Can an emotional abuser really change?

[fairyliquid123]

Hi - my H is away for the weekend, so I have the chance to get on the comupter without him seeing and could do with a bit of advice. I have posted my situation on Mumsnet a little while ago, so some of you may recognise me me. One MN suggested I start my own thread - so here goes!

We've been married 17 years and were married within a year of meeting. H was really full-on and proposed within 3 months. As soon as I accepted, he started to tell me I wasn't allowed to wear short skirts and low tops and would peer down everything I wore to make sure he couldn't see anything. Polo necks, button-top blouses and jeans became the only options. We moved 200 miles away near his family and I didn't keep in touch with my friends because he didn't seem to want me to. I occassionally went out with my colleagues, but it usually caused trouble. We have never had any joint friends as I find he makes little effort and has a reason for disliking most people we know. He has always been jealous of other men and makes comments about what other men are like and what they would like to do to me and calls local shopkeepers my "boyfriends" in front of the kids. When I go out, he asks if I "got off" with anyone. He became increasingly difficult and rude with my parents and really upset them. Now they won't come to visit us because they find his behaviour intimidating. However he feels an entitlement to their giving us money for things. He has always been very critical of many things I do - the house is never tidy enough, the kids are scruffy, I have made too much/too little tea, I eat too healthily etc. This has increasing impacted on the kids, as he has critised their table manners, friends, attitude to homework/helping round the house. He is particularly sensitive to noise - I gulp when I drink, make too much noise eating certain foods, I am too noisy when brushing my teeth. He has occassionaly put me down infront of people - e.g. telling me not to laugh, as what I said wasn't funny. On our own, he frequently tells me that what I have said was not interesting or makes a very disinterested "oh really" or "that's very nice for you" reply. If I complain about any of these, I can't take a joke or he turns it round to make it look that I am at fault. Occassionally, he picks on things he knows I am sensitive about and makes really underhand comments. I didn't get an internal job recently and he commented on how embarrassed I would be to go into work because everyone would be laughing at me. He once made a list of all the things he doesn't like about me and told me them. When I got upset, he told me I couldn't take a joke but I knew full well the things were true.

A few months ago he had been very low for 6 months, with bad mood swings, refusing to eat when he wasn't happy and highly critical. The behaviour was also targeted at the children with lots of shouting and arguaments, anger and criticisms. He also did a few physical acts on by youngest son - biting his finger and drawing blood, prodding, kicking, yanking, grasping arms. I had enough and, after several attempts, finally got him to listen to me. He moved into the spare bedroom, went to the Dr and got anti-depressants. The behaviour continued but once the drugs started working, his moods started to improve but the underlying comments continued. We then went on holiday with his Mum, who is very like him, and he was surprised (not shocked) by his mother's childish and frankly appauling behaviour (she assaulted my SIL). Since then, for the last month, his behaviour is noticably better. His mood has improved greatly. However, I can still see the old him under the surface. It's almost as if he has refined it a bit to look more acceptable - or maybe I'm being cynical. He's desperate to save the marriage and I'm going to relate on my own because of our difficult relationship. However he keeps saying it's a waste of money and I'm having to force my need to go. I am wearing lower tops and tighter clothes and he is making comments, but not stopping me. He is largely keeping his cool with DS but occassionally snaps, as opposed to often. He insisted I drove my DS to a club last weekend when he heard I had agreed to take DS's friend, who he doesn't like. Later he then insisted that he drove when he heard more friends were joining the lift because "I'm not having you drive 4 boys, you won't be able to do it". Both conversations were infont of the kids and I felt controlled. He is desperate to move back into our bedroom and I am holding out. However it is becoming harder as his behaviour improves to find a reason why not.

This weekend is great. I left the washing on the line all night, the kids in their PJ's this morning and had breakfast at 11am. All usually commented on. My DS, who is 11, has said it's great that we are not being controlled and has a friend over now for a sleep over. My other DS said he isn't missing him and has said he hates him to his face several times lately. He often shirks from him.

Have any of you had experiences of EA's changing behaviour and did it last? I'm feeling guilty at the moment,as I am planning to leave. He is trying to improve but I feel I have moved on already and really don't want to continue in the relationship. I feel I have less justification for leaving, whereas before his behaviour was really unacceptable. My relate counsellor says I don't need a reason to leave but I find that reasoning hard to accept if I am breaking up a family.

Sorry for the long post - but I feel my resolve slipping.

Thanks for the advice and sharing your experiences. I've just read Yournotalone's post and felt even more inspired to leave.

Also, H is away tonight and DS1 started to talk about things. Out of the blue he told me I look sad and almost depressed all the time. He said he feels depressed because life at home isn't fun. He said that me and H don't get on. He said he would like a fun day out as a family where people don;t get stressed and disagree. (The disagreements tend to be between H and DSs. I tend not to bother anymore). I didn't prompt him for any of this information, he just suddenly said it. He is 11. It shows our children do notice relationship problems and when things in the house are not as they sould be.

Yet another reason to get serious about changing things.

Oh, bless your DS, what a little treasure.

He is indeed a treasure. DS1 had a major meltdown when I brought him and DS2 back from school. It started over an issue with DS2 but resulted in a major trashing of his bedroom and upset. When I calmed him down, he said it wan't about DS2 but his life and really opened up. I've promised him not to share what he tells me with my friends, so I won't say any more but it really made me think. He is so perceptive.

Dear Fairyliquid, The trashing of a bedroom sounds all to familier and even though it was 23 years ago the visions are and sounds are still with me today. Yes abuse in any form is dangerous and can be passed down through generations, I left a more indepth answer to you on my thread,please take care because your little ones need you, your in my thoughts xxx

Hi - I will read it now Yournotalone - thanks. I'm going away for a week on holiday now. I have no access to a PC so I'll be beack on next week.

Hi - I'm back from a lovely few days away. Just me and DSs. H was great when we got back on Wednesday - he had decorated a room, hoovered and been to supermarket. He obviously has decided that he missed us and wants life to be back to his idea of normality. I am being perfectly pleasant to him and complimented the decorating etc. However, it doesn't change things. I was right to be cautious. I had a bad day yesterday with him. He opened a nice tin of biscuits his mum gave us and he told me twice that I wasn't having any because his mum gave them to him to eat and he was going to hide them in his bedroom. DS2 heard. He gave one to DS2 and himself then clamped the lid shut and sat with his elbows on the tin (just to ensure I didn't try to have one, I presume!). I ignored him and helped my self to a plate of fruit and he then sneered at me that I think that biscuits aren't good enough for me because they are too unhealthy. If I had challenged him, I would have been told I can't take a joke. Am I over sensitive and humourless? I can't see musch humour in continuous beghaviour like that! There were several other incidents including getting really annoyed at me being on the phone for 10 mins as it interrupted his TV watching. He stormed out of the room complaining about me to DS1.
I'm worried about DS1. He's very moody and blaiming others. He gets aggressive and jealous towards DS2. He definately tries to control me. - especially my time by saying things to make me feel guilty if I don't spend time with him. He also physically stops me from doing what I need to do - eg. leaving a room, so I stay with him. IS this normal 11 year old behaviour/pre-teen moods etc?
My job has definatley gone, so I am having to apply for another. MOre pressure when I don;t need it. I'm impatient. If it wasn't for the job, I wouldn't be putting up with this off H.

I'm glad that you had a great holiday - but happier to see that emotionally, nothings changed - because decorating aside, it seems that nothing has, so please don't wobble!

I get the "can't you take a joke/oversensitive" card played all the time.

this morning my 6yo wanted to go on the computer - I told him to wait til I'd left for work (the PC adn I share the spare room!) then joked with him not to say "hurry up and go to work". Then I heard H whispering, goading him to say " Hurry up and go to work Mummy so I can go on the PC). I told H not to talk to him like that and got the same "its only a joke" - my point being that DS2 probably wouldn't get the joke. And bless him, he didn't say anything.

I'd earlier taken H a cup of tea (why? I have no idea, it just feels mean to only make 1!) and he wanted another. He told DS1 to "tell Mummy to make me another tea".
"No" said DS1....... I hate him for using them the way he does - all in the name of a joke..... its crap!

I have regular conversations with my DS's how they should and shouldn't speak to people - it completely conflicts with their fathers behaviour towards me and I know its confusing them. Your DS's (I seem to recall) are older - it does sound like there's alot of turmoil in their heads...

Stick with me hon - we will get out.....

I spent all year looking for another (decent) job, now I dont' care - one way or another we'll all be fine - I just need to be free.... and so do you.

Take care x

Elbows on the biscuit tin? Oh please! What a pathetic arsehole.
I get the can't take a joke thing aswell. I don't live with my twat anymore thank God. The mind games are so tiring.
Respect to all of you still going through the shit. People think we stay because we're weak and feeble, but I'm neither of those things. I was pushed around a few times for not obeying him, once he told me to get out of the kitchen and kept pushing me out and I kept coming back in calling him names etc. Not backing down kept me sane. Keep strong in your own ways. Spitting in tea feels good by the way.

He is a very very disturbed man.

He is so far down the line he will never change, a day here and there of "good behaviour" means nothing.

He is not "joking" with you. He is fucking with you. Trust your instincts.

Your son is learning fast from his dad.

You know what you need to do.

you are right. He is very disturbed and angry with me and the world. Violet - your tea example is so true. This morning, for the first time ever in our marriage ,my H said he didn't want a cup of tea!!!! Unheard of!

Kids know much more than we think they do

Good luck with moving your life on

I understand the desire that he will just improve and everything will be ok or the need to find a reason for it - like depression but 17 years of this behaviour is not just depression. You do not deserve this.

My DH had v severe depression to the point of hospitalisation a few years ago - he was quite unpleasant to me at times when he was ill and it wasn't nice but the abuse you and your DCs are suffering is in a different league.

Can people change? I like to think so but with these sort of abusers it seems vanishingly rare.

Thinking about you

Please get your DS into any counseling or therapy WA can recommend, and fast. His acting out has to be stopped. He desperately needs help. What you have described is not normal preteen behaviour. It is the behaviour of a boy whose father has had a terrible influence on him.

DS1 is very confused. He says very negative things about H. I feel stuck in the middle because I don't want to defend H's obviously unacceptable behaviour and I sometimes I want to point it out to DS1, so he has a chance of himself having good relationships, but i don't want to turn him against his Dad. Its a fine and ticky line. I am going to get him counselling.

Violet - are you still making plans and what are your plans about a job?

H simply isn't talking to me anymore by the looks of things. He's said about 2 words to me since her realised I wasn;t going to go running back into his arms after returning from holiday. I spoke to hs counsellor. She clearly couldn't break confidentiality but I called her to know why she has suggested we both see her together. I'm still not clear why. I stated my views on couples counselling in our situation and she agreed that is her usual policy too. However she then she went on to say that although our relationship isn't the route of his problem. it mainly plays out in our relationship. I'm not sure I agree. He is angry /dislikes most people - but they don't have to see him so often. She said it might help to talk about why this happens together and get both sides. She then said couples counselling doesn't have to be about staying together, but ensuring there can be a relationship of sorts for the children. I think she was understanding my thinking. Might that be the place to say how I really feel, with car packed and ready incase he gets nasty? Its tempting, as it would remove the risk of just the 2 of us alone together in the house.

Your DS is one seriously disturbed individual primarily because of what his father is doing to him. He is emotionally harming this boy. Not just to say you.
He will destroy you all emotionally if you stay.

The rot set in years ago; him proposing to you within 3 months should have set off so many alarm bells in you.

You know what you need to do Fairy - protect your children and divorce your abusive H asap. This man groomed you really, you probably at the time thought he was your knight in shining armour (he was very full on and after proposing within three months his true nature emerged. You unfortunately did not walk away then). You may well have been emotionally vulnerable and or with low self esteem/self worth too which is what these men look for. Such women are easier to control. You have allowed yourself to be controlled. As it turns out as well you were emotionally vulnerable when you met him.

The "old" him was a damaged him, the damaged him being caused by his own mother (you do not mention his dad). There are likely other factors too quite apart from his depression which in itself has not caused his controlling ways. What I am trying to say here is that his problems are deeply ingrained and cannot be fixed.

Look at his mother as well; he learnt an awful lot from her whilst growing up in terms of control. Unfortunately (and that's an understatement) you went on to marry and have children by him.

Look at your children too, really look at them. What are you both (yes both) teaching them about relationships here?. You are both imparting damaging lessons to them, lessons that they will likely go onto repeat as adults in their own relationships if you do not act but bumble on.

An absolute and resounding NO to any joint counselling with him at all, it sounds like he has wrapped his finger around this counsellor. You already know why he is absuive like this - this all goes back to his own mother who was abused emotionally as a child herself. I would also go as far to say your H has a personality disorder along with this woman.

He by his very actions too has destroyed any chance of your children wanting any sort of relationship with him when he is out of their lives on a daily basis.

Two generations have already been affected, don't let your kids become the third generation to be sacrificed at the altar of abuse. You don't have to remain there at all with him.

Don't feel guilty or sorry for him!!. He feels not a jot for you and likely never has, he only sees you all as possessions to be used and discarded as and when.

Thank you Attila - everything you say rings so true. I have asked the Dr to look into BPD, as I'm sure that is what her and his Mum have. There are also signs of some NDP in both and Histrionic PD in his Mum. The Dr has done little since June, although he is receiving CBT finally and is on anti-depressants.

His Dad is an angry doormat. He has had all life squashed out of him. He supports his wife always - dispite what he sees but does sometines complain about her actions towards him. But he aupports her 100% when others challenge her, e.g. 2 sister-in-laws. He even is angry at my SIL after MIL hit her! He says she deserved it because she was avoiding them both on our holiday together. SIL does avoid MIL because she can't stand her and doesn't want conflict. DS1 avoids MIL and FIL and is negative towards his Dad. We are having a lot of oppositional behaviour, tantrums and some panic attacks at the moment. He's also got a bit of OCD about being ill nad washes his hands all the time = anxiety.

I was waiting for my job interview in mid Nov to make a move. I just want to give myself the best chance of supporting 2 DCs financially. If H is like this now , what will he be like if I ask him to leave? Or, if I have to move out, I will be in a state for my interview. I can't risk this, so I need to wait 2 weeks but plan in the meantime. I feel a great sense of impatience. I think he knows I'm planning as he has suddenly taken more interest in DS2 after years of really struggling with him and often quite nasty behaviour towards him.

You sound as though you feel threatened by your h. You need to decide whether your childrens' welfare is more important to you than your relationship with your husband. It seems as though you have been going through that recently.

My parental family is fantastically dysfunctional, and my siblings and I have suffered massively because my parents stayed (and are still staying) together. My father's siblings who are separated or divorced have children who have fared better. I think it is because those children felt as though they had someone to protect them.

It is so hard to move on. You are doing all the right things. Keep it up and you will get where you want to be.

hi Fairy,

I was fascinated to read that your H has had an awkward relationship with your DS2 - exactly the same yet again.

This time last year we were all in a 'bad place' and I wouldn't to anything until I had a job that would offer us security that I thought we needed. It came, it didn't work out (co. went under) and I was back to square one again. I even looked at rental properties but couldn't bring myself to rip the family apart....

In my opinion I completely wasted a year trying to do the right thing! Now I've thrown caution to the wind. I'm temping, crap money but learning a new trade where there is alot more local opportunity, so having spent a year in one industry I'm now job hunting off the back of it. The money will never be great, I'm kinda hoping that being a single Mum will help fill the shortfall.

Either way, I am so desperate to get out now, that it doesn't matter. I know that me and the kids will be warm, fed and with a roof over our head. Don't know where or how but even the uncertainty doesn't worry me like it did last year.

Although I'm pressing on with the divorce we are still under the same roof, tho we avoid each other as much as poss. But for now apart from the odd wind-up, its ok. But I think he thinks it'll blow over so he's in for a shock soon and then it'll all change.

I don't know why but something in my head just switched - all the things I worried about last year don't seem to matter anymore. I just want out. End of and I know this time I won't change my mind (I think!).

At the end of the day, your boys sound deeply unhappy. I think in your shoes I'd just get out - in time they will make whatever relationship is left - work - if that's what they all want. But it does sound to me that they'd be better off without him - at least for now.

Its quiet in our camp at teh moment but as I type I'm very aware I could be taking my own advice in the next few weeks.

We owe it to our kids hon, easy or otherwise.
Be strong xx

Fairyliquid, I still read all the threads, you all keep me going, please look at my thread and see how far ive come, if I can help at all this would be it.

with much thoughts xxxx

myinnercore.......youarenotalone

"She said it might help to talk about why this happens together and get both sides."

This therapist is unbelievably unprofessional. It is never recommended to have an abused spouse sit down with her abuser for a therapy session. There are not two sides to this. And sitting down with him in her office and telling your side of the experience would be incredibly dangerous for you. Don't do it.

I've just had half an hour while he's out to update on all the other related threads. This is all so depressing. Why do so many women (and children) have to put up with so much appauling behaviour? I wonder how many other women are treated the same. Society has no idea what goes on. Some friends of mine don't see the seriousness and misery he causes. I started to tell a few friends beyond immediate family but now only confide in 2 friend who have experienced similar. Professionals I have told just minimise it and move on. Thank goodness for MN and all you lovely ladies out there who understand and take time to listen and care. Thank you. I have my MIL coming round soon - oh joy - 2 EA's to deal with in 1 afternoon!

I survived MIL on Sunday! H is being reasonably pleasant at the moment after 2 weekends of scarcely talking to me. Last Saturday he was particulary EA with lots of nasty little comments and telling me what I could and couldn't do. I saw my counsellor on Monday and discussed my next few weeks, which are to secure my job and plan next relationship moves. I am very sure that the relationship does not work for me or the kids and I have to take control of my life. Job first though, or it will all be too much. I had a pretty reassuring talk with my boss yesterday, but I will still have to prove myself and will need to spend time preparing for the interview process over the next 2 weeks and park the relationship problems. I discussed strategies for minimising the impact on the kids with my counsellor, e.g. sticking up for them more - but in a non-confrontational way; and being around them as much as possible to reduce his negative influence so they feel supported. He has been partucularly angry and aggressive towards DS1 recently because he won't do as H tells him to. I discussed how I can reassure DS that I am there to support him when H is aggressive and point out to H that yes, DS1 should do his homework, but we should go about asjing him to in a less aggressive manner. I'll have to see if this can ease things a little for the meantime!

H has just handed me a letter he has written this morning about him and our relationship. He apologises for the first time ever and says he really wants to stay in the family and be my husband. He loves me etc. He mentions the internet sites he visited, his treatment of my parents and his moods - related to feeling hopeless and depressed. He doesn't once mention his treatment of me and the kids, the control and anger, the belittling and critisms. He has also handed me the note on the morning of a day he agreed to take the DCs out so I could prepare for my job interview in peace. So, of course, I haven't prepared but thought about his letter - bad timing or intentional I wonder? His solution moving forward includes me going to couselling with him. He seems to be placing an emphasis on me helping him get better by this. I am still set on leaving but a final apology and some awareness from him has made me feel a bit guily and wobble. I can suddenly picture some sort of life together but not sure what, as I don't think I could ever be intimate with him and I can't see a huge change in his behaviour. He is deperate to get back in our bedroom and I just don't want it. Now I feel we should talk but I don't want a whole heap of upset over the next week and a half, before my interview. Has he timed this deliberately when I am particularly vulnerable? I've been in my job/organisation 17 years and could lose my job and financial security in 1 interview. Why did he wait 5 months since I first tried to speak and sort things out to finally make a serious move? He has opened the door to me asking him to leave but the timing is poor. I also think he has not mentioned the main relationship issues, the EA. HE has just mentioned the porn and treatment of my parents. He has not acknowledged his control of my life, and all the negative behaviours. He also wrote a big sectionon suicide and admitted it may be to put attention on himself. I'm off to prepare for my interview but will keep checking MN, if anyone has any thoughts.

Fairyliquid - have read most of the thread and think you are getting excellent advice and people willing to share intimate details of similar experiences to yours, including someone who suffered as a child from an abusive man.

However I am sorry if I have this wrong, but I don't think any of this is really "reaching" you for some reason and I don't think you will leave. If you were prepared to let him abuse one of your children physically and emotionally abuse you all, what more will it take for you to leave.

I think you know as much as there is to know about your H's capacity for manipulation, deviousness and emotional abuse, so is there really any point in trying to analyse it any further. I am sorry to sound harsh but your children are suffering by the day and this emotional harm will affect them through their life. You need to get away from this man - NOW. I know it might be difficult but not impossible as many other MNs have testified.

You have a choice about what you do but your children don't - the only person who can protect them is you - why aren't you doing that instead of continuing to try to analyse your H's motives/behaviour etc. I know this sounds harsh but I just don't understand women who allow their children to be abused in the eay they are doing.

last line of last post should read "I just don't understand women who allow their children to be abused in the way that you are doing."