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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Narsissistic personality disorder

1001 replies

therealme · 19/07/2009 02:25

I'm English, living overseas. I'm married for 17 yrs and most of that has been pretty awful. I recently 'came clean' about my abusive relationship with dh on a parenting site where I live and I have had my eyes opened for the first time that maybe it's not all my fault anymore. I have blamed myself for everything that has 'gone wrong' in my marriage - although I have genuinly messsed up on more than one occasion.

I received a lot of support from people but didn't believe I was worthy of it. Then somebody suggested I google Narsissistic Personality Disorder and that is the moment my whole world changed. For the very fist time I began to see that maybe it wasn't ME that might have all the problems. I saw my 'perfect' dh described in black and white and the words 'personality disorder' were attached to his behaviours. To say the ground shifted from under me would be an understatement.

So now I find myself at a turning point in my life. I know I have to end my marriage. It's emotionally, verbally and mentally abusive. I now recognise that I am a shell of the person that I once was, have had the life blood drained out of me, but still have enough of a spark in me to want to fight for some peace of life at 42! I have 3 children whom I love and adore - but who also love their Daddy. I'm living financially independently from my dh who refused to support me financially after ds 2 was born 6 yrs ago. I want him out of the house and out of my life!

I've made my mind up, but I am still so weak when it comes to taking action. I have spent so long living in a confused and guilt-ridden state, does that make sense?
Is there anybody out there who has experience of living with a narsissistic partner? How do you make the break? How do you ever find the strength to stand up to them in order that you might have some quality of life left for yourself? Please advise.....

OP posts:
Unlikelyamazonian · 20/09/2009 04:13

oops

gettingagrip · 20/09/2009 08:42

Really want to know what you were posting on with that name UA!!!

Unlikelyamazonian · 20/09/2009 09:17

hi morning GG. Hope yr feeling better in yourself?? I was posting about being jealous of my neighbours enjoying a bbq while I ate ds's leftover tea alone!

MaggieBeauLeo · 20/09/2009 11:35

I wouldn't have figured it out if you hadn't said oops!

Hope everybody is well this morning. I was reading the narcissism link you posted UA and I really recognised that not only did he zone in on me as a vulnerable woman but I was also a people-pleaser. If he said "we've no milk" I would race off to the shop to get milk. I was doing that still the day before I left. I was the problem solver, but there were always so many problems to solve..

Maybe I'm getting too obsessed with all of this NPD seeing as how it was two years ago, but I really feel stronger and saner for being able to understand what happened. It doesn't dredge it up, it puts it away in a box. Or helps too. As much as possible.

The one question I'm still left with is WHY!? Why was my x a narcissist? I can speculate but that's all.

MaggieBeauLeo · 20/09/2009 11:35

I don't suppose that matters though, and it's one of the less important questions.

MaggieBeauLeo · 20/09/2009 11:35

I don't suppose that matters though, and it's one of the less important questions.

fuckadoodledoo · 20/09/2009 16:24

Have just read link UA posted (Thankyou) Left me in absolutely no doubt tha X has /is NPD, and makes me realise I'm fortunate that he's one who just disappears. Had a bad day yesterday and text him (no response) feel shitty about it but am resolved never again, seems like me and my girls have had a relatively lucky escape.

MBL i feel exactly the same, obsessed yet stronger and saner, must stop trying to explain to everyone I know tho, even a lot of the really great ones look at me like I'm mad, or desperate.

I'm toying now with the idea of sending his mother some pics of DD, her granddaughter, She lives in NI and we only met her and his sister once, they've not contacted me since he left, didn't even send a b day card to baby. Hmmm as I write that I wonder why I'm considering it, I guess partly in case he's told them lies about me, about who left whom, and partly because they are DD's family, and maybe one day she'll want to have lines of communication open. ...

Also thinking about contacting CSA, I don't know exactly where he's living but could probably find out, not about the money really, just want to piss him off as he dosn't exist in the tax mans eyes and contact from CSA may just give him a fright.

fuckadoodledoo · 20/09/2009 16:25

Hope you're all enjoying a peaceful, strees free sunday ....xx

Sakura · 21/09/2009 02:46

Just dipping in. Im still not sure whether my husband is a N, but Im 100% sure now that my father is.

ONe thing I have been thinking about a lot is the narcissists ability to make you feel sorry for <span class="italic">them</span> right after theyve done something horrible. THis has been a classic pattern with my father. He would beat me and then suddenly put on this little boy act that melted my heart.
So there I was -a child- feeling sorry for the man who had just beat me up. How fucked up is that? My father has never ever felt sorry for me.

When I was getting married my mother and father tried to sabotage the wedding in any way they could. NOw my father, whom I have limited contact with (I have zero contact with my mother) is acting like a little lost boy again because I won`t allow him to come and stay with me for a holiday (I live in a gorgeous country)

They make you feel like you are the bad person in the relationship. Their behaviour is not counted at all. Its only your (reactive) behaviour that gets examined. SO, in my case, I won`t allow my father to come to stay with me--shock horror! What a terrible daughter. No allusion at all to the suicidal pain I was put through by him in the very recent past.

toomanystuffedbears · 21/09/2009 13:07

Sakura,
Good for you for standing your ground. Maybe it is time to think about zeroing him out, too?

What did he do recently, if you don't mind my asking? If you've posted on the Stately thread, just refer the post date/time and I'll find it. I have not been following the Stately thread for many months.

I was just speaking to my Oldest (good) Sister last week about her considering cutting all contact with Middle (N?) Sister. Our family of origin has dwindled down to us 3. So cutting one out is taking a big chunk away, iykwim. It gives one pause. Middle Sister's birthday "gift" to Oldest Sister is the occasion for direction for these thoughts. It is a bit of a long story, I'll type it up later...I say N with ? because it is not for me to make the diagnosis, but with so little left to doubt...she is what she is.

Sakura · 21/09/2009 13:22

Oh, the narcissists gift giving! Please tell us what it was. MIL has just popped round with DDs birthday present. MIL is in my good books because she is respecting boundaries BUT the birthday gift was a very expensive dress about 4 sizes too big, so DD cant wear it for about 3 years . GOd knows what the hidden meaning is, I cant be bothered to work it out.
No, my father hasnt done anything specificto make me not want to have him to stay (sorry my English is really regressing!). I just know hell spend the whole time trying to get Narcissistic supply by picking fights with me.

I can handle my father as the contact is so limited. But it sounds as though the contact you have with your middle sister is more full on. If shes affecting your thoughts more than youd like, perhaps its definitely time to move on and cut or limit contact.
The way I see it, my family are my children and to a lesser extent, my husband. If your middle sister extracts a lot more from you than she offers I wouldn`T feel guilty about starting to strengthen your boundaries.

mathanxiety · 21/09/2009 17:05

The only time I ever got anything nice from my ex was one time when my mum was staying for Christmas. He could be counted on to lose every gift I ever gave him, so I eventually stopped getting him anything.

toomanystuffedbears · 21/09/2009 17:37

Hi Therealme, I hope your get away break was bliss.

Sakura, the oversized dress...
Would a gift that you have to wait ages to be able to use be manipulating your anticipation of the happy event (when you finally get to use the gift)? Like dangling the (forbidded fruit) bait in your own closet 24/7? That is a power play enmeshed with the "generosity", isn't it?

To recap my progress: The last time I was in the company of Middle Sister was at my home Christmas '07. Dd2 was born 3/08, and I did not call her to come when I was giving birth. Oldest Sister was with me-she is a nurse. Middle Sister was the last person I wanted to see, and I just couldn't "go dormant" any longer to put up with her degradations, veiled or not. OS was in agreement, although she gallantly offered to call her for me.

Middle Sister has not met her new niece yet (18 months). The phone conversation two weeks after the birth had me saying (among alot of other things) that I needed a break from the relationship; I would call her when I felt I could cope with her again. I called her on Christmas '08 and the conversation was superficial and brief as she was in the kitchen and could not give me her full attention.

She called me "by mistake" (voice dial on mobile) and I hung in there with a new found fake superficial interest in talking to her "So, how are you doing?" as condescendingly as she would say to me, like long lost mates. Again, superficial what-nots then I ended it when she went to rote subject agenda for phone calls: "what is on your schedule for today". I wasn't going to go into what I'm doing as I've learned it is just fodder for her diminishing dismissiveness.

The only other contact is the birthday and Christmas gifts. Well, no; I emailed her a couple of times when a mean aunt and distant cousin died...the first one, she said she already knew...what she said when I told her I was pg with dd2 (she didn't) (can't be much more dismissive). The other occasion I presumed- and will always in the future presume- that she already knows.

So the boundary is there. She has made no effort to reconcile, in spite of my once made comment that I'd call her when I was ready (I never will be even though I did call her that once). That is a function of her black and white thinking. She is so superior, but she will toe the line on one comment. I think she is counting on making me feel guilty for "not letting her" meet my dd2. All she has to do is ask, and until she does: I know in my heart that dd2 doesn't exist to her anymore than I, or ds & dd1, do.

I will relate the birthday gift story in another post. I think it requires so much background because it will illuminate her thinking process and motivation to some degree.

Sorry that this post is so long...

toomanystuffedbears · 21/09/2009 21:14

The Birthday Gift
by TMSB

I am the youngest of three daughters (Oldest Sister adopted). None of us golf. Our parents, who are now deceased, were golfers. From the estate, I had father's big set of clubs, MS had mother's big set and another small starter set that was my father's.

Also, fyi, I am married with 3 children, MS is single (I mean never been in a serious relationship that I know of) with no children, and OS is married with no children.

Before Dad died, Middle Sister decided to take some golf lessons and give it a try and use mother's clubs (Mom preceeded Dad in death some 18 years). From what MS has said, she can golf decently. She tried in vain to get Dad to go golfing with her. He simply would not go. He had not golfed in years, but that didn't seem to register with MS. Nor would she consider the possibility that this might be a grief point for Dad. But he would not allow her to 'force' him to golf.

Dad's clubs sat in my basement/garage for 9 years after he died. When I was about 5 m pg, we were out shopping and I told MS that I had Dad's clubs and I wanted her to take them or I'd get rid of them some how. She declared (x3) that I did not have Dad's clubs. So I had to 'rephrase that' (one of her favorite things to say) and said that I had a set of clubs in my garage that I wanted her to look at. When we got home, there was Dad's big set of clubs and she mumbled something in response. Tbh, I didn't want to hear her response and just didn't listen. So I made her take them even though she didn't have a use for them.

It turns out that Oldest Sister wanted them to give to her dh. MS had invited herself to OS's for Christmas and so could deliver them. (Point of background here: MS HATES OS's dh. OS's remarrying took her need for MS away.)

MS went on and on how ungrateful OS's dh was for the clubs: he said thank you and just put them right away which she thought was wierd somehow. He didn't kiss her toes and give her the five minute standing ovation I guess she was expecting. Tbh, he just couldn't stand her company and made an escape.

It wasn't like they were a gift from MS to OS's dh. They were an estate item that noone wanted-where were they going to land? So OS's dh said he'd take them and play occasionally-I don't think he was a golfer either but wanted to try. Btw, he is a house-husband which grates on MS's sense of moral righteousness, no end (black and white world).

One day, OS mentions to MS over the phone that they had been out golfing and she had a good time. This is a once made comment.

Both my sisters share the same birthday, two years apart. OS usually gives a house plant or a gift certificate to a gardening company. I usually give candy and/or a gift certificate to a restaurant or home improvement center (what OS always wants). MS, let me say, usually buys what we wouldn't buy for ourselves (and there is usually a good reason for that ).

This year MS told OS that her gift would be delivered to a local store. OS was to receive an email (OS is on dial-up and is hardly ever online), follow the directions to pick up her gift. MS wouldn't tell her what it was. It has to be a surprise.

OS has to jump through hoops to get her gift.
She didn't receive the email. She called the store, they had no record of what she was claiming...wtf?
OS talks to MS on the phone asks her "what is it?"
"I'm not going to tell, it has to be a surprise," MS displays her power.
OS said, "Well, fine. I don't care what it is anymore."
MS: "OK, I'll tell you. I got you a set of golf clubs."
OS: "What!!?" stunned -shock -disbelief.

I forget what else OS said after that-kind of hard to get past that shock. (My dh's jaw dropped too.)

A couple of nights later, OS was in bed and decided to not pick up the phone-it was MS.
On the answering machine: "I am calling in reference to the gift. The order confirmation number is 1111111. I repeat the confirmation number is 1111111. That number again is 1111111. You have until xyz date to pick it up." MS was obviously in office mode, but did she really have to treat OS like a subordinate pee-on? Another superiority power play: Happy F*&king Birthday.

OS is not a rich person. She is barely scraping by, especially since her dh won't/can't work (major PD-another story, but we think he just isn't employable). They can not afford golf. They might go to a public course twice a year, if that. They would never be members of a club, even if they could afford it-they would never choose that. Never, ever.

The gift was so inappropriate. The gift was all about MS and had nothing to do with OS except as N supply. MS probably bragged at the office that she was giving her sister a set of clubs for her birthday: shine on glory superiority.

The generous gift, the over generous gift. MS earns 4 times what OS does and OS (nor I for that matter) could not ever reciprocate with a gift of comparable value. Superiority power play.

Jump through hoops to get my gift: superiority power play.

You are not a golfer, but you are now because I think you should: superiority power play.

So, MS could't get Dad on the links, maybe now she will force/shame OS to play with her and no doubt win: future projected superiority power play.

I told OS she should sell them (or immediately return them when she picks them up) and get the home improvement supplies that a gift card would have been used for-what she really wanted.

When MS finds out about that, I can hear clear as a bell: "Well, I was only trying to help." Pity party, like you said, Sakura.

I just thought of this:
There will no doubt be an oration about how ungrateful OS is, as well. I am predicting that this will induce MS to call me, to grind OS to dust: How dare I think well of OS now?

Or-now that I am thinking in this vein of I'm involved somehow:
OS is now 'her' golden child and I am now 'her' bad child. Omg...could this be her new N stratagem?

I hope the story is coherent. As an ACOA, my narratives can get very sloppy.

And thanks for reading .

Digitalis · 21/09/2009 22:47

Well done TMSB! That is undoubtedly narcissistic on the part of your middle sister.

I wanted to ask - do you believe that either of your parents were NPD's? It would seem to be unusual for one person in a family to have it.

Also has your OS married a PD?

I find these family links quite interesting.

Your story reminds me very much of how my MIL behaves at Xmas (except I won't be there this year!). She will often make a drama about the present giving, or some kind of big show or a series of riddles to be solved before the recipient can get the present.

Very interesting - thanks for sharing!

therealme · 22/09/2009 00:42

Hey! I'm back in the land of on line civilisation! God it's a relief, where I have just spent the weekend there wasn't even mobile phone coverage...

I have just had a really bad evening with ds1. A combination of a bad weekend (sprained ankle and go-kart crash) and his Aspergers had him sobbing and hyper-ventilating. I have just gotten him to sleep on a camp bed in my bedroom after a full Asperger meltdown and am bloody shattered. Have been catching up on your posts and want to write an essay in reply, but can't - too tired.

I'm feeling out of sorts. Not sure if its because I'm back to reality after 'running away' to the back of beyond for the weekend? I have occasional days where depression creeps in on me, but I am usually able to fight it off myself.

Unlikely, I read your honest and raw post about how you 'lived' following your ex N's flight. You are describing many aspects of my life now. I am smoking my brains out and hitting the sauce far too much in order to fall into some kind of alcohol induced sleep. I am often awake in the small hours wandering aimlessly around the house and if I do try to go to bed at a reasonable hour I have a fitful sleep, broken by vivid and alarming dreams. I wake up in a cold sweat. My weight is now down by 3 and a half stone. I am so, so tired yet here I am, burning the midnight oil once again...

Flaminhell, I know exactly what you mean when you question yourself constantly over the NPD thing. I go through episodes of thinking that I have gotten it all wrong, that I have made a huge mistake. It's like I have forgotten what living with my ex h was like only a few weeks ago. He is behaving so bloody civilised and considerate towards me now. I made reference to a couple of incidents to him recently where he smashed all the mirrors/pictures in the bedroom not so long ago; and on another occasion he threw all the plants at the open bedroom door when I lay on the bed. He catagorically denies doing these things. But I did not imagine them! I remember these things happening! Yet he is adament that they did not happen because he does not remember them. Can this really be real? How can he not remember - there was shattered glass all over the bedroom and he left it there - the dc saw it - until I cleaned it all up. How can he deny it happened? It is things like this that cause me so much confusion, makes me feel like I am going mad, because he is behaving like an intelligent, in control, rational being at the moment, who is ever considerate and respectful of my needs. Yet THIS IS NOT WHAT I REMEMBER!!!

I keep the mantra in my head, 'What's in it for me?.' I have been advised to go to mediation to sort out the maintanace and access to the dc and then apply for legal seperation. Ex h has said that if I delay the mediation for 6 months so he can save money to get a house deposit together, he will replace my dying car. He wants 6 months lee-way, I want a new car. I am willing to negotiate, with the idea that if he doesn't honour his end of the 'deal' in 6 months time I hit him hard for maintanance through mediation. I am trying to think like him here, if he wants something then I will oblige as long as I get something that I want too. Lets face it, he isn't going to go away, I might as well start learning to play the game too.

Flaminhell, I just realised that I am doing your 'lost love' thing in reverse. I mean, you are burning a candle for your ex as you remember him, but seeing your 'new' ex N in all his terrible glory. I have the 'terrible' ex memories, but am now dealing with a remorseful and compliant ex who is trying sooo hard to please.
It's Jeckyl and Hyde. It is so not normal. What is normal anymore? Fucked if I know.

OP posts:
therealme · 22/09/2009 00:48

Sorry, think I did write an essay after all

Thing is, I could write more, my mind is very unsettled right now. I am out of sorts

OP posts:
Sakura · 22/09/2009 00:55

Ugh, she just sounds horrible TMSB. But as I read your post I just pity her. She exists on the attention and feedback she gets from you only- a real N. She has no existence of her own. I wouldnT take the pity so far as to put her needs before yours, though. As for my MILs dress, I intend to return it to the shop ASAP and get it in DDs correct size.

Sakura · 22/09/2009 01:02

therealme,
THey DO deny reality. Im not sure exactly why they do but lying and denial of reality is part of the disorder. In my mothers case its so that she can releas herself of any accountability for something shes done or said: If I cant remember it I donT have to apologize for it.
Thats what the Americans all "gaslighting", apparently based on some 1940s film where the husband turns down the gaslight so the room is dim. The wife comments that the room is dark and he tells her its all in her mind to make her doubt her own sanity.
My "D"H did this to me last night. I asked him to pick the baby up and he pulled this face that showed what a chore it was. So I said, not donT bother if its that difficult. He flat out denied pulling the face. Said he hadnT done it, didnT know what I was talking about. I think he has an image of himself as a perfect father and husband and him pulling a face doesnt buy into that image. The FALSE him wouldnT have done that, therefore he couldnt have. And so he truly believed I had made it up.

Sakura · 22/09/2009 01:05

That is the "psycho" element of narcissism. A person who denies reality is quite scary when you think about it.

Sakura · 22/09/2009 01:24

I just found this:

"This classic 1944 film is the story of Paula, a young, vulnerable singer (played by Ingrid Bergman) who marries Gregory, a charismatic, mysterious older man (played by Charles Boyer). Unbeknownst to Paula, her beloved husband is trying to drive her insane in order to take over her inheritance. He continually tells her she is ill and fragile, rearranges household items and then accuses her of doing so, and most deviously of all, manipulates the gas so that she sees the lights dim for no apparent reason. Under the spell of her husband's diabolical scheme, Paula starts to believe that she is going mad. Confused and scared, she begins to act hysterical, actually becoming the fragile, disoriented person that he keeps telling her she is. In a vicious downward spiral, the more she doubts herself, the more confused and hysterical she becomes. She is desperate for her husband to approve of her and to tell her he loves her, but he keeps refusing to do so, insisting that she is insane. Her return to sanity and self-assertion comes only when a police inspector reassures her that he, too, sees the dimming of the light.

As Gaslight makes clear, a gaslighting relationship always involves two people. Gregory needs to seduce Paula to make himself feel powerful and in control. But Paula is also eager to be seduced. She has idealized this strong, handsome man, and she desperately wants to believe that he'll cherish and protect her. When he starts behaving badly, she's reluctant to blame him for it or to see him differently; she'd rather preserve her romantic image of the perfect husband. Her insecurity about herself and her idealization of him offer the perfect opening for his manipulation."

therealme · 22/09/2009 01:31

Sukura, that is what I am having so much difficulty with at the moment. After years and years of hearing how I was the one in the wrong I cannot adjust now to the idea that my ex h was wrong. And yet, he denies something that I remember so clearly! It makes me wonder what else he has distorted in my memory. Things I might have remembered over the years but had reversed by my h. I can't even rely on my perception of the past anymore. Did things happen as I remember them? Or am I only remembering a version that my h has planted in my head over the years?
My memory of the past has suddely become open to question. Have I distorted my own memories of the past because I been brainwashed into thinking that events happened a certain way because ex said they did ?
I don't know what was 'real' and what was a lie planted in my mind by my ex anymore.
He has always been so adament, so convincing, of what he knows to have happened, and I always rejected my own thoughts and feelings in the face of his certainty.
It means I went along with his delusional view of the world. It means my world was a complete delusion too! I'm having great difficulty getting my head around all this. The whole 'fake' thing is beginning to hit home for the first time and it's very hard to take in.

OP posts:
therealme · 22/09/2009 01:52

I think I need to see that film.

I have been in a state of 'numbness' since the whole court/h leaving episode. It hasn't helped that he has been acting like Mr Perfect towards me since then either. I have always believed he was right, I needed him to be in control and he was, but it meant I allowed myself to 'vanish' to the extent that I believed his version of reality rather than what I saw with my own eyes.
He really did control my life.

OP posts:
toomanystuffedbears · 22/09/2009 02:28

I've seen the Gaslight film. There is a secret room in the attic that the husband sneaks into for his evil sanctuary. When he goes in there-from climbing the fire escape outside and going across the roof or something-and turns on the gas light-the rest of the gas lights in the house momentarily dim because of the gas pressure difference when the added light comes on.

He tells her she is imagining the fluctuation in the light so she won't think to figure out that another light is being turned on. Then wonder where and why? And find his sanctuary.

It is a disturbing movie, so brace yourself.

toomanystuffedbears · 22/09/2009 02:33

Therealme,
Your brain is beginning to heal. And regenerate itself. I thing that is why you wake up in the middle of the night. That is a time when you are physically relaxed (ie: sleeping) so your brain feels it is safe to climb out from under its rock.

I am not sure how to coach you through this, but I wouldn't fight it. Try to embrace it,
"hello, brain: what are we going to figure out tonight?"

Got to go...
Take care (eat vegetables) and you will heal.

I hope your ds is better.

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