Narsissistic personality disorder

[therealme]

I'm English, living overseas. I'm married for 17 yrs and most of that has been pretty awful. I recently 'came clean' about my abusive relationship with dh on a parenting site where I live and I have had my eyes opened for the first time that maybe it's not all my fault anymore. I have blamed myself for everything that has 'gone wrong' in my marriage - although I have genuinly messsed up on more than one occasion.

I received a lot of support from people but didn't believe I was worthy of it. Then somebody suggested I google Narsissistic Personality Disorder and that is the moment my whole world changed. For the very fist time I began to see that maybe it wasn't ME that might have all the problems. I saw my 'perfect' dh described in black and white and the words 'personality disorder' were attached to his behaviours. To say the ground shifted from under me would be an understatement.

So now I find myself at a turning point in my life. I know I have to end my marriage. It's emotionally, verbally and mentally abusive. I now recognise that I am a shell of the person that I once was, have had the life blood drained out of me, but still have enough of a spark in me to want to fight for some peace of life at 42! I have 3 children whom I love and adore - but who also love their Daddy. I'm living financially independently from my dh who refused to support me financially after ds 2 was born 6 yrs ago. I want him out of the house and out of my life!

I've made my mind up, but I am still so weak when it comes to taking action. I have spent so long living in a confused and guilt-ridden state, does that make sense?
Is there anybody out there who has experience of living with a narsissistic partner? How do you make the break? How do you ever find the strength to stand up to them in order that you might have some quality of life left for yourself? Please advise.....

Hello Toomany, it's good to hear from you again!
My rational brain hears what you are saying and will keep it stored for further use.

I'm going through a rough patch at the moment. Had a mini break down on Sat night. I got through it thanks to cyber support!

I had been on auto pilot for so long that I lost the use of my emotional brain. It was numb. On Sat night I watched a movie that had a tear jerk ending. It unleashed a tsunami in me; real uncontrollable sobbing, don't know where it came from!

Anyhow, I'm feeling pretty raw at the moment. I don't want to analyse anything, don't want to second guess ex's motives. Just don't care. I am ignoring him - in my head as well as literally. I am ignoring the 2 cans of cider he silently left in the fridge on Sat and the M & S carrier bag he 'forgot' in the kitchen. I ignored his presense in the house Sat night and will do so tomorrow night when he visits the dc. I'm ignoring his devious plan to stay close to me by visiting the dc here. I will continue to ignore his presense when he is.
I have run out of energy so will shut him out.

Not really a long term plan, but all I can cope with right now. If I'm getting back the use of my emotional brain then I want to nurse it quietly and without any manipulative influences. So ignoring him is my defensive plan.

Hello - I've been lurking.
TRM I understand how emtionally drained you are but I do feel if you can bear it, you should contact your solicitor about his insistence on coming into your house to visit the DCs.
And please do mention that he is planting alcohol on you while he is there.

Hi Therealme,
I hope you are feeling better. I have gone through emotional numbness too(different circumstances but I think the numbness is similar). The movie Mamma Mia broke my tear dam (friendships and connections with other people).

Anyway, it is definitely a step forward to treat him as if he were invisible, to have the neutral emotion in his presence. I think it is actually a great sign of strength.

The "Death by Ten Thousand Cuts" idea helps me maintain clarity-my N Middle Sister has met her quota cutting me down. I have been ground to dust by her and I will not take any more.

Call your neighbor while he is in earshot-offer it and have her come pick it up while he is still there. I wouldn't leave while he is there or he'll go through your things.

I can not guess what his reaction will be-but if he is not pleasant, then he'll be breaking the safety order wouldn't he?
I doubt it will take too many times for him to stop bringing it.

Others might (might-ha- I'm sure they will ) have a better idea. But I think that just passively accepting these deliveries of his is not good. Ask him to set them out with the trash on his way out?

I'll try to write more on numbness later-got to go.

I edited...
About the alcohol deliveries: I think it will be good to dispose of it with you XNH's knowledge.
Maybe your neighbor can help?

Personally wrt to the alcohol, I'd bag it up and give it back to him when he returns saying "you left your alchol here last time you came. Im sure you want it all back" and refuse to take no for an answer

Sorry, I disagree. WRT the alchol, show no reaction. Otherwise he'll know he's hitting a raw nerve. When people come over, say 'would you like a drink, I've got loads as XNH keeps leaving it here. I don't know why as he doesn't drink'.

Have you thought about going to your social services equivalent about the threats he is making about you children (and that is what he is doing)?

I really sympathise with your instinct to just curl up in the corner and let it all wash over you, and indifference really has a lot going for it, but your solicitor needs to know what's going on with the alcohol and that he has explicitly threatened you. He is pushing against the lines that have been drawn for him and he needs to be stopped.

Ali Dizaei Classic case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

He visited the dc tonight and was ignored by me. Wanted to take one of the kids out but I refused it - it would have meant me leaving the bedroom to mind the boys and therefore engaging in the plan for the evening.

He asked if he could collect ds from school on Thurs and suggested he call to house for a quick visit afterwards - again I refused it as it was too informal an arrangement. Too much like him integrating back into the family routine iyswim?

So; he left, and silently took the untouched cider he had left in the fridge on Saturday with him. Maybe the message is getting across? All of the above have been, to my mind anyway, craftily planned ways in which he has tried to draw me into his presense while in the house. I have not been sucked in and I will continue not to be.

I won't refuse him access to the dc here. I am not able for the battle and the dc need to see their Dad. I also feel I need to redefine the relationship he thinks he has with me. He is used to having me fall in with his plans, of getting what he wants. I will not engage with him anymore and he can have a relationship with the dc, but not with me. This will bring about the biggest revelation of all to me; will he continue to want to see the dc once he realises I'm not interested in playing anymore?
I am certainly done with him. I have no desire to feign friendly relations or pretend we are 'best friends post separation.'

Ignoring him may well be the only way to get the message across because all else has failed. He has, to date, proved he is unwilling to let go of me, so I will give him nothing more to latch on to.

I thought the biggest problem would be getting him out of the house, it wasn't! It is ending the bond with him that is difficult. He uses his 17 year indepth knowledge of me to maintain a link, a connection. He knows me inside out and in the absence of any family around me it has been too easy for me to get drawn back in to an intimate relationship with someone who shares a history with me. Away from him I have nobody over here who knows me to such a deep level. I have been far too relient on our codependence. I need to sever it now.

Not sure if I am making any sense to anybody? As usual I am using this site and opportunity to say what is going on in my head as a free form of therapy. I'm probably rambling, but I do feel the better for it.

You are so strong to have stood up to him today, TRM, and that you gave him back the cider. Well done. xxx

Your insight into whether he will want to continue a relationship with the DCs when he realises he can't use them to drag you into further engagement with him is a profound one. Of course, all the drama about the visitation is designed to provoke you and involve you with him, and indifference is what Ns really can't fathom. It's the one thing that drives them bananas. Not that he's going to give up trying, though. Steel yourself and hope he'll latch onto someone else who gives him what he craves.

I'm getting the impression that his threat of telling all about you on some public forum is still spooking you. It is really frightening to try to 'get away' from someone who has got into your head the way an N can -- they are often able to almost read minds. Sinister beyond words.

When you start to feel stronger about standing up to him, maybe you'll be able to put an end to his assumptions about visiting at your home. Bear in mind that while this option is open to him, he has no reason to hurry up and find himself somewhere else to live, and also that every occasion of contact represents a chance for him to get under your skin in some way. Of course, every time you have to be in contact presents this kind of opportunity, but having him under the same roof is particularly grating and causes a lot of tension (I know from experience).

But for now, concentrate on you, and doing whatever you can to help yourself maintain your equilibrium and your poise. xxxx

you are making sense of course. you sound stronger again today.. that's good. i wasn't free of my x after i left him. He lived in another country and it still took about a year. So you are doing really well. minor set back. it is so hard to pick somebody out from under your skin when they are there all the time, like a rash. good for you for saying NO to him about thursday.

is he threatening to unveil you, scooby doo style on RC? he could do that, but then, he'd identify himself in the process.

i agree with keeping the solicitor up to date with all new threats and his strange plan of leaving drink in your house.

E mail received tonight. I have been successfully 'ignoring' him for a week or so now. Then this. What do you think?

"i was wondering if i could possibly visit the kids in yours for an hour on sunday ? preferably late afternoon early evening but whenever suits you best. i am very grateful for your continued hospitality and i thank you from the bottom of my heart. i cant thank you enough. i was a bit optomistic setting tuesday as the next date. i miss the kids. i miss you also but that is by the way. i was trying to avoid sunday, it being valentines day and i understand if you don;t want me around.

i apologise to you again *** for everything. i have decided to take the test for npd as soon as i can afford it. as the oracle at delphi said "know thy self". it will be interesting to find out. just as another by the way if you fancy loaning me the money i will take it straight away.

there doesn't seem to be anything i can say that can heal things between us. i know i was very controlling and i know that i left you feeling very judged and im very sorry for that. i would like to be friends but i accept your anger. for some one who professes to have spiritual values i failed quite badly. it gives me food for thought because it was only by applying extreme and unrelenting pressure to the point of cruelty that i got to the truth and now hopefully with the npd test might find out more. its all a bit weird but i respect your wish not to discuss things. i will of course ask the shrink to put his findings in writing so that you might be satisfied of the outcome. if there any other tests you think i should take i will gladly take them. regardless of outcomes either future or recent or historical i accept responsbility for how i treated you and i ask your forgiveness accepting always that you are better off without me.

i accept also that i betrayed your kindness in allowing me into your home by prying. It is a rather sorry state to be reduced to and an undignified way to find things out."

This is him; Mr Nice. It is the oh so sensitive and caring side to his personna. He talks like he has just done 10 rounds with a councillor.....and yet, I also remember, in the not so distant past, the same man called me a fcking Cnt, smashed all the mirrors in the house, told me there would be 'consequences' if I didn't comply with his wishes, degraded and downlittled me, kept me in povety, punished me relentlesly for my past.

What is going on here?? Is he 'lost' without me as a stable being in order to reflect off of?
Jesus, I am so bloody confused and worn out by it all. Why won't he just move on and leave me alone? Surely after all he has done and said to me over the years he'd be glad to off load me?

Help??

Is English his second language? That message is so stilted, I kept thinking I was reading a translation.

Going to bed now. I translated the email into French for my own benefit, to see if it sounded any more genuine. Answer: no. It doesn't read from the heart at all - in my opinion. Even if I knew nothing of your story, it would fill me with contempt.

Had it been sent to me, I'd reply quite formally with an answer to the visitation request and looking forward to the results of the psych test - nothing more.

Sure you'll get more replies later. I really admire what you're doing! Stay strong & cool - and look forward to the time when your personal communications are all genuine, so you don't need to re-examine them xx

It is a familiar tone to me Grace. He has 2 sides to his personality; the cold unemotional dictator, who gives commands from his bed and incites fear if they are not carried out. And then this; the poor hard done by 'child' who cannot apologise enough and who accepts responsibility at the drop of a hat.

This is his Jekyle and Hyde personality. This is what has kept me in a state of confusion for so many years - does that make sense?
It's like, how can I blame him, how can I be so sure he is an abusive man when he talks like this? It is brainwashing I think, yes? Even now I question my decision to end the marriage. After all, he sounds so, so sorry....

Hi. Yes it is brainwashing and utter bollox. Don't be fooled. Have you counted how many times he uses the word I ?

It is all about him. He may have written it in an email in order to try and prove at some later date - in court, whatever, I don't know - that he has been reasonable and apologetic towards you.

But you know this man. Npders often have schizoid traits and this is a perfect example. The very fact that you are wobbling goes to show how very strong and bave you have been to have come as far as you have. You are allowed to have your doubts because you have normal loving feelings and can experience sympathy and empathy.

He sounds as interested in the 'result' of the npd 'test' as I am in curling. ie not a bit. He also seems to think it will be as easy to take as a trip to the co-op. I doubt that...of course he just thinks he will be able to manipulate or fool a psychologist.

I agree strongly with Grace too - it sounds very stilted and in no way does it read as though it is coming from 'the bottom of his heart.' More like just his bottom.

Grace gives good advice re reply. Or you could just ignore it completely. I would be tempted to ignore it. He will get frustrated and pissed off probably. And remember - any attention would feed his need for supply - be it a short curt reply or a longer more cross one.

When is he going to be able to have the dc elsewhere and not see them in your house?

x

Here is what I think - I have deleted the waffling portions of the email and this is what's left:

"i was wondering if i could visit the kids in yours for an hour on sunday ? preferably late afternoon early evening but whenever suits you best. i miss the kids. i miss you also. i was trying to avoid sunday, it being valentines day.

if you fancy loaning me the money i will take it [the npd test] straight away.

there doesn't seem to be anything i can say that can heal things between us. its all a bit weird. i will of course ask the shrink to put his findings in writing so that you might be satisfied of the outcome. if there any other tests you think i should take i will gladly take them."

He's asking a favour from you (seeing the kids, which is fair enough, although I have found it enormously helpful to set up a weekly time for XP to see DS) - but showing how "reasonable" he is by handing the details over to you to arrange. Which also means you are doing the running around and he doesn't have to think about anything.

"I miss the kids" etc - feeling sorry for himself. My ex texts me saying "I miss my son" - not using DS' name! - when he is drunk or e.g. this week when his new girlfriend dumped him also. Wanting to avoid valentines' day is probably feeling sorry for himself too - why on earth should a day matter, it's not like you would be going on a date!

The cheek of him to suggest you pay for him to have the NPD test! I agree with the others that he doesn't care about the outcome. I like the "Any other tests you want me to have?" at the end as well - which just shows again he doesn't really think that it is important or significant at all.

"There doesn't seem to be anything I can say..." more wallowing here...! He wants the "shrink's findings in writing" - he is only going to the shrink for your benefit, because, obviously, he is perfectly sane and you are the one who needs convincing of that!! I mean what does he think he will achieve by you being "satisfied by the outcome"??

I wondered if he is asking about seeing the kids on Sunday as a roundabout way to finding out if you have "other company"

But know so well that Mr Nice always turns back into Mr Nasty as they always revert to their true form as the Nice side is so hard for them to continue for long

Therealme - your ex has a point in his favour compared to my H. My H also has the 2 sides - dictator and the poor me, me, me, I, I, I.... But - he is never even superficially sorry and would never even envisage that he ever had anything to be sorry about. He would never take any test re. NPD nor go to a psychologist or counsellor either.

Someone said to me years ago that with my H, 'being married and having kids' just looks good on the cv. How true this is.

Right, so having read your replies here, I am thinking this;

He is on a major self pity buzz right now. His comfortable life and live in servant (me) having been taken away from him. He doesn't miss me or the dc, just the good life he had before.

He is apologising relentlessly because this has always been the pattern. He has always apologised easily in the past - but nothing ever changed. It is force of habit and that's why it sounds so stilted.

The longer I ignore him the more I break the connection between us. He is losing his identity because he cannot feed off of me. This will be interesting to watch. I believe he will persist in trying to draw me back in for a while yet, after all, we had 17 years of marriage where he had plenty of reasons to legitimatly leave - but he never did.
Seeing the dc is his connection to me. He has an arrangement with his mother whereby he can live with her rent free for 2 years in order to save for a house deposit. He will keep this arrangement whereby he can only see the dc in my house for as long as he can, but he does have a deadline with his mother.

He is agreeing to take 'tests' to show how reasonable he is. But I know him - he is arrogant and self serving. He will be smug in the knowledge that the tests will show there is nothing wrong with him and therefore prove me to be unjustified in my accusations.

The e mail was carefully crafted I'm sure of. Everything about him is controlled and planned. But, if you catch him in the morning when he has just woken up, you will see the real and unguarded person he really is. He was always at his most vicious first thing in the morning.

So, I think I will continue to ignore him. It will either cause him to meltdown because he has lost his reflection - or it will drive him to do something dramatic to insist I give him my attention. It's really just a bit of a waiting game for me now as to how it will unfold.

Yes, I agree with all the above. This is exactly how my ex used to talk to me in RL. If only I cared more, I would have understood how hard it was for him etc. He's a real fuckwit isn't he? The fact that you're wondering about this in such a detached manner is such a good thing.

I would just write (by letter personally, not e-mail) about contact arrangements. Don't comment on the testing etc., it's exactly the same as the alcohol thing from the other week.

These people are soooo tedious.

Good paraphrasing by BertieBotts I think.

He misses his coping mechanism, which was being an arsehole to you. I can well believe that he is a bit lost now, without that familiar coping strategy. You flourish, he withers, and he's obviously not happy about that. Ah well. Pity about him.

I would try very, very hard not to get drawn into his journey of self-discovery!

In your responses, talk only about the children and times and dates. I have done this with my x now. There is no dialogue or discussion about him or me or us anymore. Thank God. It did take an awfully long time to get there though, and obviously, even talking only about arrangements, he can still get the old digs in, and mess us around on power trips! but his scope to do that is a much narrower playing field now.

Also, I was thinking about this today, and I realised, the thing about him telling you he is taking the tests and that he will get the shrink to write down their "findings" - it's all about proving to you that he has changed and that he is a better person now. My ex was going on about having counselling when I first left - I don't know whether he did or not. But it's the old chestnut that you can't change a person - change has to come from within. It doesn't matter how much therapy he has, unless he truly wants to change - for himself, not to prove something to you or anyone - he is not going to (although you know that already - it's obvious from his email that he doesn't realise that at all).

Yes, only talk about the children and times and dates, and maintenence or anything related. If he asks any other questions, ignore them. If he is persistent then just say "I don't wish to discuss this." I have also mentioned earlier on the thread setting specific times to see DCs - I don't know how practical this would be to arrange for you, but I had a meeting with my XP and we both agreed the contact arrangements, to be reviewed in 3 months' time (as it was the first time we had made any arrangements) and we wrote them down on a piece of paper, both signed and dated it, and I photocopied (scanned) it and gave him a copy, so he can't say "Oh but we agreed X" when we agreed Y. We also agreed how much notice he needs to give me or I need to give him if we want to change any days or times and that there will be no permanent changes until X date 3 months from the first agreement. You could do this over email if face to face is too hard as you would still have a record. XP is still not on time for pick ups/drop offs but it is a lot better than having to play that game of arranging each meeting as we go. I know I have been lucky to get this sorted so quickly and easily though - I think I caught him while he was in super-cooperative meek mode!

In other news his new girlfriend has dumped him already. Feeling ever so slightly smug about this but keeping my mouth shut!

You ignored him for a week (well done btw) and now he's trying a different tack to get your attention, hoping Valentines day will leave you feeling a bit needy.

He wants to borrow money from you to take the test. Hahahahaha

He will have the shrink state the results of the test in writing -- is this part of some sort of offensive he is planning in the courts to prove he is the sane one? AFAIK, there's no single 'test' that can be done to give a Yea or Nay on NPD. It's a conclusion a psychiatrist worth his or her salt would come to after months and maybe years of seeing a patient. Does he think he'll get a questionnaire to fill out?

"i accept also that i betrayed your kindness in allowing me into your home by prying. It is a rather sorry state to be reduced to and an undignified way to find things out."
WHAT PRYING is he talking about?????? This reference of his left me gasping. What did he find out? Is this linked to getting the result of the 'NPD test' in writing? This is a hint that he has been poking around for information about you, your state of mind, your mental health, anything else he may think of as pertinent if he intends to make a move in the courts about custody, etc.. Keep this e-mail and show your solicitor. The prying thing has me creeped out.

Ignore everything except arrangements for him to visit the children. In light of his 'prying' remark, tell him he can't come into the house any more. He must visit with them elsewhere. It's up to him to make the arrangements if he wants to see them. DON'T LET HIM INTO HE HOUSE.

I thought that was about him finding some photos a while ago?