Narsissistic personality disorder

[therealme]

I'm English, living overseas. I'm married for 17 yrs and most of that has been pretty awful. I recently 'came clean' about my abusive relationship with dh on a parenting site where I live and I have had my eyes opened for the first time that maybe it's not all my fault anymore. I have blamed myself for everything that has 'gone wrong' in my marriage - although I have genuinly messsed up on more than one occasion.

I received a lot of support from people but didn't believe I was worthy of it. Then somebody suggested I google Narsissistic Personality Disorder and that is the moment my whole world changed. For the very fist time I began to see that maybe it wasn't ME that might have all the problems. I saw my 'perfect' dh described in black and white and the words 'personality disorder' were attached to his behaviours. To say the ground shifted from under me would be an understatement.

So now I find myself at a turning point in my life. I know I have to end my marriage. It's emotionally, verbally and mentally abusive. I now recognise that I am a shell of the person that I once was, have had the life blood drained out of me, but still have enough of a spark in me to want to fight for some peace of life at 42! I have 3 children whom I love and adore - but who also love their Daddy. I'm living financially independently from my dh who refused to support me financially after ds 2 was born 6 yrs ago. I want him out of the house and out of my life!

I've made my mind up, but I am still so weak when it comes to taking action. I have spent so long living in a confused and guilt-ridden state, does that make sense?
Is there anybody out there who has experience of living with a narsissistic partner? How do you make the break? How do you ever find the strength to stand up to them in order that you might have some quality of life left for yourself? Please advise.....

Digitalis, yes just before he ran away he left me three letters on our laptop saying he had been doing some research and thought he had "..some of the traits of NPD - not all of them, for example I don't fly into a rage - I make sure you do that...' (he used black silences and disappearing acts as his weapons of choice. Drove me nuts with frustration and despair.)

I never did come to understand what he meant by 'the source is different.'

He said he was going to get therapy - went to see two NPD specialists recommended to him, but then vanished on us again for good, a few days later.

I have read that sometimes, Ns have moments of illumination that there is something wrong with them...but the condition itself means they cannot accept it and they soon wipe the thought away, look for a new source of supply, re-invent themselves and continue on their sorry path to self-destruction (ultimately)

Yes the fall-out is awful and will indeed go on for years I suspect. Though I am noway near as traumatised and ill as I was when he first left.

I am trying now to work out what to tell my son when he begins asking about his father. He is 22 months and it won't be that long. It's going to be hard to explain.

Therealme, you can see from the different stories on here that NPD is, as I say, on a spectrum - no two Ns are the same but they will share various classic traits.

Someone is probably right earlier (think it was TMSB) when they suggested that the 'no hard feelings' line was just projection. They project their own feelings on to others. He uses the wrong words though...lose the word 'hard' and it's probably closer to the truth.

Keep going lovely.

Hi therealme
The "no hard feelings" line still grates on me.

The court order was a slam-dunk! response to his threat. He is diminishing and devaluing that as best he can ("little episode") which translates to diminishing and devaluing you. The gift is just a distraction so you won't notice (standard purpose of their "gifts", isn't it?) the lefthanded degradation.

The essence of "no hard feelings"-in any context really-is dismissiveness.
As Unlikely suggested: it is to the purpose of no feelings-make you return to numbness so he wins 100%- no contest.

The projection theory also hits the mark (target of numbness). That is complex and I have to really stop and think about it to understand the depths of its significance-where it leads and the ultimate effect. I can describe things without yet having the correct vocabulary . Thanks for your help, Unlikely.

Digitalis-the description of your x sounds like the type my sister may be. I read a good description in "Disarming the Narcissist" by Wendy Behary labeled as a "Covert Narcissist". She gathers friends about her for "Queen holding court".

Yes, toomany, his comment of 'No hard feelings' left me with that very same feeling; it was so flippant, so inappropriate a comment to make given the fact that he had just been reported to the Guards and issued with court summons to answer for his behaviour. He is devaluing the whole scenario and my instigation of it.

I have been receiving interesting text messages from him this evening. Firstly, he had upset ds (10) with his lack of empathy and I stepped in. My son is still very upset over the way his Dad informed him that 'Mummy has been to the Guards etc and is forcing me to move out' line. My h, sorry - ex h - left the house and then rang me to try to justify his behaviour tonight over ds. I refused to engage and told him I was ending the conversation. I have since received long drawn out texts where he has apologised re how he handled son, and apologised for 'stressing me out' during our marriage, that he had no idea how 'stresed' I had become.
Once again his choice of language is wildly off the mark. Does he really think that I sat in front of a Judge last week to seek protection because he had 'stressed me out....?' He is downplaying his behaviour big time here and has, I believe, started to give weak apologies in an attempt to take responsibility for some kind of mild marrital disharmony.

On an interesting side note, I was also accused this evening of having 'emasculated' him during our marriage. The only thing I can think that he is refering to here is the fact that my being at home full time, taking care of the dc and home, meant that he did not have total control or power in the home. Instead he opted out of all household and childcare responsibilities. His father (whom I believe was the N parent) died quite young leaving a weak mother (worn down from years of living with N h?)in charge of 5 dc. My ex has always felt that his family deteriorated after his father died and has maintained a duty towards his mother but has little respect for her. The idea that a woman should hold any control or power in a family seems to bother him greatly and hence he feels emasculated.

I`Ve just taken a deep breath and clicked on this thread title after seeing it here for a while. therealme, the advice you have received on here is fantastic. The reality of NPD is so horrifying that most people would rather stay in denial about their relationships so I take my hat off to you for going about leaving in such a calm, well-thought out way. That is the most effective way of dealing with a N because of course they have no empathy or "real" emotions.

I have personality disordered parents- I no longer have any contact with my mother (far far too painful) and only letter contact with my father (because in letters nothing can be twisted and nothing can escalate).

Well...I live abroad, just like you. I met my DH when I was in a very bad place and now I am seriously wondering about whether he has NPD. His mother certainly has and I have limited contact with her. The gift-giving is rife. THe gift giving is all about control. Its to make you obligated to them. My in-laws did this in a big way until I literally had to ask them to stop (making me appear unreasonable- who doesnt like presents, hey?) Its nothing whatsoever to do with kindness. I read a funny thing on the SamVaknin website, saying that you are more likely to get a gift you want from a narcissist if you <span class="italic">dont tell them what youd like. THen they might give it to you by accident. If you tell them what you really would like, they will get you something completely different and then act all hurt if you dont exclaim joy!

Sorry for this ramble. I think I just wanted to let you know that there are people out there who know exactly what you are going through and how frightening, confusing and crazy-making it all is, and how it pushes your sanity to the end of your limits.
I still don`T know if my DH is a N or just has N traits. Time will tell: he adores DD at the moment, but she is 2- a prime age for narcissistic supply. I am saving money each month just in case it all goes tits up.

And I just wanted to add that after being on the receiving end of physcical and emotional abuse by both of my parents, I can testify that emotional and verbal abuse are worse. Physical abuse is much much easier to deal with as it doesn`t quite anihilate your sense of self in the same way that emotional abuse does.

When it comes to the children, maybe you could tell them that they don't deserve to be treated badly, and that you are sorry this is happening. I know where you are, looking on pretty helplessly while they suffer draconian punishments for daring to have a mind of their own. Ns can't cope with children because they are direct and blunt and do not try to spare the feelings of the adults around them. For most children, in a normal home with a real adult for a parent, this does not have any negative repercussions. But with an "adult" who is a narcissist, the children have to walk on eggshells, filter their thoughts, develop and extra layer to their thinking process because one or other parent can't deal with them as real individuals. In fact, I think this is one of the easy ways to spot a N -- how do the children behave around them? Therealme, you are doing the best you can, and over all those years you did the best you could, with the information you had; the reality check is so hard to bear when all is made clear and everything you thought you knew suddenly develops a different character when you shine the new light on it. But in the end knowledge and truth will set you free both as a woman and as a mother to your children, because you will be able to cut through the fog and address the real issues you are facing as a result of your Nh's problems. When you are all free of the Nh, things will change with your children too, they will gradually relax and feel better.

Unlikelyamazonian, did you count how many I's and me's there are in that letter he sent you?

Therealme, one thing I did when trying to get back on my feet and be myself again was to say "I'll think about it and get back to you." when faced with any requests. I started developing the habit of saying to myself, "What's in this for me?" I had never, ever asked myself that question where my relationship with my ex was concerned. And of course I now know it was the only thing that ever mattered to him for all the years we were together.

therealme on the issue of no respect for his mother, the N that I have had experience of (not a partner - a partner of someone I know) was the same. Worshipped his father who died early and had no respect for his mother, and no respect for any woman actually.

He also showered people with presents and overblown verbiage and flowery sentiments in cards and letters.

He would also attempt an apology of sorts from time to time when he could see things were not going his way, but always had to blame the other person for causing his behaviour. And it went in definite cycles, so don't expect the current semi-apologetic situation to last.

Katisha, sounds like your friend is, infact, me! You have just described my ex h perfectly. The gift buying/over blown romantic sentiments were never matched by me and therefore another soure of criticism for years. It continues - this morning he offered to bring me shopping for new clothes since I have lost so much weight. Anything he offers involves his ability to use his money. Money has always given him the power in our marriage, especially since I was forced to live on benefits.

I'm off to paint my bedroom now, in lilac.

I have been thinking about the effect on children all afternoon since reading this thread. UnlikelyAmazonian mentioned that humour is one of the antidotes against the effects of a N parent. This is definitely true because laughing and humour are done for their own sakes. There is no ulteriour motive when you are having a laugh (unless its at someone). THe other antidote mentioned here by someone else was the notion of making sure you help your children develop a sense of their own competence by praising them if they accomplish something theyve tried at or simply if they have helped you out with the housework. I want to add another one: if your children can find something that absorbs them completely, that they thoroughly enjoy for its own sake,that they gain a sense of deep satisfaction from and not because they are going to be praised, then this creates a solid sense of self I believe. It could be anything from a hobby, to cloud-watching, hiking, music, reading (these are my personal faves but it really could be anything). They will have something then that no-one can ever take away from them because their enjoyment wont depend on the opinion or approval of someone outside themselves.
A person with NPD has no real sense of self and may learn things to impress others but rarely do they gain real satisfaction from the task itself.

Sorry just to clarify, I think that praise for helping out is good and helps them develop pride and confidence. Then there are the things they can do for enjoyment that don`T need praise but the reward is inherent in the doing.

Cats seem to have good antennae for Ns. My lovely cat climbed onto the bed where h was having a lie-in once, not long after we had met, padded across the duvet to him, turned round, lifted his tail and pissed directly on h's face.

He was totally outraged and hated the cat forever more. I laughed uproariously but was surprised as the cat had never ever done such a thing to anyone before.

Just thought I'd share that.

Sakura you were among the wonderful MNetters who helped me a lot when I was going through agony last year. Thankyou.

And yes, Ns learn a lot of stuff but it's just to impress. H knew everything about Greek wars, vietnam, English church architecture, shakespeare, stage directors, elemental formulas, you name it. He knew most of the answers when we watched University Challenge.

But he stayed in his shitty little journo job earning peanuts, despite this presidential knowledge of which he was so proud. He loved the fact that he was 'the best speller on the newspaper' (tin-pot regional rag)

I thought that was quaint. Sweet.

If I met him now I would run for the hills and beyond.

Glad if something I posted to you was helpful, unlikely. Yes, its interesting about your X having that small job. I think I read somewhere that a N will always underachieve because they always want people to believe that they could do better if they just put their mind to it. THey think its so obvious that they are better than the job theyre doing. But they would never actually apply themselves to the job they believe they they are fit for or the business they are always talking about starting one day because 1) they are too lazy 2) they might <span class="italic">fail</span> and then their illusions of being special will come crashing down around them. They need to believe they arent in the special job because they have chosen not to be, rather than because they are not up to it!!!
[Would any of what I have just written make sense to someone who has never known a N??!!!]

That "best speller" phrase seems so infantile. THey are 6 year olds in adult bodies, aren`t they. Scary stuff because they have the power that adults do but they are 6.

Totally agree and yes I fully understand. They are cowards, parasites, users. They are just mad fuckers in normal jeans.

I think a lot of them are also quite camp. Rogue gay gene in there somewhere. Haven't worked out why yet. I thought H was gay to start with.

So: cats can identify them, they seem like they could be gay, they know a lot about everything, they declare their love for you early on, they tell you that their previous partner was mad/vicious etc, they do a thing I call a rictus smile at inappropriate moments, they have strange tics (mine coughed and cleared his throat all the time when I first met him,) they are SHITE with money and spend it like it's going out of fashion...

come on realme, you can add to this list!

New to the thread, many many years of falling for narcs, trying tremendously hard now to break the cycle having had an epiphany.

Adding to the list:

Someone else is ALWAYS to blame, most often you;
There's a trail of former friends/colleagues in the past who the narc no longer has anything to do with and you can't really understand why, what went wrong;
they try to collect your romantic/sexual history at the beginning of the relationship, under the guise of it being fascinating and romantic to them to know all about you, they then constantly bring up this history later in the relationship as a means to denigrate/ criticise you

Seem familiar?

Bloody hell, my lovely best friend (who at first didn't believe me about NPD but does now) has just emailed me this link to a radio 4 programme. It's 30 mins long and is totally fascinating.....you MUST listen to this. Here is the link:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007lz6n

Now that I recognise a narcissist, I realise that there are loads of 'em about - some in a more advanced state of being a danger to other people than others.
I often wonder how they get like it in the first place? Is it that people just humour them initially or what? What sends them off into their versions of reality that are so removed from normal people's?
I posted this once before on MN on a similar N-type thread but was told that it didn't matter how they got like it - it's how to deal with it that is the problem. But I would still love to know what the process is that forms these people, or whether they are just born like it somehow,

Just some context for the programme link: I just read this on the internet:

"A sociopath is an extreme narcissist with a sadistic, jealous, vindictive dark side. They have a need to hurt people. They will rationalize and justify getting revenge on people. They are lynch mobs. They don't communicate and talk out problems, but have a NEED to believe others are malicious so that they don't have to feel guilty when they get revenge.

A sociopath and narcissist seem to have the same, or similar, chemical imbalance. They are not able to empathize. Emotionally stunted, aggressive, self-centered, vain, argumentative, impulsive, volatile, and can be capable of being violent. I think they share the same chemical imbalance as well as similar traits. I don't believe that environment has anything to do with becoming either, except to, maybe, give them certain personality characteristics."

eeeeekk

So born like it then...
Unsurprising that counselling has zero effect on them then.

I don't think they are only born like it. My h had a weird relationship with his cold, emotionally distant father who may, or may not have beaten him with a stick (h says he did, his mother says that's rubbish.)

He was very spoiled as a child but there are things in his childhood to do with this that were only ever hinted at to me.

There are other disoders (I think) in the whoe family...the sister is histrionic and jealous and obsessed with poetry and her children have to be the best and come top in everything...

the brother liked very young girls

The mother left the family home and ran off with a childhood sweetheart when h was about 24, after being married to the father for nearly 30yrs.

She is a terrible snob.

She has blanked me completely

The siblings (apart from h who is an extreme version of something) all worshipped the mother. And thought the father was einstein.

god it's all so screwed up.

i might have to write a handbook

He had homosexual experiences at school (not anything new but this was over quite a long time and with the same boy)

My Nh was born to extremely religious parents. Their first child was stillborn and the death never dealt with (it was the 60's). His parents lived with the paternal parents and went on to have 5 children. All 9 people lived in a 2 bedroomed house. H's father worked in a job he hated and overspent, especially at holiday times when he would entertain extended family in lavish style. They dressed their son in a shirt and tie, even to attend a non uniform school. H was consequently bullied a lot. His father expected him to be a high achiever and oversaw all homework, expecting it to be completed to a high level. Once, when h had no homework, his father refused to believe him, so he lied and said he had to draw a snake. His father made him spend 2 hours drawing it until it was of perfect dimensions.

All h's siblings have issues. H is the eldest, the next sister has some form of PD and has always taken the attention because she reels from one crisis to another. Next sister moved overseas but is treated for severe anxiety. Brother seems to have escaped relatively normal, but cut himself off emotionally from family a long time ago. Finally, youngest sister, still lives at home with mother at 32, no bf for 7 yrs now, displaying many NPD signs.

From what I've read, h seems to have developed his ND as a result of never being able to live up to his fathers expectations. He still strives for perfection in his life setting extremely high standards for himself and of course, me and the dc. His mother was/is emotionally distant and as such is held in contempt. His narcissism developed as a form of self protection as a child. His true self is still an emotionally neglected and bullied little boy. And that is what I married.

Unlikely, that list is interesting, and familiar. My h also;
obsesses on topics/hobbies and spends vast amounts of money on them. The hobby is then discarded.
Can never 'run out' of something in the house and as a result had a supply of things stashed away ie, 6 bottles of bath foam, 5 packets of plasters, 10 boxes of headache tablets....(that went for boots and underwear too)
Could never have a few plants, had to have hundreds, and then blamed me for years when I neglected them after having ds.
Dropped most of his friends and never made contact again.
Covered the walls in paintings, posters, postcards, newspaper clippings, words of wisdom.
Constantly read biographies about powerful men.
Always reading factual information and quoting famous leaders to illustrate a point.

God there's more - soooo much more, but I'd be here all night

Have also worked with NPD people in an office; bloody hell they're a nightmare as well to deal with. You only get solace when they leave (as this girl did). Think the whole place breathed a sigh of relief.

NPD rellies, I can truly empathise with anyone stuck with NPD relatives.

Came across this. The DSM-IV Diagnostic Criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder are:-
A. A pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, lack of empathy, as indicated by at least five of:

1. a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, ie unreasonable expectations of especially favourable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitative, ie takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy and is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes

My BIL hits at least 5 of the above. I believe he has always been NPD but his NPD has become more extreme over the past few years to the point of sectioning. I think his parents (mother particularly, by god she's a cold fish) played a role in shaping him as he is now. She can also play a good martyr role. Both MIL and FIL are emotionally distant and cold and always wanting to "keep up appearances" to the outside world. Image and maintaining this is everything to these people and they do lots of "good works". They do not have any empathy and any real opinion on anything, ask them about current affairs and they go blank. They have NO opinion. The marriage disintegrated years ago but it suits them to stay together; they can have "supply" off each other.

FIL's main concern in life is him. No-one else is of any interest. His main goal is acquiring money and power/admiration from other people/organisations.

My MIL's Dad was a cold Edwardian type father who idolised her, she could do no wrong in his eyes. She always used to say, "I'm a good girl aren't I Daddy?". Her particular dysfunction started back in her childhood. As did FIL's.

They will not change. All I can do is keep my distance from them and keep any visit as short as humanely possible. My poor H.