Can an emotional abuser really change?

[fairyliquid123]

Hi - my H is away for the weekend, so I have the chance to get on the comupter without him seeing and could do with a bit of advice. I have posted my situation on Mumsnet a little while ago, so some of you may recognise me me. One MN suggested I start my own thread - so here goes!

We've been married 17 years and were married within a year of meeting. H was really full-on and proposed within 3 months. As soon as I accepted, he started to tell me I wasn't allowed to wear short skirts and low tops and would peer down everything I wore to make sure he couldn't see anything. Polo necks, button-top blouses and jeans became the only options. We moved 200 miles away near his family and I didn't keep in touch with my friends because he didn't seem to want me to. I occassionally went out with my colleagues, but it usually caused trouble. We have never had any joint friends as I find he makes little effort and has a reason for disliking most people we know. He has always been jealous of other men and makes comments about what other men are like and what they would like to do to me and calls local shopkeepers my "boyfriends" in front of the kids. When I go out, he asks if I "got off" with anyone. He became increasingly difficult and rude with my parents and really upset them. Now they won't come to visit us because they find his behaviour intimidating. However he feels an entitlement to their giving us money for things. He has always been very critical of many things I do - the house is never tidy enough, the kids are scruffy, I have made too much/too little tea, I eat too healthily etc. This has increasing impacted on the kids, as he has critised their table manners, friends, attitude to homework/helping round the house. He is particularly sensitive to noise - I gulp when I drink, make too much noise eating certain foods, I am too noisy when brushing my teeth. He has occassionaly put me down infront of people - e.g. telling me not to laugh, as what I said wasn't funny. On our own, he frequently tells me that what I have said was not interesting or makes a very disinterested "oh really" or "that's very nice for you" reply. If I complain about any of these, I can't take a joke or he turns it round to make it look that I am at fault. Occassionally, he picks on things he knows I am sensitive about and makes really underhand comments. I didn't get an internal job recently and he commented on how embarrassed I would be to go into work because everyone would be laughing at me. He once made a list of all the things he doesn't like about me and told me them. When I got upset, he told me I couldn't take a joke but I knew full well the things were true.

A few months ago he had been very low for 6 months, with bad mood swings, refusing to eat when he wasn't happy and highly critical. The behaviour was also targeted at the children with lots of shouting and arguaments, anger and criticisms. He also did a few physical acts on by youngest son - biting his finger and drawing blood, prodding, kicking, yanking, grasping arms. I had enough and, after several attempts, finally got him to listen to me. He moved into the spare bedroom, went to the Dr and got anti-depressants. The behaviour continued but once the drugs started working, his moods started to improve but the underlying comments continued. We then went on holiday with his Mum, who is very like him, and he was surprised (not shocked) by his mother's childish and frankly appauling behaviour (she assaulted my SIL). Since then, for the last month, his behaviour is noticably better. His mood has improved greatly. However, I can still see the old him under the surface. It's almost as if he has refined it a bit to look more acceptable - or maybe I'm being cynical. He's desperate to save the marriage and I'm going to relate on my own because of our difficult relationship. However he keeps saying it's a waste of money and I'm having to force my need to go. I am wearing lower tops and tighter clothes and he is making comments, but not stopping me. He is largely keeping his cool with DS but occassionally snaps, as opposed to often. He insisted I drove my DS to a club last weekend when he heard I had agreed to take DS's friend, who he doesn't like. Later he then insisted that he drove when he heard more friends were joining the lift because "I'm not having you drive 4 boys, you won't be able to do it". Both conversations were infont of the kids and I felt controlled. He is desperate to move back into our bedroom and I am holding out. However it is becoming harder as his behaviour improves to find a reason why not.

This weekend is great. I left the washing on the line all night, the kids in their PJ's this morning and had breakfast at 11am. All usually commented on. My DS, who is 11, has said it's great that we are not being controlled and has a friend over now for a sleep over. My other DS said he isn't missing him and has said he hates him to his face several times lately. He often shirks from him.

Have any of you had experiences of EA's changing behaviour and did it last? I'm feeling guilty at the moment,as I am planning to leave. He is trying to improve but I feel I have moved on already and really don't want to continue in the relationship. I feel I have less justification for leaving, whereas before his behaviour was really unacceptable. My relate counsellor says I don't need a reason to leave but I find that reasoning hard to accept if I am breaking up a family.

Sorry for the long post - but I feel my resolve slipping.

Do make that appt with the CAB.

I'd also be talking to Womens Aid as they are helpful as well and can advise re how to get out safely (you need a plan) and legalities.

I'd also be finding another Solicitor to talk to as you may have been given incorrect advice. At the very least I'd be seeking supervised access. I think too he's going to make things very difficult for you if and when you legally separate because he's going to then discover you cannot be controlled by him any more. These men do not let go of their victims easily.

he wouldn't get equal access, he would get every other weekend, therefore removing his appalling influence 12 days out of 14.

Did you tell the solicitor that he bit your child and drew blood?

I spoke to 2 solicitors about 6 months ago. They did say we could aim for every other weekend and 1 night or evening in the week but I may have to give him more access, eg another evening. They both seemed to be seeing his point of view as well as mine, however unpalatable, because he is their dad. He works from home a lot, so he drops off and picks up our youngest DS from school 3 days a week while I'm at work. This bothers me as he was chatting on about being their main carer the other day "and lets see what the courts think about that" he said. So he clearly is thinking things through. However, I pick up 2 days a week. I bath and put both to bed and sort out most of their school stuff and activities and meals. I am the one they usually want to spend time with. I see myself as the main carer with him helping on the days I work. He has changed teams this week and I'm hoping he will be out and about more often.

Colditz - is every other weekend the norm?

I listed all his nasty actions to the solicitor and the doctor. No one seems overly shocked. I have had no offers of help from the Dr - probably because H is his patient. He did contact SS, who weren't interested. The Dr wants us to go back to see him together to get a progress report on H's behaviour from me. I am reluctant. I am seeing relate on my own.

Go back to the dr to give the progress report. But YOU DON@T NEED THE DRS PERMISSION TO LEAVE HIM

Every other weekend seems to be normal amongst all the split couples I know.

Emotional abusers OFTEN threaten to get custody of the children, becaue they are the main carer (hahahahaha), or you are a bad mother
And you believe him of course because he has done such a good headjob on you - it will never happen really it wont, people will believe you they will understand they will support you!
Ring WA please, I cannot speak highly enough of them....it took me far too long to get in touch with them,only when I became worried for DD1 emotional state, they were and are marvellous!

AFAIK it would take really quite a lot for the man to get custody of any children. Access is one thing, being the resident parent is quite another. Every other weekend for visits is fairly standard, sometimes with mid-week overnight stays every week. Two ex-couples I know "share" the child(ren) 50/50 with a no-maintenance agreement. Overnight stays have an influence on the amount of maintenance that would be paid.

It is hard to think logically and with sufficient mental strength when you are still in the grips of an emotional abuser. I was married to one for a very long time so I can totally empathise. You and your children are not safe. Behaviour like this has a tendency to escalate. You should seriously consider your exit strategy before it is too late. You need money to tide you over; you need somewhere to stay (WA, one of your friends or relatives, anywhere). I'm sure that your DCs would give up all of their activities in exchange for a happy environment. It needn't be forever, just until your finances settle down.

Freda - it's the 50:50 that worries me and whether that would be forced. I have been to WA. I met 2 lovely women for coffee, who said it was classic EA but could offer little support. They can only meet people once. Perhaps it was because I said I wanted him, not me, out of the house. So I am now paying every 2 weeks for Relate counselling. The counsellor has taken my situatioin seriously and is worried about the danger. She is encouraging me to make an action plan to leave.

I can't offer any practical advice about what arrangements can be made for children, I'm afraid. The couples I know who do the 50/50 made the arrangements voluntarily, without outside intervention.

I don't think such an arrangement can be forced, but I couldn't swear to it. You could maybe post a question in the legal bit and see if anyone can help?

Your situation is a serious one. Emotional abuse is hideous and the effects last for a very long time. One bit of advice I had off a counsellor was to think about where I wanted to be in 3mths, 6mths, a year's time. Not too far into the future, just a little bit beyond the immediate difficult bit. I found it helped, especially after I'd left.

My mother was in a relationship like this, we'd all be on tenterhooks waiting to see what mood he'd be in. He would make the air in the house feel thick with tension, it wasnt good growing up in that environment. 2 of my brothers now no longer speak to my mother as a result. Your children will remember you chose to stay, if this is what you decide, and you'll have to look them in the eye as adults and give all the reasons you gave on here, none of which sound enough when you need to step up to the plate and protect them. Your boundaries seem to be very blurred on what is acceptable or not.
A bit physical, blood?? Is this the mother you want to be?

At what age can children decide if they want to see the absent parent, am thinking maybe your dc are old enough to decide for themselves, that way, if they dont want the access time with thier dad, then they sont have to go.

My father won custody of me when I was 8, I ran away from home when I was 12 and not seen him since, it was just 4 years that I suffered emotion abuse but I still bare the scars, so please get out of the marriage asap, it will be the most precious gift you can give your children, and yourself.

oh sweetheart i feel so sorry for you and your children, i was in a relationship much the same as yours, my ex was the same towards me and my children as yours, i finally got rid of him thanks to my oldest son and he got scared and left.
it's the best thing in the world to feel free again, their was a huge weight lifted of mine and my kids shoulders, they could stay out of their bedrooms after 6 pm, get up before 8 on a weekend, eat dinner without bein told off, have friends round that didnt have to phone days in advance, i could walk in the house with fish and chips without explaining why my children had a chippy, i could spend what i want without have to account for every penny, my kids actually wanted to come home after school and not stay in their bedrooms all day, i could cook without HIM standing over me, no more of him hidin food so MY kids didnt eat it, no more of him calling my kids names or me and shouting in their faces, no more being told what to watch, no more telling me all my friends are sluts and i get a bad name, no more phoning me when i'm out up to 20 times a day,
sorry just realised this is far too long.
get rid of him now, you and your family will be so much happier
good luck.

Whatever you do, do not go to any joint meeting with the H and the doctor, who seems sadly clueless about what's going on here, imo. Don't go to any joint counseling. How do you know the doctor called SS?

Fairyliquid, you have my vote (and permission) to leave, just get out and go to a shelter, forget the house and the children's activities. They will not have the happy memories about that house you want them to have. You will not starve, nor will your children. There are benefits, and you are entitled to them, and so are your children.

When you talk to solicitors, don't downplay the misery, don't say "a bit physical", or "he's never hit me". The fact that he's never hit you is irrelevant, like saying he's never gone over Niagara Falls in a barrel. What he has done is terrible, and it's significant. Call a spade a spade. Get in the habit of relating the details without any sort of editing or spinning. Of course your H thinks he can intimidate you into staying put by threatening to take the children. This is classic abuser-talk. The most he would get is the every other weekend visitation, and you might even be able to get this supervised. But be careful how you describe things, and don't shy away from spelling it out.

Thank you all for your posts again. I need a good prod and you are really helping. Legr - I followed your link to "The Loser" article. It really hit home. 13 of the 20 features are very evident and I could relate to the other 7 to varying degrees. The article says that if over 3 features are present, there are serious problems! It has helped set it in context and severity. The Sun - I can relate to your experiences with you ex P - yours sounds less sutble than mine. Well done for getting out.

I decided last night that me and the kids will go. I need to plan. I will call WA and the CAB. I will go back to a solicitor. My next relate session isn't for 2 weeks but I will really focus on leaving safely and make as many plans as possible before that. My aim though, is to get him to leave, not me. As long as I feel I can do this safely. I am going to go to see his Dr on my own to update. I also think he needs to know how unhelpful it is to suggest to an abused woman she might be just being "paranoid". It really set me back, as I was unsure how bad it really was anyway.

Good on you!!!! Proud of you for making the decision. It will be hard but don't back down. This time next year when you're relaxed and happy and your children can be themselves you'll know you did the right thing.

yes leave. for your sake adn teh children.

please give yourself permission - and i know exactly how that feels. it took seeing a counsellor to wake up to the fact i did have a choice.

yes,, read "Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft

make sure you document and diarise everyhting from today, what the kids said, what your H did/said. keep a good log - you will need it to show court/solicitor/cafcass.

go for a supervised contact order. your ds are very clear in their views.

be warned - it is a long road - and even tho i physically moved away in april 2008 the saga goes on. with issues over contact, sorting out financial ties etc, which he prevaricates and cries and victimises himself...

but - you will feel so much happier, able to close your own front door and give your children a safe and secure place to be, away from his control and abuse.

please read the messages again and listen to them and act. is there one person in real life who would support you? who sees it for what it is?

presumably your counsellor supports you?

"I am going to go to see his Dr on my own to update. I also think he needs to know how unhelpful it is to suggest to an abused woman she might be just being "paranoid". It really set me back, as I was unsure how bad it really was anyway."

please do not see this GP again - is there another in the same practice?

i would make a formal complaint tho - i had to do simialr to my exP's GP whoc alled em jsut before we ahd a court heairng to tell me "your exP is seriously depressed you know, he asked me to tell you"

i made formal complaint and it was recorded...i pointed out in writing that gp practice knew of my complaints of abuse and it was not appropriate for the GP to call me and try and persuade me that it was all down to depression.... i did get an apology

oh and the "get him to leave" - have you broached that?

i naively thought that would work - as he complained so much about me, criticisms etc it seemed obvious he was unhappy with me and the dcs - therefore would willingly up and leave.

of course, he did not wish to...so in the end i had to leave. he didnt accept it and became violent...

it becomes the last recourse they have when you stand up to them

yes, i doubt HE will leave(willing anyway), my ex (wasnt his house) tried to get me to leave!! waaaay before he left he said"if you lose *** don't bother coming back" so i laughed and he said"no i'm serious"( i was doing him a favour that day) and he repeatly told me i would be leaving not HIM.
please don't go and see the same G.P he obviously has no idea, see a different one,i'm so happy you have made this decision it will be better for you and your children, you will see the differance

I've been following your thread and Attila's post at Sunday lunchtime could have word for word described my situation. In the end I left with DD; left behind the house, the lifestyle etc. The thing is it really isn't worth it and he had started turning people in the village onto all his stories.

By moving away to a larger town, I don't have to worry about what people might or might not know. I worried a lot about my daughter being disrupted but she is just so much happier and relaxed. Kids completely pick up on the atmosphere and although she wasn't showing many obvious signs, the difference is incredible. The difference in me is incredible as well.

My ex started seeing the same GP as me and feeding the depression line. I told the GP it was abuse, he tried to say my partner really did care and we should try joint counselling. I switched GP and she told me to leave - I took her advice. Having someone impartial say it really motivated me.

Plan a little everyday and you will get there. It's the best thing you can do for your kids. Also keep a diary. Oh, our contact is every other weekend as well.

My oldest DS is 11. He is unhappy with the current situation. He realises he is being controlled and is very assertive back. I think he would chose to base himself with me and visit H every other weekend etc.

You are all right - I will see another GP at the surgery , who is very nice. Although I'm not sure what she can do because I'm not depressed and H is not her patient.

I think I would have the support of many people in our village. I have been detaching from our relationship for a while now and have built up a group of friends locally. It is so nice to have friends to go out with. I didn't for years as it was difficult to agree it with him. He has only aquaintences locally and my friends hsbands find him "difficult to talk to".

Queen - I remenber you posting on a thread a few months ago. How long ago did you make the move and how much did you plan? It's easy for me to say I must end the relationship but it's the doing that I have really got to stick at! I know I will find that hard. I will get my sister on board. She lives miles away but is very supportive.

Dearest fairyliquid,
I only joined here a few days ago, reading your story was like writing my own (which I haven't done yet) I know exactly what you have been through and are going through...

I was on the verge of leaving last year and then I bottled it because I didn't want to destroy everyone's Christmas... my husband however did take things on board, and has been a little better - but deep down he will never change and I doubt yours will either. Last week he only called me an ass*e once, only called my youngest 'stupid' once - it was a good week for us........ but that doesn't it make it right. And most importantly it hasn't changed how I feel about him. Once I loved him, by Christmas I was full of hate, now I actually feel very little, I even believe that my kids (7) will understand it even if they are saddened by it. We have a wonderful time when we are on our own, when he's around, its like the suns gone in...

So this week I am going to see a solicitor. My H refuses to leave and I feel I can't because of kids, dog, cat and irregular income etc. I have tried for years to get my life sorted and be financially independent of him, but in this climate its hard.

This morning I was losing my resolve and now reading your post and everyone elses comments/advice I KNOW I have to do this. All I can say is that I think you will know when your day comes too.... I wish I'd had the guts to do it years ago, but I wasn't in a good place then either (we lost a child) so its been one day at a time....

Please cross your fingers for me that I will make the appointment - and I will do the same for you, that you find your way soon.

Please know you are not alone.
Lots of love
V x

p.s. Make sure you clear your computer history .... my H used to bug the computer so he could see what I was saying about him... and if yours has any IT experience, he'll find it. Be safe x

yes i agree with voilet, mine did too, said it was to moniter the kids even though only the youngest was allowed on it.

please be tough, i know it's hard but you can do it

pps. just read my post back - my kids are aged 7, I don't HAVE 7!!

GP cannot do much - but it is all about creating a trail of official recognition of the issues, it will be recorded that you went to the GP to talk about the stress you under. and your concerns about your H's behaviour.

there is a confidentiality thing - but you might also say that you happy for the information to be shared (or not) with your H's GP. if he is sitll on anti-depressants then the information could be relevant. your H may get more depressed a tyou leaving - or just more angry who knows.

you should also mention to GP about your children's stress. record that you may need for them to see a family therapist later on.

again, create a formal trail of paperwork of your concerns. that this wont be a case of you suddenly going cuckoo and deciding to leave one sunny morning...