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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Narsissistic personality disorder

1001 replies

therealme · 19/07/2009 02:25

I'm English, living overseas. I'm married for 17 yrs and most of that has been pretty awful. I recently 'came clean' about my abusive relationship with dh on a parenting site where I live and I have had my eyes opened for the first time that maybe it's not all my fault anymore. I have blamed myself for everything that has 'gone wrong' in my marriage - although I have genuinly messsed up on more than one occasion.

I received a lot of support from people but didn't believe I was worthy of it. Then somebody suggested I google Narsissistic Personality Disorder and that is the moment my whole world changed. For the very fist time I began to see that maybe it wasn't ME that might have all the problems. I saw my 'perfect' dh described in black and white and the words 'personality disorder' were attached to his behaviours. To say the ground shifted from under me would be an understatement.

So now I find myself at a turning point in my life. I know I have to end my marriage. It's emotionally, verbally and mentally abusive. I now recognise that I am a shell of the person that I once was, have had the life blood drained out of me, but still have enough of a spark in me to want to fight for some peace of life at 42! I have 3 children whom I love and adore - but who also love their Daddy. I'm living financially independently from my dh who refused to support me financially after ds 2 was born 6 yrs ago. I want him out of the house and out of my life!

I've made my mind up, but I am still so weak when it comes to taking action. I have spent so long living in a confused and guilt-ridden state, does that make sense?
Is there anybody out there who has experience of living with a narsissistic partner? How do you make the break? How do you ever find the strength to stand up to them in order that you might have some quality of life left for yourself? Please advise.....

OP posts:
toomanystuffedbears · 04/11/2009 18:36

Hi therealme.
I hope you are doing better. Sorry I couldn't respond sooner to Sunday night's post.
I am not a single parent so I can't say "I know how you feel" regarding the enormous pressure one must feel being sole responsible parent for a child, let alone 3.

Or the overwelming feeling of emotional destruction of having to face this mountain that you would have never started to climb had you known then what you know now.

That is kind of the negative side of the perspective and it is the sort of thing that can take up the whole viewfinder and stay there...if you let it.

I know you are tired.

I think the one thing that you should concentrate on that will make a profound differenc is to stay focused on the joy that is yours now.

This goes beyond, way beyond the pat little "think happy thoughts" (which gets a bit of a bad rap-it is valid in itself).
Suggestions from Unlikely, MathA, Maggie, and Gettingagrip and others are spot on. Although I'd probably opt for a fish tank rather than a dog (not quite as high maintenance and no vet bills).

MaggieMonday's comment of filing the endless brain tapes is helpful to me. Thank you.
I still stew about my Middle Sister, but I have gotten to the point when she pops into my brain-just her name now- I immediately redirect my thoughts to something else; I would absolutely rather think about my quilts than that! That may be avoidance, on second thought, but with so many experiences heading for the "crap file", I'll just nip it in the bud and (not recycle!) trash it rather than let it bloom in my brain one more time.

So I feel I have it easy in comparison because I don't have the children in contact with N to deal with.

Explaining to your son, and your other dc in time, is the right thing to do. They can understand-they already have the feelings that things are not right and you are doing the absolutely best thing for them in giving them some validation and clarity for those feelings. It is 'debriefing' and I can guess that you will need to do it after each contact. Open the conversation with, "Did anything happen that you want to talk about?"
That is not picking directly at your Xh; it is focused on dc feelings.

I am still shocked at what he has done/is doing.

Your disconnection from him is good for 24/7 so you don't need to offer up any emotional involvement: that sucks the life out of your joy. A foster child (!!)-he is just looking for a slave-isn't it obvious? So I don't think that has any reference to you or your dc.

And for him to speak to the children in the way he has-while infuriating for you and very toxic for the dc- it is more validation and clarity of the fact of his mental defects. While it rightly angers you to no end, there should also be the shining polish of certitude that you are right to be disconnected and right to disconnect the dc as much as possible. You are right right right right right!

toomanystuffedbears · 04/11/2009 18:43

x-post TRM
"avoid describing your behavior in court" at the same time holding the blackmail letter?
That is funny !

Crystal clear, trm.

autumnlight · 04/11/2009 18:52

unlikelyamazonian - no, my dh has not been diagnosed. I have been seeing a counsellor for two years and I have discussed all his behaviour and my ten year marriage experiences and what I have been through married to him with my counsellor. She told me about NPD. I have read extensively about this over the last two years and his behaviour is typical.

mathanxiety · 04/11/2009 19:09

"At this stage I am beginning to think this is so that he can continue emailing me to arrange visits and keep this ongoing communication with me. I would rather not have to do this at all - he is still controling my life far too much in that I never know when I need to bring the dc on visits."

TRM you are absolutely right about this. The sooner you can get him onto a schedule the better. But in light of what he has been doing, I would be inclined to fight him for the privilege of seeing the children. Can you go back to WA and see what your options might be wrt blocking his access? Is there any way you can just tell him no, they're not going to spend time with him? Really, a man like this does more harm to children than having no father in their lives at all. I have to decompress my DCs every time they come back from ex's place after their fabulous weekends there

I wonder about your SIL who sent you the nice e-mail you mentioned. Any hope of getting her on your side against the ex, or would you just as soon be rid of the lot of them? Do you trust her? Or is she playing for both teams?

therealme · 04/11/2009 20:59

Okay, following yet another email from ex this evening looking for extra access at short notice, I just replied telling him I wanted 2 weeks notice from now on, sticking to the terms of court agreement of 1 afternoon/1 overnight per week.

If he can't provide me with 2 weeks notice it'll just confirm to me that this daily emailing fiasco is all about him staying in contact. Bugging me and reminding me of his existance every day lest I might think I have a life outside of his control!

Maths, the idea of a relatives help with the access is a good one. Unfortunately the sil I spoke of lives in Australia and the mil is very much a puppet to her son's demands. Ex has been manipulating her for years and she is very much in fear of incurring his wrath - I have witnessed some nasty put downs from my ex to his own mother that have made me cringe.

If I tried to prevent ex from seeing his dc he would fight me on it - no question. However I didn't expect my 11yo to be at this stage where he didn't want to see or speak to his Dad either - with no manipulating on part - so there is hope they will all see through his lies eventually.

OP posts:
MaggieMonday · 05/11/2009 15:34

You are right TRM, you hate emailing him everyday, but he LOVES it.

He'll push,push, push the boundaries of what you thought was more or less agreed, because it's the only way he has of torturing you now.

I love UA's idea of sending him a box of crappy sweets (colleen I think? they're known to be the crappiest) with a note saying you want to stick to a rigid schedule.

I bet your x is a shit to his mother.. BUT. would it still be slightly easier to deal with his puppet rather than him?

therealme · 05/11/2009 18:10

Ah yes, he loves sendng the e mails Maggie. I got an 'essay' from him this morning where he explains his need for me to be flexible with his access to the dc so that he can continue to be called into work in his extra job at short notice. He makes the point of saying I shouldn't have a problem with this as I don't work...

He made a lovely little reference to the fact that I was sexually abused as a kid and how he made an enormous mistake in marrying someone with unresolved childhood issues. How he looks forward to me getting into another relationship so I can see how somebody apart from him will react to me on an ongoing basis.

I'm pretty sure I had my faults and issues throughout my marriage, I would never claim to have been perfect. I certainly don't think I deserved to be treated the way I was though. I was unassertive as an adult and a people pleaser. I can see how this would appeal to an N. His behaviour was a lot more subtle in the early days of our marriage, he had ways of making me feel bad if I disagreed with him. He wanted to buy a run down house in another county to where we lived shortly after we got married. Expected me to commute from Kent to my teaching job in London. I said no to it and it was brought up constantly for the next 17 years as the reason why we didn't own a home.

We didn't have children for the first 6 years after marrying. This made it easier for me to always put myself and my needs second to those of my h. I was used to doing this as a kid anyway.
When I had my first baby it changed things. I found myself the sole carer of my son whilst still meeting all of h's demands too. When ds was 2yo I became badly depressed, I thought about suicide a lot, it was never treated. H would buy lavish gifts and then get angry that they didn't 'cure' my depression. He has never let me forget though. When the gifts didn't work he gave me ecstasy. That provided a false distraction from the depresion for a while. He got into some very dark sexual stuff at this time. Talked me into things I look back on now and cringe.
This whole period in my life was dreadful. I ended up having an affair with a 'friend' of my h's who he hung out with and took copious amounts of drugs with. The friend found me an easy target.

After each child was born things got worse. Our third child was conceived because we were using withdrawal as contraception as I was still breastfeeding. H decided not to withdraw because he wanted another baby, I was not involved in this decision.
Now I found myself single handedly taking care of 3 dc whilst still meeting my h's ever increasing demands. I became less efficient, tired, forgetful and unhappy. Of course h had a field day. He constantly critisised my 'incompetence' and lack of planning with the added bonus that I was an adulterer who had never made amends for my wrongdoing. His constant answer to my question as to what I had to do to be forgiven, was to say 'It's not up to me to tell you, you should know what to do'. Hence I was never forgiven, never allowed to forget.

And so now he writes that he hopes I get into another relationship so I can see how somebody else reacts to me on an ongoing basis.
He is justifying his behaviour of course. He would never have been verbally abusive, demanding, angry etc if I hadn't been the way I was.

I don't know why I just wrote all this down here, maybe it's because I want to see it all written down. Because it makes me feel better to tell someone else my side of the story, that I even have a side of it! And my version of the marriage, always dismissd and belittled by my ex, is real to me. It happened as I remember it, was as awful as I remember it - and wasn't all because of me.

My ex is always right. Everybody around him is inferior to his intellect. He lives in a world where to make a mistake is unforgivable. He set unobtainable standards and then criticised when others failed to reach them. In his eyes he should be living in a large house and driving a flash car and it is my fault that he is not because I was so incompetent I held him back. He spends copious amounts of money on designer clothes, expensive cigars and oil paintings because he believes he is entitled to these things and would have had them all and more had it not been for me!
His needs had to be met. He always found a way of getting what he wanted through deviousness and manipulation. Anyone who ever pissed him off was cut out of his life, erased.
My solicitor cannot understand the absolute detail involved in my ex's negotiations around access and maintenance. I'm used to this though - it is the way he does things to maintain control, there can be no room for flexibility where he is concerned, it must be black and white. He will offer nothing without getting something back in return, he calls it recipriosity, but really it means he can pull out of something if he doesn't get what he wants. It was the 'punishment' I endured for years if I failed to deliver.

I will end this essay now before it goes on all night. However I have found it a great source of relief to write it all down - even if no one reads it! It is free therapy so beware, I might do this again

OP posts:
MaggieMonday · 05/11/2009 19:56

Well, settle down on the chaise-longue TRM, my next client isn't in for an hour. Have some hot chocolate..

Your x will always have his twisted view of what happened, but his ranting and raving just proves that he has no comprehension of one crucial thing, no matter WHAT a marriage is like, one half can still end it.

That is the line I take with my x now. ON the very rare occasions I communicate with him, which is a little as possible. THAT is the one thing that I've ever been able to do that has pissed him off. When I stopped defending myself, and my rights and my perspective.

What sort of man doesn't grasp that you were miserable in a marriage and so you ended it. Well, excuse you for wanting a bit of life

All that talk about wanting "a relationship with a normal oman"... my x used to put his head in his hands and say exactly that too. He's had two relationships since me that I know of and I suspect they've both dropped him fairly quickly because his bitterness, temper and misogyny can't be hidden for long. He probably blames me for that too!

Well, TRM, abused as a child or NOT, you come across as more sensible and control of your emotions and life than the 'average' person. It sounds as though you couldn't have been more adventurous with him. He might find that the next woman is less of a people-pleaser. She might even say, eh, no if you don't mind. seeya

I was really boring in bed and x often used to tell me. But I felt such loathing and resentment towards him, I did the bare minimum to avoid him getting into a massive temper with me for not having sex at all I guess. ALthough the verbal abuse for being SO BORING in bed was parr for the course. Still got it over with quicker.

The being 'tricked' into last child is a familiar tactic I think. I left my x when dc1 was 14 months old and stupidly was talked into going back, he said he'd change blah blah blah. He then bullied me into having 2nd child because he knew I was beginning to contemplate a life without him.

I think that you need to threaten to go back to court and insist that the access shedule is strictly adhered to and that he respects court decision. YOU have a life too. With three children, I know what it's like,,, I only have two, some days the picking up and the dropping off has me in a tailspin!!

queenofdenial2009 · 05/11/2009 20:28

Jeez, TRM, your ex sounds really horrible. And you didn't deserve any of that crap. I'm glad your life is going to be so much happier now. I don't really care how his life turns out as long as he leaves you alone. It'll take time, but he will eventually.

MaggieMonday · 05/11/2009 20:36

btw TRM I didn't mean to imply that I've got it all sewn up in my earlier post. Hell no, do you think if we all went to Harley street they'd give us a discount seeing as there are about fifty of us now!!?

therealme · 05/11/2009 23:55

I have been reading up on the whole 'gaslighting' thing. Don't think I really understood it when I first came across it, but now that I am a few weeks out of my marriage it is making sense.
My ex would constantly make reference to my damaged childhood, the sexual abuse, my depression. If I got angry or was sad he'd ask did I need to go back on medication.

The way I see things now, he constantly kept reminding me that I was 'defective' or 'broken' throughout our marriage. He made reference to it again today in his email to me. He is implying that I am unable to function like a normal person, that he is superior because he isn't damaged. Ha bloody ha!!

Anyway, I highlighted his comments about all my unresolved issues, my untreated sexual abuse and how he hopes I get with another bloke soon so I can mess him up too, and then I cut and pasted a definition I found about gaslighting and sent his email back to him.
He won't 'get it' of course, but it made me feel better. He's been quoting psycho-babble at me for years (he reads a lot). Now I've given him a taste of his own medicine

OP posts:
poshsinglemum · 06/11/2009 05:26

God I can't believe these men.

I'm wondering if my ex had npd.

He was always right. A startling feature is that he kept moving the goalposts. He would critisise me and I would change accordingly but then he would find something else to criticise and I would change accordingly.

He controlled me through food. He was a vegetarian when I first met him and used this to demonstrate how much he cared about animals and the planet when really he cared about himself an dused it to control his environment. He used to refuse to kiss me iff I ate meat. He used to go through my parent's freezer and yell at me about the meat there. When he became a vegan he expected me to do the same and somehow got me to believ it was the best.

Anyway- I ended up dropping out of uni with an eating disorder and I almost died. Of course he buggered off completely at this point leaving me witha ruined life. I did get an apology five years after but I told him he had robbed me and I could not forgive him.

Hemade a fool of me and turned me into a person who I hated.

I still beat myself up that I stayed with him but I guess I was brain washed. I hate him.

MaggieMonday · 06/11/2009 08:24

Hi Posh, oh god, that food-control thing isn't rare. BertieBott's x did weird things with food too, as did my x used. Bertie's x would make her eat really strange concoctions and abuse her for being 'on a diet' or a fussy eater' if she didn't. My x insisted on meat every day even though I would have prefered a pescatarian type diet. ANd whatever I made he'd say something nasty like 'did you invent this 'recipe' with dripping sarcasm on the word recipe. If I cooked anything from ww cookbook, he would get really ANGry. Even if it was NICE, not a load of leaves! A proper meal, honestly, tasty! But just not loaded with cream or fat... but if he thought I might be trying to watch my weight, or watch his weight (he was wrong never gave a shit about that) he'd go beserk. He used to scream at me about the standard of the food. As though he were working undercover in the catering industry and he'd caught an incompetent manuel serving campbell's meatballs.

I love the freedom now. If I want peanut butter on brown bread and a banana for dinner then that's what I have. I don't have to make a meal for anybody else and I don't have to apologise for not wanting to eat a shank of lamb everynight of the week.

ALSO, about the moving the goal posts thing, as TRM pointed out to her x, it's in the charter, the 'right' to change your mind. Nobody should be held to every casual remark they ever made.

Well, we're on our own for now and we can be the people we want to be. OK, we have to deal with what's been put on our plate.. but ykwim.

My x is coming tomorrow. I'm DREADING it. 90% dreading it because I just feel sick at the thought of him in 'my world' especially after the stunt he pulled the last time I had the misfortune to see him, and 10% scared he'll pull some stunt and take the kids.

MaggieMonday · 06/11/2009 08:29

TRM, he'll never believe he was gaslighting you, but it might give him a moment's concern, that outsiders might perceive it that way...

I wonder if he'd stop sending you so many emails if he were to get a free diagnosis in exchange for every threat/insult he sends your way..!

therealme · 06/11/2009 12:51

Maggie, he said my accusation of him gaslighting and therefore saying he was abusive was...wait for it...abusive!

OP posts:
MaggieMonday · 06/11/2009 13:20

omg, that is priceless actually - I can laugh, and tbh, I did when I read your last post! I don't know if you can laugh!

The only way that your abuse played a part in your marriage was that it made you too much of a people-pleaser. He got all the sex he wanted and he got his breakfast in bed. If you hadn't been abused perhaps you would have told him to fuck right off about ten years ago... Abusing you and feeling superior to you has been his coping mechanism for 17 odd years. POOR little possum.

sorry if that's too close to the bone. I just have no experience of this issue so excuse me if I say something horribly inappropriate.

autumnlight · 06/11/2009 13:54

So typical N behaviour!

silentcatastrophe · 06/11/2009 16:18

It all sounds quite familiar, this behaviour. I didn't marry a nutter, thank god, but I was brought up by one. My mother stood by him and put his needs beyond the needs and welfare of her children. My brother sounds like a N too. It is very sad that people can be so so horrible.

How dare anyone say that you have unresolved childhood problems! Whatever happened to us as children is not of our making.

toomanystuffedbears · 06/11/2009 16:46

That is the sort of response my lovely Middle Sister would say-no matter what it is -doesn't matter- just turn it around on you. With her, it is a reflexive default response. A perfect example of why "you just can't talk to her"- to which she would say, "No, it is you tmsb that is the difficult one!"

Spoke with Oldest Sister this morning and she said she tried to call MS (just to be 'nice') and the phone line was disconnected.
A couple of days later the line worked, but to an answering machine that was mechanical. MS had one with her voice.

I was tempted to do a drive by, but it is 80 miles away...even with an outlet mall next to where she lives-it's still a stretch to do it. If she wanted me to know what is up with her, she'd let me know (or more likely one of my teens). Maybe she is going through some garish light of day reality of realising it was a mistake to overpay on an adjustible rate mortgage for her townhouse five years ago. She earns big bucks though and ought to be able to swing it.

Therealme-hang in there. Have you fleshed out a plan for the holidays yet? While it is satisfying to some degree to respond to xh with your truth ... it gives him more material to use against you (he will never care about your truth anyway). I think, imho, it is best to cut him dead with the shortest response to the point as possible-no emotion, you are disconnected.

Go to dash, sorry no edit.

mathanxiety · 06/11/2009 17:09

TRM, as tempting as it may be to tell him straight up what his problems are, I would be inclined to respond to his e-mails, especially those that accuse you of all the faults he lays at your door, with a one-size-fits-all "I'm sorry you feel that way". The one thing that N's hate more than anything else is indifference from someone they previously had wrapped around their finger. The one thing they crave is continued engagement with their victims and the chance to keep up the mind games.

Good for you for telling him NO about the visitation. The implication in his message regarding his work availability was that your time and plans with the children are of lesser importance than his work times and plans, and he expects the children to drop everything and run to him at the click of a finger too. Keep on telling him no except for a reasonable every other weekend schedule. This will teach him that the rules are for him too and he won't be able to get back at you via the courts because every other weekend is more than reasonable given the Safety Order.

Maggie, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you and your children's safety. Stay sane

therealme · 06/11/2009 17:53

Toomany and Maths, you are both right - I already knew I shouldn't reply to his accusations, that I was feeding in to his need to keep communication open so he can continue to justify his superior view of himself. It was just too tempting, just this once!
I listened to him spout 'therapy talk' at me for years. He was unqualified and learned it all from books. I knew there was something wrong with him (understatement of the year) but never had the knowledge I do now to defend myself.
If he was a regular, common or garden abuser then my 'evidence' might wake him up, yes. But I know he will never think he has done wrong, so I won't get drawn into defendig myself again. Promise!

Maggie, you are right. My upbringing and the sexual abuse did, of course, create a very needy adult with low self esteem. I stayed with my h and accepted his treatment because I didn't place much value on myself. It wasn't love at first sight, or anything like it, when I met him. But he was SO into me, attentive, generous, enthusiastic blah blah. He proposed within a week and we married 3 months later. I guess at the time I believed it couldn't get any better, that I would never find anyone else who idolised me so much.
God, I had no idea what was really going on. Did anyone else meet and marry an N so quickly?

OP posts:
Unlikelyamazonian · 06/11/2009 18:09

I am thinking about posting my soon-to-be ex's email to my solicitor yesterday. It is classic N.

It's all fascinating.

Debilitating too of course (I had a shit evening last night, as this toxic bollocks is so mind-bending and cruel it's still hard to brush it off. Thanks to Gettingagrip for her wise and loving support)

If you remember my story: he abandoned me and our 6 month old son for Thailand and whores a year and a half ago.
He stole our money and left me ten grand overdrawn. I had no job and no income.
He had planned it.
He had been lying and covering his tracks at the school where he taught, for a year.
He took our car, drove to heathrow, dumped it and posted me back the key.
He has paid me nothing since.
I have had to divorce him with no response from him at all.
The court has ordered that he pay all my divorce costs.
He sent me a text last week saying 'slice off your cellulite and fucking choke on it.'
His son is two this month.
I did forward an email of his to everyone in his ncontact book. It said this, to one of his young prostitutes: 'Sorry honey but I have found another Bi*ch who lets me f*k her up the a and also swaows my cm.'

Yes, I suppose that was a bit naughty of me.
I have sat on my hands for a year and a half however and done nothing. And I am not a saint. Just a flawed human and a cross one!

His 'inheritance' sounds posh. In fact the financial situation is much more than this of course and a judge would have made him pay far more I am advised, than he so generously 'let me keep.'

He is earning well in thailand, he is sleeping with numerous women, he has lied about his past and about his status.

So - just a little bit of background:

I think as a group, we should pick this email apart and try to point out the typical N traits. Shall we do it?

silentcatastrophe · 06/11/2009 18:58

Go for it! I've just been reading about Gaslighting. That's my dad to a T. And my brother. Bastards.

Unlikelyamazonian · 06/11/2009 19:17

Here it is:

Dear UA's solicitor

I've tried phoning but as that has not worked, here is an email.

I'm assuming that, as UA's legal representative you're still in touch with her. Perhaps you could pass on a couple of points.

First, she's hacked into my hard drive and has used my own email account in an extremely vindictive way. She has even telephoned people I know here to rail at them about me. As far as i'm concerned, everything is negotiable, but if UA continues to do this sort of thing it'll only end up by backing me into a corner, with nothing to lose: not the best result for anyone, but particularly not for UA herself if she's anxious to regain some financial stability and peace of mind. My own position is that I don't want any contact with her at all, and I'm not entirely sure why she still wants to be a part of my life, however destructive. I would have thought that logically, given the fact that she has acceded to most of my inheritance, her anger at what happened might have subsided just a little by now.

Be that as it may. As I said, everything is negotiable. I've informed UA that I'm willing to undertake payment of her legal expenses. However, I do have one (not unreasonable) request. I need her to send me the documentation for my endowment and also my pension, material she did not give to my brother when he went to the house to collect my papers. If she does this, and stays out of my life, as I have stayed out of hers, then I'm committed to restitution as my means allow.

I hope you agree that this is a matter of some urgency and I'd appreciate a prompt response.

Yours

Arsewipe.

*
All NPD victims, discuss.

Unlikelyamazonian · 06/11/2009 19:20

Ps my solicitor said 'let him swing.'

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