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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Narsissistic personality disorder

1001 replies

therealme · 19/07/2009 02:25

I'm English, living overseas. I'm married for 17 yrs and most of that has been pretty awful. I recently 'came clean' about my abusive relationship with dh on a parenting site where I live and I have had my eyes opened for the first time that maybe it's not all my fault anymore. I have blamed myself for everything that has 'gone wrong' in my marriage - although I have genuinly messsed up on more than one occasion.

I received a lot of support from people but didn't believe I was worthy of it. Then somebody suggested I google Narsissistic Personality Disorder and that is the moment my whole world changed. For the very fist time I began to see that maybe it wasn't ME that might have all the problems. I saw my 'perfect' dh described in black and white and the words 'personality disorder' were attached to his behaviours. To say the ground shifted from under me would be an understatement.

So now I find myself at a turning point in my life. I know I have to end my marriage. It's emotionally, verbally and mentally abusive. I now recognise that I am a shell of the person that I once was, have had the life blood drained out of me, but still have enough of a spark in me to want to fight for some peace of life at 42! I have 3 children whom I love and adore - but who also love their Daddy. I'm living financially independently from my dh who refused to support me financially after ds 2 was born 6 yrs ago. I want him out of the house and out of my life!

I've made my mind up, but I am still so weak when it comes to taking action. I have spent so long living in a confused and guilt-ridden state, does that make sense?
Is there anybody out there who has experience of living with a narsissistic partner? How do you make the break? How do you ever find the strength to stand up to them in order that you might have some quality of life left for yourself? Please advise.....

OP posts:
Sakura · 29/08/2009 01:22

OMG, I heard that radio link. 11 children by 7 women! I have to mention the gummy GRIN in the photo. Narcissists (I am thinking of my MIL in particular) sometimes have a kind of smile-more of a grin, really- with teeth bared like a wolf that doesnt touch their cold eyes. I have my own opinions about whether Ns are nature or nurture and I believe that on the whole its nurture. There are chemical imbalances in their brain but I have read reasearch that shows that stress in early childhood can actually <span class="italic">alter</span> a childs brain (!) All Ns have had a N as a parent and I personally think this is what affects them the most. As for differences between siblings, I think that siblings are treated differently by the N parent and so some become Ns and some dont. THere is the Golden child, the scapegoat etc etc. I also think that children of Ns might not necessarily become sociopaths but they might have traits because theyve never actually seen empathy and love in action in the home. They hurt people because they know no different after what theyve been modelled at home (I count myself in this: as a teenager I used to behave similarly to my mother and repeat things shed said until I sat and thought about how that would effect the person I was doing it too and then I was absolutely mortified ). There is a difference between these people and the Ns.

toomanystuffedbears · 29/08/2009 01:50

Hi Sakura, glad you are doing well.
Hi Therealme -its been over a week-congratulations!

I talked with Oldest (non-npd) sister today about our lovely Middle sister (NPD). I am 17 months from the official disconnect and have been having thoughts of reaching out to her (she still has not met dd2): I guess I am feeling the future guilt that I know she will lay on me.

No fear, I do know better. Their birthday weekend is coming up (both sisters were born on the same day) and I will send boxes to both. I have gotten over the training of parity-equalized gifts .

Middle sister blatanly blamed Oldest Sister for my disconnect. OS is no doubt holding the "bad child" role. MS hates her.

I thought to write her an illumanating letter, but why? It would be dismissed, devalued, ridiculed "so that's what you think this is about". She wouldn't believe it because her brain couldn't possibly accept it.

This is getting to the nurture point. My mother treated me as an invisible child and Middle Sister is only, simply modeling that training. It is the only way she has seen an adult treat me-that is the only way. Oldest Sister was the "bad child" to mother-thus that is the way Middle Sister treats her.

It is not a long jump to understand that Middle Sister believes herself to be matriarch (our parents are deceased). She is childless and I believe the above to be the major influence, but her search for substitue children may offer fuel to mask her lonliness. (I've seen the recent thread on childless relatives.)

Got to dash-but thanks all for helping make these connections.

therealme · 29/08/2009 02:05

Oh help, again.
H asked me to explain what the Safety Order meant tonight. I told him it was because he had verbally abused me, smashed and broken things and generally left me feeling intimidated and in fear.
He later rang me, sounding upset, wanting to apologise for making me feel intimidated, that he really had no idea etc.
He says he will admit to his abusive behaviour in court.
He sounded remorseful. But do I believe this is genuine, or just his distress at the thought of being exposed in court? His nice guy image is ruined.
He apologises easily, but at the same time justifies his behaviour by saying I have 'emasculated' him, I did not communicate my feelings to him enough, I did not tell him how to be a better h.

Can somebody, who has been so nasty and vindictive, suddenly become empathic and see the light? Is this enough of a crisis for him to really face up to the reality of his behaviour, and bring about a genuine revelation?
Or is he crumbling because his cosy life with me has disintergrated and he will be forced to loose face in a court of law?

I am very confused. I guess I really want him to realise that his behaviour has been appaling and that he will seek some kind of treatment. On the other hand, I am finally beginning to relax a little now that he has left and I don't feel as though I have to justify my actions to anybody.
I don't know if he is genuinly sorry, or just sorry for himself.
I hear his apology, but I also hear me being used as a reason for instigating his bad behaviour.
I don't know any different in a marital partnership. Can I, and my actions, be to blame for causing a man to behave so angrily? Did I drive him to to the point where he could cut me off financially, feel he had a right to verbally abuse me, criticise me constantly, smash all the mirrors in the house, expect me to meet all his demands, be punished if I didn't?

I am feeling sorry for him. I see this vunerable, neglected little boy. I really don't want to go back to the kind of life I had with my h though.

OP posts:
toomanystuffedbears · 29/08/2009 02:55

Hi therealme,
Don't trust him.
He is grasping at straws to find anything that will reel you back in, or give himself some sort of emotional relief. He may be in a somewhat state of shock as well: accountability isn't something he is used to is it? Give it time to play out-his true colors will be waving proudly before too long.

I have come to the realization that I can not trust my initial reaction to stuff...I need to stop and really think objectively, rationally to make sure I'm not responding to a trigger, or brainwashed scenario.

That is why the "I'll get back to you later on that" line suggested earlier by more than one source is vital.

You are not responsible for him. This is not your fault. He is your x husband for a catalog of reasons.

If it was your fault...then all husbands would be acting that way-think about it. He DOES NOT want to take responsibilty for his actions-overt or subtle. He is 6 years old. He is realizing he 'got caught' and is having an anxiety attack because he is not mature enough to own up to it. He says he'll own up to it in court...well, that remains to be seen doesn't it? Nothing but lip service until then.

No pity, therealme. Take no prisoners.
Stay strong and focused. You are a fabulous person and mom and deserve to be well rid of your x h.

Sakura · 29/08/2009 07:06

therealme,
two of the hardest things you ever have to face with someone like this is that you can never change them and that you will never be able to make them see. They will never see how they have hurt you and they will never understand. They simply cant. They wonT see the light. THey can make all the right noises (apologizing etc) but inside they do not get it. In fact when you accept this it helps you a lot because you feel less of a victim in the sense that if youve thrown in the towel you donT expend any more energy than you have to.
I honestly do not know why he is behaving like he is, like I do not know why unlikelys X sent that heartfelt-sounding e-mail saying he was crying his eyes out. But I donT believe he can change.
You are feeling sorry for him because you have probably been trained that way in your childhood. I have been treated like shite by my parents and I still feel sorry for them! I still have lot of pity and empathy for them but I have to remind myself that they have none for me. So you keep reminding yourself of this.

Hi TMSB Yeah, still here, still working on my life...

Unlikelyamazonian · 29/08/2009 09:00

They are very good at apologising aren't they. He might, in the moment he is saying them, think he believes sincerely in his apologies.

But if you continue along your path now, he will eventually change his tune completely and start trashing you to other people.

You could just engage with him politely, briefly, and ask him to actually WRITE to you laying out what he admits he has done in the past and to write down his apologies. I have three letters from my H in which he admits everything - that he drove me mad with his silences, his emotionlessness, his inability to engage with me or feel empathy, his total lack of friends and his cruel behaviour. He apologises profusely for being hurtful, poisonous etc, and says lots of wonderful things about me before closing with the line that the only thing for him to do is 'disappear' which sounds like a suicide threat.

The letters may one day be useful - perhaps to show my ds - because since abandoning us he has, of course, re-written history totally: he now tells people that I was drunk every night, had mental health issues and a terrible rage, and that he was just an ordinary, 'peaceable chap' caught in a 'typhoon' which he couldn't handle.

That's what they do: they will trash you to their friends, slander you, lie lie and lie and treat you with contempt. It's pathetic but horrid too.

Your reaction to his pleading is normal and human - comnpassionate! Of course you think he may have 'seen the light' and of course you want some moral justice and to think he can finally see what a shit he has been and how you have been a bloody saint to stay with him for so long. But if he is indeed NPD it is all just words and nonsense. Bluffing. Smoke and mirrors. He is playing to your human gift of forgiveness which, god knows, you must have in spades to have endured all that you have. He knows which buttons to press. He knows he is drinking in the last chance saloon and is pulling out all the stops to reel you back in once more.

They are breathtakingly manipulative. He is still blaming you for his treatment of you. Classic. So what exactly is he sorry for? yes he is sorry for himself alone really. But he knows that normal humans apologise to the other person when they have fucked up so he is doing what he knows is 'expected,' to get his way.

Well it's your way now. And you know that you cannot go back. Ignore his wheedling attempts, (though as I say, you could ask, if he next calls...'I want you to write it all down in a letter to me and I shall read it and think about it and come back to you') and for once in your life reserve any sympathy or sorrow or compassion you have for your DC. THEY need your reserves of these, not this man.

Keep going. Keep smiling. You will go through grief and anger and other normal emotions at your marriage finally breaking up. But if he is NPD, you cannot and must not remain with him, for your DC's as well as your own sake.

Grovelling puts him at the centre of the drama whereas you want no more drama and no more him.

Squiggly · 29/08/2009 13:56

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Squiggly · 29/08/2009 13:58

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Unlikelyamazonian · 29/08/2009 14:35

brilliant post squiggly

gettingagrip · 29/08/2009 19:04

It's like the old joke isn't it?

Q) How do you know when a N is lying?

A) His lips are moving.

It's interesting reading about all these begging and apologising ex-Ns.

Mine has never apologised, never begged, and went straight into narc-rage when I left him!

He is still in it nearly three years later! AT least I know what to expect!

Mind you....my N-mother does the apologising thing...a sickly faux-apology with the rictus-grin on her face.....sarcastically saying she bows down to me in my superior knowledge.

THink would rather deal with the rage!

xxxxx

therealme · 29/08/2009 19:27

Ok, so I guess I am seeing Mr Nice at the moment because he needs to be Mr Nice, he has just had a dose of reality, yes?
But Mr Nasty hasn't just undergone a personality transformation. He is still there lurking away under Mr Nice waiting for a reason to re emerge. And if the last 17 years are anything to go by, it won't be long before I do or say something that will bring on some form of angry tirade.

I got a great example today of his 'mad' behaviour. Having just had the tattoo of my name covered over with a new tattoo, he informed me that he was getting my name tattooed on his other arm. When I asked why? when he'd gone to such lengths to erase it, he told me that he had the old one covered because he had felt so 'emasculated' (his fav word atm) by me, but now that he had had it covered, he no longer felt emasculated and wanted it re done on other arm....???

Later on today I went to a shopping mall. The last time I was there, just before Christmas, h had been at home in a foul temper with me. I suddenly remembered the abusive texts and phonecalls he had made to me; trying to speak to him on my mobile in hushed tones because I was in a busy cafe with dd, feeling the fear and dread of what I would be going back home to, and on returning home, finding he had thrown items out of the bedroom window.
It was an apt reminder of what life with h had been like, the other side of Mr Nice.

Thank you for your messages today, btw. With no friends/family here I rely only on myself to try to understand what is going on. I often know the answers already, but lack belief in myself.

OP posts:
Squiggly · 29/08/2009 20:26

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mathanxiety · 29/08/2009 21:31

Therealme; so essentially he is saying that because you did not teach him how to be a normal human being, the whole thing is your fault? What kind of a moron needs to be told that there are consequences to trashing things, threatening someone's life, treating someone like a slave? He can't change. All he will do is change his tune. He will say anything and everything that he thinks might impress you. Stay strong. You did nothing to instigate this. If it wasn't you it would be someone else, and before long, there will be someone else, a handy replacement for you. Next time he tries to make a show of affection or apology, don't get engaged, verbally. Just a non-committal, "Oh really?.." regarding the tattoo for instance, or if he gets angry, "I'm sorry you feel that way." And don't reply to texts or answer the phone. It's very hard to behave in this cold way when you are a nice, warm, normal, loving person. This sort of non-responsiveness is completely alien to anyone who has any normal impulses, and so is your sympathy for him, but you must develop the mental habit of asking yourself, "What's in it for me?"

Squiggly · 29/08/2009 23:36

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therealme · 30/08/2009 00:22

Sqiggly, here's another one to add to your tattoo theory; He just sent me a text saying that the real reason he had my name removed was because I bought him teas maid for his birthday!
Actually, Mr Nasty has just returned. He is in work reading through old diaries and guess what? I'm getting a stream of text 'put downs' about all my faults and how I neglected him. And, oh joy! he is only on diary no 1 and has two more to go!
But do you know what? I DON'T CARE! I have seperated myself from him and I no longer have to defend myself - it's the first time I have felt my freedom having been to court. I'm sitting here laughing to myself like a mad woman

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mathanxiety · 30/08/2009 00:54

He kept diaries? With all your wicked ways recorded and dated? He has covered his arse very well for the day when he has to explain himself in court, if that's the case. Get those diaries and burn them.

therealme · 30/08/2009 01:27

Mathsanxiety, he had those diaries under lock and key
Actually they were supposed to be diaries from a father to each of his dc as they grew older, but I'm guessing they were really another way to have a go at me.

However, as he quotes, the complaints about me are for refusing 'to do chores' for him etc, so I wonder how seriously a court would consider this when compared to his history of abuse?

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mathanxiety · 30/08/2009 03:46

I suppose that's true. Possibly a lot of the stuff in there seems perfectly reasonable to him but if any sane person saw them he would be exposed for the basket case that he is. Ns do not see themselves as others see them.

MadameOvary · 30/08/2009 11:05

Fantastic thread and Squiggly, what a great post!
Am more convinced than ever that my ex is an N and probably my father too (explains a lot!)
One day the world will know the madness of living with an "N" and lessons will be given in schools to show us what to avoid in the future!

Digitalis · 30/08/2009 19:37

It is frightening how the nice and nasty behavior can sucker us in when that is what we have been conditioned to for years.

Your ExN is now revealing his true self.

Don't forget that "Mr Nasty" is the real ExN. "Mr Nice" is the mask that he uses to get you on side. For many years I believed that Mr Nasty was the result of ExN's depression - this is what he told me and I believed it implicitly. I spent too long trying to to make ExN's life happier and easier so that the depression would lift and "Mr Nice" would re-appear.

ExN has fooled many GP's, psychiatrists and counsellors with his tales of incurable clinical depression. It took a long time for me to realise he can turn it on and off at will and it was a tool to control me with and attract sympathy from his family members.

Some years ago ExN made a piece of artwork as a present for DS and framed it for him. ExN recently explained that it was a self-portrait - a two headed person with a dark head on one side and a sunny smily head on the other. ExN said it depicted his battle with depression.

If only he realised how close he came to realising the root of his problem. The false self masking the real self.

Thank goodness you have left therealem and that you didn't succumb and have him back. You will probably feel like that again next time the mask goes on but I think you're too wise now to go back!

mathanxiety · 30/08/2009 23:08

I came to realise in the end that my own exNH was using, not losing his temper.

Digitalis, only a real N would consider a self portrait a suitable gift for someone. Framed, did you say? Classic. Very interesting about the two faces.

Sakura · 31/08/2009 08:54

sorry but at the self-portrait as a gift Yes, thats classic.

Digitalis · 31/08/2009 11:03

Yes I can see it now, but at the time it seemed so normal I thought nothing of it.

He also wrote poetry late at night and would give it to me the next morning. I would eagerly scan it hoping to see if it was about his love for me or something romantic.

It was always poetry about himself and his terrible struggles with life. Which I suppose if you're a narc is how it must feel.

But just imagine being given poetry with "here you are darling, a poem for you about me"

I only left 5 months ago so this kind of thing is still flashing back to me and the pieces are fitting together like a jigsaw.

I hope things are well with you therealme and you're having a peaceful bank holiday weekend?

MadameOvary · 31/08/2009 11:11

"I came to realise in the end that my own exNH was using, not losing his temper"

mathanxiety that is very true!

My ex-N used used poetry to tell the world how awful it was living with me and how he loved me regardless

"...you were a brittle stalk
I had mistaken for a willow
And you broke under the frailest of storms"

Says it all really.

Funny but he used to talk all the time about his "public face" - that was the nice, affable, charismatic face everyone else saw.

therealme · 31/08/2009 11:49

No bank hol over here Digitalis. Back to school today for my boys. Dd in creche. Feeling the weight of it all catching up with me a bit. Think I need to do something nice for myself, I'm not in the habit of putting my needs first. Have spent the morning putting my bedroom together which is good, but it is also sad thinking it's now just a single Mummy's bedroom iykwim?

I can relate to the poetry writing stuff too. Folders of it. All about the futility of his life and how he had his spirit crushed by me. Think I realise now that he probably always felt that way and when I came along he had someone to finally focus all his dark thoughts onto. It was only a matter of time before I messed up in his eyes. I fell off the pedestal years ago and have continued to fall ever since. It's going to take a long time before I start to like myself again, too many years of thinking I am a horrible person

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