which was so unusual.

In retrospect, over the next 6 weeks or so he started the process of coming back to me. I started to see glimpses of the old him, but there were still uncharacteristic (for him) episodes of insensitivity towards me - and we had a much briefer but tearful showdown a week before discovery, when he had been particularly unsupportive about a business setback of mine. However, this time he realised how inadequate he had been and even bought me a really thoughtful present to cheer me up after this setback.

We've often reviewed what was actually happening during this phase and he has told me that the night we had that first chat, he felt terrified. He hadn't realised how bad he was at compartmentalising and had believed that this affair, which had no future, would burn out quickly with no collateral damage. His instincts were to deny and reassure - and he says how much he actually valued the opportunity to be honest about the work stress, because that at least was true. Tellingly, he says that he could not have met or communicated with OW that night - I was being so loving and supportive, it would have felt awful.

He says that over the next few weeks, he started to see the OW in a much clearer light, but his attempts to extricate himself from the relationship were causing her to become more volatile than ever - and so the stress got worse for a while. He started to worry that there would be some fall-out from this after all, as she became alternately adoring and hysterically angry with him. He is able to pinpoint various occasions/moments - that I also remember very well - when his deep feelings for me came flooding to the surface.

Ironically, on the very night when I made my accidental discovery, he had refused repeated requests from her to meet up after work. He says that having tried to end this twice already, only to relent quickly afterwards, this was the first time he felt absolutely resolute that he could stick to his guns and end the relationship. He felt a spring in his step on the journey home - and phoned me to see if I was still up. He recalls feeling overjoyed that I was, although wondered why I sounded a bit strange. Unbeknowns to him, half an hour earlier I had found a lost phone with incrimating text messages on it - and I was in shock.

So what you might find is that your talk has re-focused him on what he might stand to lose. But if there is a relationship with this woman - and in your case he is seeing her every day - you might see him behaving better towards you, but worse to others. If he's been physically unfaithful, he might start to feel proper guilt for the first time about now - and so your intimacy might still not be as good as it once was. It never is while there are secrets.

If there is an affair, the next catalyst could be you finding out, him ending it with her, or him increasing his involvement with her. It so depends whether he has been addicted to her as a person, or addicted to the feelings the affair has given him. If it's the latter, your talk will have hastened the affair's end. And given what you've written today, I think that's most likely FWIW.

I do think however you need to know if an affair has happened, because I suspect you will always wonder and your trust will be compromised, without a chance to regain it properly. So in your shoes I would continue to check things (the E mails especially) and I would also try to get a look at those Blackberry invoices however I managed it, by fair means or foul. I wouldn't want a life of wondering if something had happened - and trust me Loves, without disclosure or discovery, your marriage will never reach its true potential.

My H and I have often speculated what might have happened if I hadn't found out that night. The affair would have ended, of that I have no doubt, but it could have become what I call a "gateway" infidelity. My H would never have had to face up to the hurt and pain of it all and once you've been unfaithful and undiscovered, it's easier the next time.

For a long time, my H believed that the whole thing was so stressful - and he felt so horrible much of the time, those memories would have deterred him. But we have now accepted that there comes a point when those bad memories might have faded - and the ones about the excitement would have remained more vivid. Discovery was the best thing that could have happened in our circumstances.

My H at the time would never, ever have disclosed what he'd done. So we would have resumed what had always been a happy marriage - but one that needed revitalising after 24 years - with this cancerous secret between us. And it might have happened again - and this time possibly with more devastating consequences. We genuinely shudder to think what a lost opportunity that would have been.

I'm saying all this so that you don't fear discovery and to stop the temptation that you might be feeling, to put your head in the sand. It might just be the best thing that ever happened to your marriage.

Thats all really interesting. Thank you for such a long post about your situation. I find it hard to believe how these things pan out and am struck by how many people find these affairs go on for ages even through imtimate/relationship type discussions. Or weekends away, or holidays etc.. Chilling.

You can tell that I am still pretty sure that something has/is happening and so we can't really move on properly just yet. But it is so good to have peace at home and not a monster, and good to feel loved again. I can see the temptation to hide my head in the sand, because the alternative is to become a bit obsessed with evidence. Though I want to find evidence I don't want to spend all my spare moments thinking about ways - but I will grab opportunities and that will be easier if DH is relaxed at home.

We are back to planning a weekend away after his big work event so in 2 weeks. Not sure I'm going to be able to be fully relaxed and into the whole thing with this doubt hanging around.

One really odd thing that happened while I was away is I decided to tell my brother and girlfriend that I was concerned about DH behaviour. I suppose I wanted support and to know that he was in my camp if it all went pear shaped. He shares love of football and does really get on well with DH so I needed to know his loyalty was with me becasue I was feeling fragile last week. Anyway when I told him and GF they looked at each other shocked, in a sort of 'told you something was up' way. They said at Christmas they had noticed DH was snappy and moody and not as tolerant of my parents as usual. DH and brother went to pub for some afternoon chill, drinking/sport time as they usually do but it was not as fun as usual, DH seemed not bothered about chatting and not as relaxed. So that sort of validated my feelings. I told them about OW and they both think he has definately crossed the line - brother was a bit 'well, why wouldn't he in that situation?' which pissed me off but they were both really sweet to me and it was definately good to feel they were on my side. Is interesting that other people noticed a change at that time.

Yes it is chilling how affairs can continue despite the close, happy and intimate times - and it takes a long time for the betrayed partner to get their head around this. However, to understand it, you've first got to establish what the spouse was addicted to in the affair - the affair partner or just the feelings they were getting. It also depends on whether they were happy in their primary relationship before all this started - and whether they still loved their spouses and wanted to stay with them. In DH's case, he was addicted to the feelings - and not the person.

The actual affair lasted for 4 months and they only met twice for sex in all that time - she was also married. Throughout that 4 month period, we had a weekend away together on our own - and two longish family holidays. Crazy as it sounds, my DH reports that any texts received from the OW during those holidays were an intrusion to him. He also says that he had no urge to get home and was able to enjoy them immensely. On the last holiday in fact, we had a rare connecting moment, which was during the period when he felt he was coming back to me.

It took a long time, but we now view the holidays and the intimate chats as being positive events - they provided a harbour from the storm that was raging and in the case of the chats, a wake-up call. The holidays represented enjoyable family time when we were all feeling and looking our best. Away from the truly insane volume of contact with OW either side of these events (from both sides) he was able to relax more and he did notice that.

WRT that event, I would do just as you plan - look your sparkling best, as this will help your confidence in a tricky situation. If you can persuade your friend to gush in front of DH and OW how absolutely beautiful you look, even better. It's something I did recently for a friend who was in your shoes - and was regularly to be found gushing to her H about his DW's many qualities....!

Regard that weekend away then, as an ally in this campaign.

Ah yes, as I said before, distancing from in-laws really does happen. It did with us too.

Loves2Walk I saw you on Mumsnet this morning (you posted last night on another thread) and would love to hear from you, as have been worrying about you. Would you be able to update when you get the chance?

Have just read the whole of this thread this morning! I feel for you Loves2Walk but there is some great advice on here from everyone.

The best piece of advice I can give which has served me well (and it sounds as if you have already done) is to mentally put yourself in the middle of the picture. Regardless of what DH is or isn't doing, it is important to work out exactly what YOU want and communicate that. It's fairly clear that you want to be in a loving, trusting, supportive relationship which is calm, happy and a good environment for your DCs. You haven't been achieving that because DH has been distracted/having an affair/depressed/whatever else. He needs to decide what he wants and, if his hopes are the same as yours, he needs to up his game and make a plan to get it sorted.

You want a DH who is prepared to go the mile for you. If he isn't prepared to do that then you need to reassess your wants in light of that. This puts you in a position of control and power and you are not wasting energy chasing your tail looking for clues of misdemeanours. It is also good to remind yourself that you have high standards for yourself and your DCs and shoddy treatment from DH just won't cut it.

You cannot make another person do anything. They need to want and make changes of their own accord. If he isn't prepared to work with you and make your marriage work, is there much point in staying? I personally, would rather be happy and single with DCs than married and miserable with a DH I didn't trust.

Also, for whatever reason, I think people subconsciously sabotage themselves. His behaviour is not a reaction to you but something that is going on beneath the surface. It could be one thing or it could be a collection of things. He probably can't even explain it himself if he's honest.
If he is having an affair with OW it is probably a case of her/him being in the same place at the same time rather than a predetermined intention to go out and find a mistress.

Sadly, I didn't have Mumsnet when I had problems with ex-BF but this book helped me to see the light:-
www.amazon.co.uk/How-Make-Your-Man-Commit/dp/0340717807/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&q id=1269080624&sr=1-1

Oh dear, the situation that I described at the beginning of this thread seems so long ago but, it is still lingering. I'm sure I'm not the only person who is keeping a relationship going without really being sure if it should continue or come to an end. No happy ending here WWIFN but then no more heartbreak, for now anyway.

Following on from my last post, DH had a big, public work event which OW attended as the admin backup and I attended as supportive wife with my parents and DS1 in tow. It went fabulously and a few of us went out for drinks and supposedly a meal afterwards, but the drinking took over and very little was eaten. OW got horrendously drunk very quickly and I made sure I stuck to water so I could observe her/his behaviour. She was wound up certainly and was acting oddly whereas DH was being sociable with everyone, chatting and happy. As I was obsessed with finding out whether anything had gone on between them, I joined her for several cigarette breaks outside pub (she smokes - I haven't smoked for 20yrs but am prepared to do almost anything to find out the truth - I actually quite liked the smoking bit and found it came back to me all too easily! I thought by smoking with her,it would give us a closeness so she might open up to me. Noone else in the group was smoking so we were alone for 3 or 4 cigarette breaks throughout the evening). I couldn't ask her directly but I asked her about her love life and if she was in a happy place at the moment. She clearly isn't happy and told me how unhappy she is woth work and all the awful things that she and DH have to put up with. She admitted nothing, affair related.

In the taxi on way home, DH said he thought she had acted very oddly during the evening and he said he was worried she was in love with him. I asked if he was maybe in love with her and he got very upset and said nothing could be further from the truth. That he loved me and was not interested in her. I stopped the taxi and suggested we went off to yet another pub, just the 2 of us, to discuss it properly and I told him my concerns about an affair. He really seemed genuinely upset and denied everything. He said he thought I was being cold to him, that I had switched off from him and I agreed I had because he was lost to me.

I have to admit it did not all add up and is still worrying me. The next day, he asked for advice about what he should do with OW and her possible love for him. I told him on no account should he become her shoulder to cry on - he should distance himself as much as possible. He is her boss, I said that made him very vulnerable indeed.

Then couple days later she told him she was going to be applying for other jobs. Within same organisation at same grade, but she felt a need for a different challenge etc. It is a stressful place to work and she claimed she was finding that stress too much.

My feeling is that they had an affair, or a night together and faced with losing me and our DSs, he decided to not take it further. She may have wanted more and now can't face him playing happy families with me and being alone herself.

After a tense few weeks, DH and I are back in really good form. He's being totally loving again - bought me my favourite chocolate for easter, has taken this week off work to hang out together and is doing lots of things he knows I like. He has accepted a lot of what I said about his level of aggression being inappropriate in the family and is trying to work on it. He admits he was impossible to live with for most of Jan/Feb and just thinks it was all work related and now this big event is over, he is calm and better. I am not sure I trust him. Well, I don't actually trust him but it is certainly not bad enough to make me want to leave him and as things are calm, there is nothing more to do. I just live with doubt, but like I said at the beginning, maybe thats what a lot of people do??

Hello Loves2Walk I've thought about you a lot. Thanks for updating. There is huge progress here in terms of how he is with you and the children, but I sense you are right.

What happened after you admitted to him your affair worries? Was the subject more or less closed thereafter, beyond his concern about the OW's feelings? You see, if you did hit a nerve, then your H would not want to revisit that conversation at all. Whereas if he was genuinely horrified by the idea and that you thought him capable of that, he would. Did you spend any time talking about safe friendships?

The second clue to me thinking you are right is that E mail you uncovered - it does suggest something happened but it cannot continue, doesn't it?

OW's behaviour was very revealing at that event. You played a blinder, Loves.

It sounds like she has given up, but the transfer request might be a bit of "flouncing", so has she followed through? Do they still see eachother out of work at the football?

Given the progress you have made in communication, do you think you can progress to talking about this doubt you have? Perhaps couch this in terms of a secret being like a cancer in your relationship? That your trust has gone? Do you think you have got to the point that if he were to admit a brief affair, you could get past it - and tell him this, so that it gives him "permission" to disclose?

I think something did happen - and at some point he realised that it was getting out of hand and he didn't want that. It would explain the extreme stress and anger.

Living with this doubt must be awful - it would I think be so much better if you knew once and for all, so that you could decide what to do thereafter. I don't think your marriage can really "grow" while there is this doubt and mistrust - so much between you seems to be unspoken.

Did you find anything else out from other sources? Did you give any thought to your friend accessing the Blackberry invoices? Has his "phone behaviour" changed at all and if so, when?

Another question that doesn't seem to have been asked is: "Last summer, you admitted that you were attracted to her. What happened to those feelings?"

Yes, so much is unsaid, you are right. My strategy (I think!) is to be patient and allow this to evolve. It is frustrating to not know for sure but I think I will know at some stage in the future and at a time when DH feels safe enough to be honest, I can tackle it.

I feel there is a manipulative side of me at work here that I didn't know existed before now but is proving useful. So for example, the fact that they didn't know my suspicions before the event was really helpful. It allowed me to observe and also do a bit of digging - I made contact with OW through email before the event and asked her if she would be so kind as to arrange parking for my parents, being as they are elderly and unwell but were so excited for DH etc.and keen to be there, then during this exchange when she said she was looking forward to it, I innocently expressed surprise, and delight, that she would be attending. Very childish of me as of course I knew she would be there, but it worked. DH came home that night saying OW had said something odd to him - she apparently seemed offended by something I had said to her about her attending the event and why shouldn't she be there? So I established through this that there was a level of emotion for her that was perhaps a bit inappropriate and I gave her the message that she was the 'addition' in this situation not me.

Anyway, it was revealing. Your comment about 'flouncing' is also a good one. Of course that's what she's doing. I haven'e heard about any follow up although she did submit an application but I will ask about it. They went to football last weekend with a crowd and are going again this weekend. He is now much more responsive to texts from me during the travel and match than he was previously and seems much more open about describing who is there etc. He is keen to still go though so I suppose the risk is still there.

We haven't discussed the attraction since the event night. It has gone away as a topic and as I say I think I should leave it that way for now. So I can re-explore it when he's relaxed enough to open up or through any pain he might have been going through about it. To be honest, the peace and warmth right now is enough for me to relax into without disrupting things. And low and behold DS2 is sleeping better than before so I attribute that to calmer home life and don't want to lose that now either.

Thanks for your thoughts

We had our 11th wedding anniversary yesterday and spent the day at the beach with DSs then had a babysitter booked so we could go for a meal and a concert. We had a big chat about the last 11yrs and what sort of marriage we wanted for the next 11yrs. We were so close and so together in our thinking of our future, even laughing about what fun we might have in our retirement years. Try as I did I just couldn't bring up OW and this affair - I so don't want to ruin things and be seen as a nagging wife. I just think I could then be guilty of sabotaging our relationship by bringing her into things. But then I'm worried this is me not being assertive enough or making some sort of sacrifice in a martyr-ish way and I so don't want to become that sort of person.
They are together now with a group at football and I don't feel threatened by this, or by her anymore. Maybe I'm fooling myself but I can't believe he could still harbour feelings for her and continue with me - why would he? But then I read over the whole post again and devestatedbuthopeful had 3 yrs of her DH having an affair and WWIFN mentioned this idea of 'gateway infidelity' so it might happen again and I get worried all over again.

I don't know what to do except enjoy this peace and be smarter for the future. I am not hiding my head in the sand, I just want to enjoy being married to the guy I still love and I suppose I'm kind of accepting that that guy may have recently been unfaithful but loves me more than her and wants to be with me in the future, not with her.

Loves I do understand your desire not to "spoil the moment" last night. However - but bear in mind I am probably a different sort of person - I have less understanding of why you haven't followed up at other times, on things that are in the open domain. I am thinking of your H's openly expressed concerns about the OW's feelings for him, her transfer request - and of course, the whole catalyst of this, the declaration of feelings last summer.

I still have this feeling that you're trying to be something you're not. It is telling that you comment in your last post that you don't want to appear the "nagging wife". I feel you need to give yourself permission to assert yourself and ask the sort of questions that would be second nature to me - and always would have been. I don't know why you want to be the benign wife who asks no questions.

It is wonderful that the crisis seems to have passed and I have no doubt he loves you and now wants to put the past behind him and move on. I think my H would have been much the same, undiscovered. However, he admits he would have viewed me differently and that he would have been living in fear of any "we need to talk" request from me, that might indicate I had found out.

If your H has been unfaithful, yes I do think that undiscovered, since the taboo has been broken in this marriage (like his first) it will be easier to do it again. I feel your H really needs to learn some things about himself and that your marriage would benefit from some honest conversations about fidelity and its importance.

This OW might go away, but from where I'm standing, that doesn't solve the problem.

I suppose also what I'm saying to you is that I couldn't live with doubt or suspicion - I would have to know, one way or the other.

Thanks for replying. I do have to know one way or another and I know the uncertainty is eating away at me, no matter what i try and tell myself. And I certainly don't want to be a 'benign wife' - I care about certain things very strongly - my children, my work, DH - and I take strong positions at times about things that are important to me. My marriage is something I care very much about. However this feels different and frightening. It is so out of my control and it all could go so horribly wrong. It obviously didn't for you and sounds a very upsetting but amazing journey that you have been on, but it doesn't always end that way. My marriage going wrong would be terrible for so many people - not just me but for DSs and my parents and whole family who adore DH and would not understand us splitting up. I suppose I am very scared that the outcome of too much analysis would be an end to our marriage. If that makes me a doormat then I can't believe I am in this position. 20yrs ago I was never a person who you would predict would become a doormat. I'm sure my friends would say I won't ever be, that this is just a difficult phase that I'm struggling with. I recognise I have a problem with confrontation so maybe I need to work on that and ask a few awkward questions. And maybe acknowledge that much as I want this to go away, it just isn't without some focus on it first

Actually I don't think I have been that benign really.

OK, we have not directly discussed where the original attraction went too but he has said 'it was a long time ago' and he doesn't feel the same now. That it is over and was never really anything anyway.

I asked yesterday about her job application as I knew she had applied for a post. He expressed his support for her doing so but also told her he felt the job was too much of a sideways move and she should be aiming higher. He told me she was 'put out' at him saying that until another senior person in organisation said it too at which point she apologised to him (?) and it doesn't seem to have gone further. He thinks she may have withdrawn.

We sort of returned to the issue of his concern that she was in love with him - well not directly, but the week after the work event she had a date with someone and this turned into a brief relationship which seems to be over now but was active for a week or so. Maybe that was a smokescreen but DH didn't seem bothered about it. Suppose I'm just saying that infact I have questionned DH about all this and I think he'd be bit sick of me continually bringing it up again and again. Infact last night we were talking about someone close to us whose husband had an affair recently and they're trying to patch things up. I said I thought she will regret patching it up as she will be in same situation in 10 yrs time with 10 yrs less chance of finding someone to really love her - this guy is serious trouble - and DH said his view was that these things were better worked through and marriages not given up on - then he quickly said 'and no nothing happened with OW, that's not a personal comment...'. Think he really is sick of me bringing it up, and like I said that in itself could sabotage our relationship.

He now tells me who is going on the football trip and texts me regularly throughout the afternoon. Well, has texted me once today in response to me texting him, but he is being open and positive.