Can an emotional abuser really change?

[fairyliquid123]

Hi - my H is away for the weekend, so I have the chance to get on the comupter without him seeing and could do with a bit of advice. I have posted my situation on Mumsnet a little while ago, so some of you may recognise me me. One MN suggested I start my own thread - so here goes!

We've been married 17 years and were married within a year of meeting. H was really full-on and proposed within 3 months. As soon as I accepted, he started to tell me I wasn't allowed to wear short skirts and low tops and would peer down everything I wore to make sure he couldn't see anything. Polo necks, button-top blouses and jeans became the only options. We moved 200 miles away near his family and I didn't keep in touch with my friends because he didn't seem to want me to. I occassionally went out with my colleagues, but it usually caused trouble. We have never had any joint friends as I find he makes little effort and has a reason for disliking most people we know. He has always been jealous of other men and makes comments about what other men are like and what they would like to do to me and calls local shopkeepers my "boyfriends" in front of the kids. When I go out, he asks if I "got off" with anyone. He became increasingly difficult and rude with my parents and really upset them. Now they won't come to visit us because they find his behaviour intimidating. However he feels an entitlement to their giving us money for things. He has always been very critical of many things I do - the house is never tidy enough, the kids are scruffy, I have made too much/too little tea, I eat too healthily etc. This has increasing impacted on the kids, as he has critised their table manners, friends, attitude to homework/helping round the house. He is particularly sensitive to noise - I gulp when I drink, make too much noise eating certain foods, I am too noisy when brushing my teeth. He has occassionaly put me down infront of people - e.g. telling me not to laugh, as what I said wasn't funny. On our own, he frequently tells me that what I have said was not interesting or makes a very disinterested "oh really" or "that's very nice for you" reply. If I complain about any of these, I can't take a joke or he turns it round to make it look that I am at fault. Occassionally, he picks on things he knows I am sensitive about and makes really underhand comments. I didn't get an internal job recently and he commented on how embarrassed I would be to go into work because everyone would be laughing at me. He once made a list of all the things he doesn't like about me and told me them. When I got upset, he told me I couldn't take a joke but I knew full well the things were true.

A few months ago he had been very low for 6 months, with bad mood swings, refusing to eat when he wasn't happy and highly critical. The behaviour was also targeted at the children with lots of shouting and arguaments, anger and criticisms. He also did a few physical acts on by youngest son - biting his finger and drawing blood, prodding, kicking, yanking, grasping arms. I had enough and, after several attempts, finally got him to listen to me. He moved into the spare bedroom, went to the Dr and got anti-depressants. The behaviour continued but once the drugs started working, his moods started to improve but the underlying comments continued. We then went on holiday with his Mum, who is very like him, and he was surprised (not shocked) by his mother's childish and frankly appauling behaviour (she assaulted my SIL). Since then, for the last month, his behaviour is noticably better. His mood has improved greatly. However, I can still see the old him under the surface. It's almost as if he has refined it a bit to look more acceptable - or maybe I'm being cynical. He's desperate to save the marriage and I'm going to relate on my own because of our difficult relationship. However he keeps saying it's a waste of money and I'm having to force my need to go. I am wearing lower tops and tighter clothes and he is making comments, but not stopping me. He is largely keeping his cool with DS but occassionally snaps, as opposed to often. He insisted I drove my DS to a club last weekend when he heard I had agreed to take DS's friend, who he doesn't like. Later he then insisted that he drove when he heard more friends were joining the lift because "I'm not having you drive 4 boys, you won't be able to do it". Both conversations were infont of the kids and I felt controlled. He is desperate to move back into our bedroom and I am holding out. However it is becoming harder as his behaviour improves to find a reason why not.

This weekend is great. I left the washing on the line all night, the kids in their PJ's this morning and had breakfast at 11am. All usually commented on. My DS, who is 11, has said it's great that we are not being controlled and has a friend over now for a sleep over. My other DS said he isn't missing him and has said he hates him to his face several times lately. He often shirks from him.

Have any of you had experiences of EA's changing behaviour and did it last? I'm feeling guilty at the moment,as I am planning to leave. He is trying to improve but I feel I have moved on already and really don't want to continue in the relationship. I feel I have less justification for leaving, whereas before his behaviour was really unacceptable. My relate counsellor says I don't need a reason to leave but I find that reasoning hard to accept if I am breaking up a family.

Sorry for the long post - but I feel my resolve slipping.

I left on 27th July - so just two months ago but it seems a lifetime.

A couple of things pushed me from planning it to doing it and MN was very influential. It was flibbertyjibbet who posted her mantra on a thread 'people split up every day, today it happens to be me'. This just ran and ran through my head - and I knew I had more than enough reasons to leave, I actually think you have more. That biting your son thing has appalled me; you must tell your new GP this.

Then it was the GP telling me 'you have to leave'. She had absolutely nothing to gain by saying it, so it really affected me. Then I was standing in the kitchen looking at the calendar and just thought, well when? So I picked a day. Really as simple as that.

Every day I pulled out a mortgage statement, piece of jewellery, photo and put it under the bed (which he was sleeping on!). I then knew I could leave at any time just grabbing what was there. I have actually been able to return and got all my stuff moved out - he was very amenable (that's how much he really lurved me, it was all a pack of lies). The police will also escort you if you want to do this.

Dear Violet - Thank you for your kind message. I can see we are both in the same situation and can certainly support each other. It is so hard when you are really resolved and then they change a bit and are clearly trying. Your boundaries of what is exceptable become warped because it is not as bad as before. I have no idea what a normal relationship looks like after 17 years. However, looking back over the past 2 days, since his return, has shown several interesting incidents. Me and him were pushing a mattress back onto my DS's top bunk. DS was on the top bunk and sat on the mattress for a joke. I noticed but H kept pushing a bit longer until he saw me an DS giggling. He was not put under any undue physical stress. He stared at me, not laughing and said "do you think that is funny". I said it was DS's little joke, no harm caused. He looked at me and said "I had forgotton how evil you can be". DS was there. Yesterday, he asked me if I had enjoyed playing with DS in garden. I replied that I had done. He said "there is no need to be funny about it". I asked him to repeat what he had said as I wasn't sure I had heard correctly. He said it again. I asked why he thought I was being funny. He said "I just did" and walked off. This morning I went down to unload the dishwasher and was making DS's breakfast. He came into kitchen, looked at the untouched kettle and the first thing he said to me was "the first thing you do in the morning is put the kettle on for tea". There have been other things too. He constantly calls me "gorgeous" and "darling" very overemphasised. Grrr!
Violet - check out solicitors that specialise in family law and offer a free first hour. There are several in my area.
Queen and Cestla - thanks for your advice. He's away again Wed night so I will start to get organised.
I clear the search google history and the history lists. Do I need to do anything else. I never tap into the address bar.

I completely understand fairyliquid! Starting to worry that we're married to the same person - mine goes away too and sounds like a twin to yours!!

I get called ars, witch, that he hates me (infront of the kids) oh and don't get me started on the kettle........ every morning he'd shout down "where's my tea" and I would dutifully take him up a cuppa - not because he told me I should or because I wanted to, but because I felt mean only making one for myself. I asked him not to talk to me like that, but he didn't stop so I have. And I still feel uncomfortable not doing it - but I am apparently the most selfish person he has ever known - so I might aswell now start acting like it and earning his critisisms!!

Like you, I tried to save and get ready to move out and nearly did just before Xmas but I couldn't go through with it and have now decided to keep things as normal as poss for the kids up until the last moment. I was so sure that I must be financially independent and sorted before I upheaved them, but now the tide has changed, I have no vision of what I will come out with or where I will go. All I know is that we will be fine.... they will never be cold, hungry, naked or uneducated... and I will fight hard if he tries to take them away.

I have found a good lawyer who will help with legal aid application so I feel ok... for now. But I'm completely bricking it when I have to tell him...

Thanks for listening, be careful with passports and start collecting papers. I ahve the passports but he has taken and hidden them before, and as for the paperwork on our house, I think he stashes it all up in the loft. It will be interesting to find out what exactly it is he's hiding.... I'm quite sure I'm in for a few surprises!

Onwards and upwards x

Hi Violet and everyone else - I had to giggle at your description of the tea. They must be the same man! I've never seen so much fuss over cups of tea as in our house. It becomes a major crime but, if I complain, I'm cut down or have no sense of humour. That was the first criticism of my parents - they didn't always offer him a drink if he was in the house. They expected him to be comfortable enough to occassionally help himself I expect.

Violet - Follow Legrandfromage's link on this thread, posted on Sunday. It takes you to Dr Carver's site. Under articles there are 2 really interesting ones. One about personality disorders - loads rings true. And one about the Stokeholme Syndrome and why its hard to leave abusers/controllers - and the reasons we give, which are at the end of the article. Financial, lifestyle and children reasons being 3 of them - which it looks like both you and me have been struggling with.

Can any MNers please help with my question earlier today about computer histories? I hope I am doing enough. He is very PC literate, so it's a worry. Mind you, he wasn't literate enough to hide his excessive porn and voyeuism usage earlier in the year. The history just popped up when I accidently clicked on something. I followed it for 5 months! I think he thought I was too computer illiterate to ever find it. It was on the laptop that DS and his friends use too - so if I can find it by accident... He's being more careful now I told him I knew. What upset me most was the fact that he is obsessive about me covering up to an extreme, yet gets his kicks looking at websites like "upskirt.com". Sorry I'm ranting. I'll sign of for now!

Just to say thank you to you all so far, you really are helping put things into perspective and tightening my resolve.

Hi fairyliquid123, had to post as although I have no particular words of wisdom, I too am living with emotional abuse. A lot of what you have written is very similar to my situation also, and I wanted to say I understand how you must be feeling after being with him for such a long time.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but why do you want to stay in current house and have him leave (rather than you leaving with the dcs)?

Keep going to your relate sessions alone, and seeking advice. I have found doing small steps each day is really acheiveable and it boosts you knowing you are one step closer. Good luck.

By watching him do things like 'draw blood' from your son YOU are being an accessory to the abuse. ( sorry but this is true. Turning a blind eye is totally unacceptable)

Leave him for the sake of your kids if you can't do it for yourself.

They won't thank you for staying.

Can you delete the cookies on the computer too? Sites you visit leave a cookie. You can possibly do this through the tools, not 100% sure about this though.

Plus, here are some links:
about personality disorders
and about abuse

Thanks Mananxiety for the link to the sites. The Abuse site is particularly useful. I have thought for a while he has BPD but he hasn't been offered a phychological assessment. LittleMummy - I understand what you are saying,. i don't turn a blind eye and do say what I think about things like that. But you are right, as he is clearly able and prepared to do such things and they happen in an instant. I haven't been able to stop them at the time because he is unpredicatable and it happens so quickly. The only way to prevent it is to go - I know. He's away tonight, so I will call my sister to help me plan.

Hi Fairyliquid - are you still around? I notice you haven't input on this link...
I have been flat out at work during the last 2 weeks but just wanted to say that I have finally told my husband that I want to Divorce and asked the lawyer to go ahead with proceedings.

Although I've been rumbling at him all year that its what I wanted, when it came to the crunch I was a complete chicken and did it by email - and I apologised for the method but said it was because I didn't want yet another major blow up...

I have been called selfish, mean, but saddest of all, that I am going to destroy our 'happy, well balanced' children... Its taken me years to get to this point but now I've said it, it feels so much better. I seem to be quite indifferent about it but am sure reality will kick in soon....... but finally I can see a light at the end of the tunnel, albeit still a difficult journey ahead....

I won't leave the house and nor will he but I have asked that we deal with it cordially... to drop the name calling like, I'm evil, witch, mean, selfish (often within earshot of my kids)

I just had a look at the above website as I used to wonder if he was bipolar - but its the NPD that really struck home with me.

I hope you're (all!) ok - I'm sure I'll be posting some very low moments too but today I feel strong..

Love to you all
V

Oh dear god, leave this man. The fact that you even think you owe him anything at all says how much he's influenced you over the years. When people treat you like shit, you owe them nothing. Nada. No explanation, no support, no cup of tea, nothing.

Can I also just make an observation. I've read heaps of threads on here from women like you going through hell at the hands of an abuser, and the dilemma they post is almost always 'I desperately want to leave him but he says he'll take the kids off me'.

The answer to this is a) no he won't, because no court in the land would give this iidiot sole custody of a hamster never mind a child and b) call me a cynic but I expect that in reality, the last thing he really wants is to be saddled with the lone care of the very DCs whose every word and action sets him off and irritates him. he just wants to get one over on you and upset you as much as he can.

Does he naturally gravitate towards childcare, and do daily caring chores for your DCs unprompted by you and when nobody else is looking? If he doesn't then he'll soon lose the need to see as much of them as he can ime.

So true. They only say this because they know the children are more dear to you than life itself. They are taking an ice pick to your heart, using the children to hurt you. They are completely uninterested in the children or their welfare; children are possessions, objects, items they can dispose of as they wish, people who are there, like all others, solely to meet their needs, be it the ego boost they get when the children are complimented, or the fact that they can use them as weapons against you. They have no genuine interest in the children as little individuals in their own right.

Hi. I am still here. I've been really busy with work too and H has been around a lot - so hard to post.

Violet - really well done! You've done it now but I worry about you both being in the same house. You mention that he is calling you names. Is he doing anything else or taking it out on the children? It must be really hard for you.

I'm feeling in a really good mood. I've just come back from an appt with a solictor. Morris is correct. The solicitor says that , although I work PT, I am clearly the main carer and him doing 2/3 school runs for 1 of our DSs makes no difference. I've been part time, taken maternity leaves, and see to most of their care needs. She said that working full time wouldn't change that. Based on that, I can decide on the best needs of the kids and if I stay, they stay with me and, if I leave, I can take them too. He would have to apply to court if he disagreed. I would decide contact arrangements with H in the interim period before the divorce settlement - in the best interests of the DCs. If I waas concerned for thier safety, I could do supervised visits. I hope it doesn't come to that but he can be very unstable.

So I have a plan:

• ask him to leave & say I am divorcing him and if he does, stay in the house until we settle financially
• if he doesn't leave, I will leave with the DSs and rent. i don't think I could stay in the house with him. I'd be scared for me and the kids because I know what his mood will be like

The problem is that I don't have timescales. I want to do it now, but am taking the kds away for half term. I don't want him alone in the house with all our stuff having asked him to go. Having said that, if I he agrees to go, he would have a few days to find somewhere and pack up. It is also a bad time workwise, as I have to apply fir my own job early Nov and be interviewed w/c 16 Nov. Clearly I need a job and having a disrupted homelife and possibly no IT access will make things very hard. After that, it gets close to Christmas.

I feel things are getting urgent. His moods are going up and down again. I got back from work on Monday and he was very down and agitated and wouldn't talk. Oldest DC was the same. They had a falling out over homework which resulted in H calling DS "nasty" and something else that DS won't say. Last night he was stressed and difficult because I went out after tea to yoga. DS has been down since Monday and we had a big chat last night where he said he feels very depressed because he feels very uncomfortable around H and he is really sad. He also recognises the problems created by H's mum and feels uncomfortable around her - he avoids her now. I posted about her earlier.

Any thoughts on what would be a good time to do this would be welcome. Also, I plan to have a bag packed with all my and DSs' essentials, in the car waiting. So I can walk out and leave if necessary Any ideas on what to pack other thatn clothes, toiletries, favourate toys, passport, birth cert?

Keep strong Violet, Aboardtheax and all you others doing the same!

I vote for sometime between getting your job sorted and Christmas. Do everything only if and when it's convenient and safe for you. Forget about what might be a good time for the H. I really recommend getting help in the form of another person present in the house when you make your announcement to him. Be prepared to call the police if he gets nasty.

This is a link with a description of abusive behaviour and suggestions about laying the groundwork for separation.

Can you gradually pack more than just the bare essentials and leave them at a friend's house? That way, your DCs get to keep more of their familiar things. You could perhaps get a big plastic bag done every few days. If you have family photos, baby pictures, etc., this would be a good thing to try to hols on to, especially for the DCs. If he ends up leaving, you could retrieve the bags.

For the bare essentials bag, you should have copies of all the family financial information as well as school records, doctor and dentist information, birth certs, passports, and social service id cards or numbers, any medications or prescription records you're taking. And money. As much as you can lay your hands on.

Do you have somewhere to go immediately if H won't leave? You will need somewhere lined up, either emergency housing or somewhere permanent for that very day if he says he won't leave. Have you figured out where the DCs will be while you're at work after you leave -- do you have childcare arrangements already? You should look into getting somewhere to live, find out application fees for accommodation, etc. asap. Find trusted RL friends who will be there for you when the time comes.

Well don't make my mistake - I wanted to leave this time last year but didn't because as it drew nearer and nearer to Xmas I couldn't bear the thought of ripping the family apart - my kids are still quite young and Xmas is still a big big deal! So then the months ticked by and here I am having wasted another year...

Get your job sorted, and once thats secure just go - it sounds to me like you'll be doing your son a favour! glad your ok.

Feeling ready to tell my story - not sure whether to do it here (where you all are and will understand or start a new thread. Whats easier for you guys... don't want to intrude on FairL's thread

Hi - thanks for the advice. I think I probably need to work to late Nov time. Hi Violet. I don't really know how it all works on MN but I am very happy for you to share my thread, if it feels right for you. I can't always post cos of work and H being home a lot - hence me not posting for a couple of weeks early Oct. Joining me will also help keep it alive.

I'm not sure if he's seen this thread or overheard a phone conversation with a friend but something is up. Although I'm sure I cover my tracks well on the PC. He's really quiet and surly today. He's hardly said a word to me and now he says he is not eating anything today. So something's up. Maybe it's because I went out and let him to hang 2 washings on the line. Oh joy - we are all in for a fun weekend!

Why not go now? I know you're going away for half-term and you have to reapply for your job, but why wait? You're dreading the weekend (I remember that feeling) and you're son is telling you that he's really unhappy.

There will never be a good time and you don't want to give him more time to work on you and get you to change your mind.

There's never a perfect time for anything. If the weekend goes badly, do you have anywhere you could just get out to and stay?

Well, he's not talking to me - I'm getting very curt answers to anything I say and then silence. He is more or less OK with the kids thankfully. I'm not sure what I have done 'wrong' in his eyes. I just don't feel ready to walk out. I don't feel we are in any immediate danger and I want to be more prepared. He's away next week for a night , which will help. Then me and the kids are away for 5 nights. I'm not sure if if I lost my job it would a lot of difference as I would get about 9 months pay even if I didn't get a job there. However, to have no access to IT, sleepless nights and possibly no interview suit might make me less likely to be successful in the first place. So I'm reluctant to make a move before I have given the job my best shot. But it is tempting... I'll have plenty of time to chat with family while I'm away at half term and they are supportive but a long way away.

That's good because now it sounds like you're making the decision that's right for you, not him.

I think it's a good idea to have an emergency card up your sleeve -- maybe a concrete emergency plan, for the 'just in case' scenario, accompanied by discreet preparations for the planned big move is what you should be doing. Having a real emergency plan in place can give you no end of confidence because you feel you no longer have your back to the wall. Glad you're now focusing on you and what's best for you and what suits you.

Hi fairyliquid123.

Just wanted to say well done you for getting this far. Plucking up the courage to leave an AE or any abusive relationship is very very difficult. It took me at least 10 years.

The strongest thing for you now is to keep your resolve. It will wobble but don't let it fall.
Your plan was like mine. I had to go to option 2. But don't get disheartened if that still takes a while to organise. It took me 6 months to find the right place to rent because I needed it in a particular location but also because I didn't want to move to somewhere in a hurry with my dc in which I would then feel depressed and deflated because it wasn't homely.
Secondly, you must not listen to your H. Shut out the noise, comments and threats.My solicitor kept telling me to do this because my H would keep telling me the law about this that and the other and what his rights were (also re the children) but most of it was hot air. The thing is he knows what buttons to press to unsettle you.
Finally, everytime you feel like you are losing just focus your mind on the end goal. You know it won't be easy getting there but you will.

It's 15 months now since I moved out with my dc. I am divorced (although there are still financials outstanding) and have found the old 'me' again. It's whole new life emotionally.

Good luck to you and keep posting!

Yes - I feel I have a new-found confidence and realise I have to focus on me & kids, not him. We've focused on him too long. This will help in my job going forward I hope, too. As I have sometimes lacked confidence at work - I now know why! Citronella - did you stay in the house with him for 6 months, unitl you found a place? That sounds very difficult! He's still hardly speaking to me. I wonder if it's because he is annoyed at me going away with the kids and I haven't changed my mind about leaving him behind? He stopped speaking to me last time I took the kids away for a weekend. I have also completely stopped pandering to his moods.

Hi again!

Yes I did stay in the house for 6 months and it was at times unbearable (he could be really nasty) and at best just like living in a shared house.
He will be hating the fact that you are taking control back of your life. Take your time though as much as you can unless its unbearable.
Get your finances together so that when you find somewhere to rent you are ready to go (you will need a months deposit and a months rent up front)

Either in your emergency bag or in advance you need to collect important documents like kids' birth certificates, passports, National Insurance nos, NHS numbers etc.

Very importantly keep a diary of everything. Events, conversations, moods etc etc you will need these.

Open your own "Freedom" bank account to start squirrelling away funds.

I was also stuck with ex in the house for a bit after we knew it was well and truly over but still before divorce proceedings were filed. He would walk past me without even looking at me, never talked to me, looked right past me, ignored me if I spoke but expected me to reply if he spoke to me -- in general behaved as if I wasn't there unless he conjured me up by speaking to me. He ate his meals somewhere else, and did his own laundry, by his choice (funny if he thought he was punishing me by not gifting me with all those grimy skid-marked tighty whities and sweaty running gear on a daily basis, actually).

It was a truly horrible experience, and I was on edge the whole time. At first I watched him and was continually conscious of his silent treatment, where he was in the house, what his facial expression was, etc., then took a page from his book and started blanking him out too, which didn't come naturally to me. It was a strain to say the least, and really horrible for the children to witness.