Can an emotional abuser really change?

[fairyliquid123]

Hi - my H is away for the weekend, so I have the chance to get on the comupter without him seeing and could do with a bit of advice. I have posted my situation on Mumsnet a little while ago, so some of you may recognise me me. One MN suggested I start my own thread - so here goes!

We've been married 17 years and were married within a year of meeting. H was really full-on and proposed within 3 months. As soon as I accepted, he started to tell me I wasn't allowed to wear short skirts and low tops and would peer down everything I wore to make sure he couldn't see anything. Polo necks, button-top blouses and jeans became the only options. We moved 200 miles away near his family and I didn't keep in touch with my friends because he didn't seem to want me to. I occassionally went out with my colleagues, but it usually caused trouble. We have never had any joint friends as I find he makes little effort and has a reason for disliking most people we know. He has always been jealous of other men and makes comments about what other men are like and what they would like to do to me and calls local shopkeepers my "boyfriends" in front of the kids. When I go out, he asks if I "got off" with anyone. He became increasingly difficult and rude with my parents and really upset them. Now they won't come to visit us because they find his behaviour intimidating. However he feels an entitlement to their giving us money for things. He has always been very critical of many things I do - the house is never tidy enough, the kids are scruffy, I have made too much/too little tea, I eat too healthily etc. This has increasing impacted on the kids, as he has critised their table manners, friends, attitude to homework/helping round the house. He is particularly sensitive to noise - I gulp when I drink, make too much noise eating certain foods, I am too noisy when brushing my teeth. He has occassionaly put me down infront of people - e.g. telling me not to laugh, as what I said wasn't funny. On our own, he frequently tells me that what I have said was not interesting or makes a very disinterested "oh really" or "that's very nice for you" reply. If I complain about any of these, I can't take a joke or he turns it round to make it look that I am at fault. Occassionally, he picks on things he knows I am sensitive about and makes really underhand comments. I didn't get an internal job recently and he commented on how embarrassed I would be to go into work because everyone would be laughing at me. He once made a list of all the things he doesn't like about me and told me them. When I got upset, he told me I couldn't take a joke but I knew full well the things were true.

A few months ago he had been very low for 6 months, with bad mood swings, refusing to eat when he wasn't happy and highly critical. The behaviour was also targeted at the children with lots of shouting and arguaments, anger and criticisms. He also did a few physical acts on by youngest son - biting his finger and drawing blood, prodding, kicking, yanking, grasping arms. I had enough and, after several attempts, finally got him to listen to me. He moved into the spare bedroom, went to the Dr and got anti-depressants. The behaviour continued but once the drugs started working, his moods started to improve but the underlying comments continued. We then went on holiday with his Mum, who is very like him, and he was surprised (not shocked) by his mother's childish and frankly appauling behaviour (she assaulted my SIL). Since then, for the last month, his behaviour is noticably better. His mood has improved greatly. However, I can still see the old him under the surface. It's almost as if he has refined it a bit to look more acceptable - or maybe I'm being cynical. He's desperate to save the marriage and I'm going to relate on my own because of our difficult relationship. However he keeps saying it's a waste of money and I'm having to force my need to go. I am wearing lower tops and tighter clothes and he is making comments, but not stopping me. He is largely keeping his cool with DS but occassionally snaps, as opposed to often. He insisted I drove my DS to a club last weekend when he heard I had agreed to take DS's friend, who he doesn't like. Later he then insisted that he drove when he heard more friends were joining the lift because "I'm not having you drive 4 boys, you won't be able to do it". Both conversations were infont of the kids and I felt controlled. He is desperate to move back into our bedroom and I am holding out. However it is becoming harder as his behaviour improves to find a reason why not.

This weekend is great. I left the washing on the line all night, the kids in their PJ's this morning and had breakfast at 11am. All usually commented on. My DS, who is 11, has said it's great that we are not being controlled and has a friend over now for a sleep over. My other DS said he isn't missing him and has said he hates him to his face several times lately. He often shirks from him.

Have any of you had experiences of EA's changing behaviour and did it last? I'm feeling guilty at the moment,as I am planning to leave. He is trying to improve but I feel I have moved on already and really don't want to continue in the relationship. I feel I have less justification for leaving, whereas before his behaviour was really unacceptable. My relate counsellor says I don't need a reason to leave but I find that reasoning hard to accept if I am breaking up a family.

Sorry for the long post - but I feel my resolve slipping.

IMO you need to decide what is best for you.

If you stay you should stay because you want to for you, not because his behaviour is no longer bad and therefore a reason to leave.

You don't need justification for anything.

I, too, lived with an emotionally abusive man. He did many of the same things to me that you describe here in your post. It took me a decade to find the courage to leave him and by then there was very little of the original me left. It got to the point where I was making a decision based on what its approval rating would be, not on what I felt was best or appropriate.

I don't believe that anyone can change a pattern of behaviour unless they are fully committed to making the change in themselves. They need to recognise that the way that they are behaving is hurting the other person and take steps to change. In my ex's case, I don't believe that he would have changed. By the time that he was promising to change, I couldn't have given a hoot whether he did or not because I felt nothing for him.

What do you feel would be best for you? What do you want from a relationship?

The rot set in 17 years ago. Depression doesn't make a person act this way - both dh and I have suffered from it, but neither of us would dream of treating a person like this - especially with children involved.

'Breaking up a family'??? A family should be a safe place where you feel loved and nurtured - especially for a child - and your children don't feel this way. So don't worry about that, for a start.

I have no personal experience of being in a relationship like this but when your DC are happier when he's not there and actually say it then I think that breaking up the family is the best thing for you and them.

Its EA to you but he is physically abusive to your DS - I think you need to draw the line, and get out now, before it escalates!

FWIW I left a man like this nearly 3 years ago, I'm still not truly free and I still bear the emotional scars, I do really understand how hard it is!

I have done a lot of reading on EA, and started the Freedom programme, honestly in my heart I do not believe these men can ever change!

hmm I mean I have started DOING the Freedom Programme, not that I actually started it

Thanks for your replies - it feels good to talk. Leg - I want to be loved and respected for who I am and be able to live my life with him with separate as well as shared interests. Most of all, I want my children to grow up in a happy home and understanding caring relationships - I don't think they are all the time, only occassionally. I know I am far from perfect but am still worthy of love just the same. I have built up a large network of friends over the last few years - so I can't be that bad. He didn't like it but has stopped complaining as much when I go out. It seems I do things inspite of him. I enjoy my children, friends and work but there is this big shadow waiting at home. I feel really sorry for him as he finds it so hard to make friends and has no interests outside the home. He's refused all attempts from others to make friends or involve him in new interests. I had to really encourage him to go away this weekend. I don't think he is fully committed to changing himself, just scared he will lose me and the kids. He is making some attempt to get CBT but he has waited for me to push him and the Dr to take ages arranging it. I think he thinks that, as he is behaving a bit better, all is well and why don't I fall back into our normal marriage.
Wicked and Epithet - you are right - my DS's are trying to tell me something. I'm just not listening because I feel alone and so responsible. I also feel angry. Why should I not wake up every morning to my beautiful kids because he is a prat?

Hi Macdoodle - you are right, it is hard. It is so intangible. Others find it hard to understand - he hasn't hit me and he hasn't been unfaithful and everyone has problems with their DH's sometimes.

What is the Freedom Programme and how did you come accross it? I find there is real ignorance amongst professionals about EA, either that or they ignore it because no-one has been physically hurt. My youngest DH is being investigated for ADHD and Aspbergers. I have mentioned some of the home issues to professionals as I feel it may impact or may even be the main issue but they are really not interested.

I am so pleased you managed to leave and wish I had your courage.

Please please please find the courage to leave him. He doesn't have to hit you, the wounds from emotional abuse run just as deep, and not just for you, for your kids. I don't have experience of being with a controlling man myself, but my dad was VERY VERY emotionally abusive, and it has affected my whole life.

We grew up in a climate of constant fear, like a dark cloud over the house all the time. Would he wake up in a good mood or a bad mood? mum would scurry around clearing before he came home from work. She wasn't allowed to be ill. She had no friends. He had affairs all over the place and when she suspected, he told her she was actually going insane - in the end she hired a private detective to confirm it, and yes of course, he was.

He was also physically abusive, not really with me as I was the youngest but in some ways it was worse because I was just petrified of him, because the violence was always threatened and never arrived, but the wait was agony.

I used to hope and pray we'd leave, or he'd die, and we could be happy together. BUt she was always too scared to leave. And when she finally did they lived in seperate houses for a whole year before he manipulated his way back in with stories about how he'd turned his life around. He wasn't drinking any more. He was taking his AD's. It was all bollocks.

No sooner had she sold up and moved back in with him the controlling began again, she was constantly anxious and utterly under his control. And then she got cancer and died. And while she was dying he was still a cunt, tormenting her and being jealous of the attention (nursing) she was getting.

They do not change their spots. You shouldn't have to live in fear, being constantly put down and reprimanded. Get out of there and have the life you and your children deserve, so if you can't do it for yourself do it for them. Chances are they're hoping for it even more than you.

If he was spirited away by aliens, leaving you financially secure because of a winning lottery ticket he'd left in the pocket of his jeans...

...just how gutted would you be?

Because if the answer is, well, not at all actually, then I think you know that you're best calling it a day.

The abuse of your ds would probably be 'game over' for me (he bit his finger & drew blood?).

he wouldn't get a second chance from me, that's for damn sure.

You don't really have a family, you have a group of frightened children and you are a woman who is having the life sucked out of her by a tormentor and abuser. There is nothing good here to salvage except your sanity and what's left of your children's childhood.

What is going on here is not intangible. He bit one of your children and drew blood. This is called assault and it is a crime. If he did this to a stranger on the street he would be arrested.

Are you looking for permission to leave? Please leave, before he destroys the innocent children. Leave with only the clothes on your back if needs be. He will not change. You deserve to be loved and you deserve the ordinary freedom everyone takes for granted; you will never have this with this abuser. Do not stay because of the principle that a woman should be loved by her own husband and you are determined to make that happen. It will never happen.

Agree with all the others esp mathanxiety. I am shocked that after his abuse of the children you are still feeling guilty at the thought of kicking him out. Even if you don't feel you deserve to be happy (and you will be without this loser in your life) your boys are giving you the clearest signals they can. You will all be better off and happier without him. What is there to feel guilty about?

Fairy from my personal experience, I'd say it's doubtful that you will find love and respect in a relationship with a man who is behaving the way your D(?)H has been. To me, it sounds like he is paying lipservice to making the changes, just enough to keep you there and maintain the status quo. You say that you want to be loved and respected for who you are. This goal might never be achieveable with your H. He has 17 years of controlling behaviour under his belt and that is a lot to change in himself. If you are anything like me, it will seem easier to stick with what you've got than to make the changes. Your life will have a familiar rhythm to it; your new life will take some getting used to.

My situation took 20 years to create and in the end, I was a doormat. I had no life to call my own, no opinions of my own. I had to fight or manipulate to get anything for me. I was so deeply unhappy with my life that I could barely function and I became physically very ill. He would tell me that I should stick with him because noone else would ever want me; that I would never find anyone who could match up to my very high expectations. Yet leaving was a very difficult decision to make - I was breaking up a "family". He threatened never to see our child if I ever left. When I did leave, he carried out the threat and had no contact for a year. There is contact now, but it is on his terms (his last bit of control).

Eventually I did find the strength to leave and stay left until the divorce was final. I nearly went back a couple of times, just to make all the noise stop and go back to my quiet mousy (familiar) life. Three years on I have a lovely little house that I can decorate in colours of my choosing; I have flowers in my little garden; I can do things without having to justify anything. I have also met someone who is showing me what a normal, caring, loving relationship is like. I wish with all my heart that I had left sooner. I feel that I have wasted a decade of my life.

All that said, you have to decide what it best for you and your children. It doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks. If/when you leave, it has to be for you.

I would entirely agree with all the responses; particularly those of Jamesandthegiantbanana and mathanxiety.
Controlling behaviours like he displays are abusive behaviours. He's not just EA, he's an angry control freak and a very dangerous man to be around at all. He has already controlled you through his actions (he's done a thorough number on you) and and he is working on his children by trying to control them as well.

Your family is broken and has been for years. The warning signs of control and abuse were there 17 years ago. This man groomed you really, you probably at the time thought he was your knight in shining armour (he was very full on and after proposing within three months his true nature emerged. You unfortunately did not walk away then). You may well have been emotionally vulnerable and or with low self esteem/self worth too which is what these men look for. Such women are easier to control. You have allowed yourself to be controlled.

The "old" him was a damaged him, the damaged him being caused by his own mother (you do not mention his dad). There are likely other factors too quite apart from his depression which in itself has not caused his controlling ways. What I am trying to say here is that his problems are deeply ingrained and cannot be readily fixed.

Look at his mother as well; he learnt an awful lot from her whilst growing up in terms of control. Unfortunately (and that's an understatement) you went on to marry and have children by him.

Look at your children too, really look at them. What are you both (yes both) teaching them about relationships here?. You are both imparting damaging lessons to them, lessons that they will likely go onto repeat as adults in their own relationships if you do not act but bumble on.

I would argue that he is just buttering you up by showing changed behaviour but its a good act. The ADs etc are but a smoke screen. After you have him back the control will rear its ugly head again, perhaps even more intense than before and its been awful enough for you and your kids the past 17 years. Do not give him that opportunity; legally separate from him and get him out of your house. I do not say that at all lightly but these men never change. He does not admit any wrong doing at all.

Your children are badly affected by him as well. He bit your son and drew blood - that should have been the end of the line for him. But he is still in the house.

Who comes first here - you and this abuser of a husband (because all his behaviour is both learnt from his mother and abusive) or your sanity and your children?.

You have a choice here re how you want your life to move forward (hopefully without this man in it on a day to day basis); your children have no say. You do not want your children to turn around to you ultimately and say that you put him before them.

I would suggest you also read "Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft. The controlling and angry man (controlling men are often angry men as well) like him is in those pages.

Do not feel guilty about him - guilt is a useless emotion. You are also NOT responsible for him, only your own self and your children. You say you have moved on already and do not want to continue in this relationship. Make it your continued resolve to get him out of your lives because he has brought nothing but pain into all of yours. He has done immense damage to you all, damage that will take years to unravel.

fairyliquid123, Do what feels right for you.
Iam feeling very similar, dh left to give me some space in may this year and I have had various guilty feelings since then. We were married for nearly 18 years and I could have written a lot of your post and a bit more.

Iam not sure the guilt will ever go away, my dh had a problem with alcohol, and when he realised I was serious about seperating he stopped drinking, I do sometimes think maybe I should give him another chance, but me and the children are ok and I think I have run out of patience trying to make things work.

I don't feel Iam in a position to offer advice, but know that MN is a great source of help and support.

He will not change.....this will damage your children.

After you have left the only regret you will have is that you didn't do it years ago.

Wishing you all the strength you need...keep posting...

xxxxx

His behaviour is better - but you are all still hugely relieved when he is not there. That says it all, I think.

Thank you all for your posts. I have sat here and cried because I know in my heart it is EA and a bit physical with the kids and I feel guilty for still being here. He is clever - he knows where to draw the line and my lines have become blurred. He knows if he ever hit me or the kids he would be out. The things he does are more sublte - except the finger incident, which he did on holiday, so it was hard to throw him out. The Dr knows and informed SS but they weren't interested - I assumed it wasn't technically abuse.

James - your comments about your Dad and your feelings hit home. That will be my DS's if I don't act now.

ManAnx - I am looking for permission to leave. I'm looking for someone to express an opinion because the other people I have spoken to know H and don't seem willing to. That makes me query if it's "bad enough", especially as it has improved lately and he is visibly trying. Sometimes you can see him chosing not to shout and backtracking his behaviour to a more approriate response.

Leg - it is easier to stick with what you have. We have a nice house, enough money and the kids are used to certain activities and all that would change. The house would have to go but I could hopefully get something in the same area. Attila - I was vulnerable when I met him. I had moved 200 miles to a new and difficult job. We were both then made redundant and moved again to be near his family. I got sucked into it all and he made out it was my family that are not normal - too quiet and not interested enough in our lives. His family can't keep away and are very interfereing and controlling. He made sure it was hard for me to make friends by his behaviour towards them, negative comments and complaining about me going out and leaving him or not doing the housework.

His damage is caused by his Mum. She was EA'd as a child by her step dad. She is horrible and controlling to his dad and regularly puts him down in public - my parents cringe. He is a shadow of a man and angry. He sees her faults but sicks up for her. She is a control freak and regularly says unacceptable things to me and the kids. Recently she has been complaining about me to my eldest DS. He now dislikes her. She did the same to my SIL, which resulted in MIL hitting her becasue SIL dared to complain.

My two key issues are that if I leave him, he will still have access to the kids and I won't be there to see what is going on. Also my job is under review and not secure - so how can I support the kids if I lose it?

Part of what makes you doubt your instincts could be that when you are abused over a long time you start to see the abuse as being normal and because you have been 'conditioned' you don't realise how bad it is. Writing on here and getting other people's responses to it gives you more idea of what is normal and what is not and you can see from what people have said that the things he has done to you and your DCs is NOT normal.

Look - you are in denial about what he is doing. You say it's 'a bit physical' with the kids (no, it's beyond anything that is acceptable) yet you say 'if he hit them you would leave' (you haven't). You also say that as SS didn't get involved it must not be abuse. He bit your son and drew blood. What more do you need? He's dangerous. Get some self belief - you know that's not ok.

If you lost your job you would be ok. Income support, housing benefit, tax credits until you get back on your feet.

He beats your children (yes, yes he does. drawing blood is physical abuse.)
He terrifies you to the point where you think it's a wonderful thing for you to 'get away with' leaving the washing out overnight
Your children hate him.
If you continue with this relationship they will likely never properly forgive you for not improving their circumstances when you had the chance.

those boys of yours are DESPERATELY hoping you will do the right thing and remove this abusive bully from your house. YOUU are the only person in the world who can protect them from his behavior - don't you think it's time you showed them how serious you are about protecting them?

Don't let them grow up thinking he is worth more than they are, which they will if you let him move in. YOU may forgive him for beating your children, but do you really have the right to? It's not you he bit!

This man is abusing your kids. There is nothing else to discuss. Get them out of there as soon as you can.

Fairy - I agree wholeheartedly that it is easier to stick with the familiar. I did that, too, for a very long time. Your situation sounds so similar to mine that it is heartbreaking. There is life on the other side of this. If you are worried about your DCs being influenced by him, they are fast approaching - if not have already reached - an age where they can make up their own minds about him.

Also, when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what your friends and family think about him. All that matters is your opinion. You can choose to stay, but that choice has to include accepting the behaviour (the improved version or the old version). Or you can choose a different path that ultimately takes you away from the direct influence. However, the choice remains yours and noone other than you can make it or give permission for it.

I once saw a recommendation for this page It makes interesting reading.

What do you want out of life?.
Where do you see yourself in a year's time?. Still with him, still miserable?. This is not solely about you either, your children are equally caught up in the abuse your husband metes out as well.

Abusers as well can be quite plausible to those in the outside world and this may be why your own friends cannot see the wood for the trees. It can often take complete strangers to make a person like you really sit up and take notice. Denial is a powerful force but you need to fight your innate denial as well.

No abuse is worth a nice house and activities for the children, what you are living is a sham. Emotional abuse is just as bad as physical abuse, it causes damage too. I would argue your kids would rather go without a couple of activities than be with their Dad; the person who happily abuses both you and them. What are you teaching them here?. Think about that. The whole thing is built on sand and it will collapse around you one day. You cannot act like the helpless victim anymore.

You have been completely conditioned to accept his abuse as normal. I was not at all surprised to read you were vulnerable when you met either. You were ideal fodder for such an abuser.

You have already seen how his Mother has abused her son who is now your H; this abuse she meted out to him is being transferred onto them via him. This has now become generational in nature. It cannot and must not affect a third generation - your kids emotional futures are at stake here.

He may still have some access to the children but the court would decide that and your kids may not want to see him anyway.

You would be okay if you lost your job, benefits would be available to you.

I need to make an appointment with the CAB about benefits. Does anyone know if you can get benefits for paying a mortgage? I saw a solicitor and she said he would not be stopped from seeing his DS's because his behaviour isn't bad enough. I wouldn't want contact to stop but would not want him having equal access. If he did, me leaving, from the kids point of view, would be pointless.