Narsissistic personality disorder

[therealme]

I'm English, living overseas. I'm married for 17 yrs and most of that has been pretty awful. I recently 'came clean' about my abusive relationship with dh on a parenting site where I live and I have had my eyes opened for the first time that maybe it's not all my fault anymore. I have blamed myself for everything that has 'gone wrong' in my marriage - although I have genuinly messsed up on more than one occasion.

I received a lot of support from people but didn't believe I was worthy of it. Then somebody suggested I google Narsissistic Personality Disorder and that is the moment my whole world changed. For the very fist time I began to see that maybe it wasn't ME that might have all the problems. I saw my 'perfect' dh described in black and white and the words 'personality disorder' were attached to his behaviours. To say the ground shifted from under me would be an understatement.

So now I find myself at a turning point in my life. I know I have to end my marriage. It's emotionally, verbally and mentally abusive. I now recognise that I am a shell of the person that I once was, have had the life blood drained out of me, but still have enough of a spark in me to want to fight for some peace of life at 42! I have 3 children whom I love and adore - but who also love their Daddy. I'm living financially independently from my dh who refused to support me financially after ds 2 was born 6 yrs ago. I want him out of the house and out of my life!

I've made my mind up, but I am still so weak when it comes to taking action. I have spent so long living in a confused and guilt-ridden state, does that make sense?
Is there anybody out there who has experience of living with a narsissistic partner? How do you make the break? How do you ever find the strength to stand up to them in order that you might have some quality of life left for yourself? Please advise.....

Message withdrawn

WELL DONE therealme!!!!!

Chin up girl!

I am three years down the line from you.

My exHN still gets me off guard sometimes.

But now I think about things much more and always look at it from the point of view of...'what is HIS agenda?'

Find his Achilles Heel...what is he most afraid of? It could be anything....his colleagues' respect, his mother's ire, anything...and hit him with it. Hard.

Be pro-active not reactive. These creatures are like aliens from another planet, and their sole purpose is to suck you and your children dry and leave you for dead on the side of the road. They have the same 'feelings' and 'empathy' that you would have for an old shoe you found in the gutter.

YOU and your children ARE that old shoe, to him.

You' be fine. Keep posting.

And don't reply to his texts. Easy!

xxxxxxx

Therealme; Squiggly is right. He is building a case against you. Why else would he have asked that you give him the DS's shorts that had the hole in them? He will not bin them. He wants the shorts to show someone that you have your child going around in rags while he buys them new ones which you refuse to dress them in. The remark about the medication and the alleged mood swings is double edged: it is designed to make you wonder if you are nuts, or if you come across as nuts to others, and so undermine your self-confidence, get you worrying about your mental state. It is also designed to intimidate you, because if he has said this to you, he will say it to his solicitor. He said it to you as a fact? Not an accusation? Just a remark in the course of a conversation? Whether or not he believes it, it's a damaging thing to say about you to anyone. Any remarks he makes about your mental health, mood swings or parenting practices are designed to leave you feeling threatened and unsure of yourself. They are all put-downs.
When you e-mail the new rules of play to him, make sure it looks like a reasonable, sane e-mail. No accusations against him, and no expressions about your feelings. First, tell him future contact will be by e-mail and will be just about arrangements regarding the children. You could then state, not say "I feel", that it's now time in the process of separation for the children to have a reliable, dependable schedule for contact with the children. Then suggest one afternoon, e.g., Saturday or whatever (start low in negotiations) and state the time period you want. He may come back saying this is unreasonable and want more visits. I really wouldn't go beyond one more afternoon or evening, maybe a weekday when he could get them dinner and then back an hour before bed. If you have to fight it out, keep on the tack of minimising the upsetting of the children's regular schoolweek routines and bedtimes, and maintaining their sense of security in their own home with their primary caregiver (you). And remember, if push comes to shove, he doesn't have a key and you don't have to answer the phone. If he turns up angry at the house, or phones you and makes any kind of a fuss, be prepared to call the Guards. You can use that court order. He knows it's hanging over him like an axe; that's why he will try intimidating you by any other means besides violence. (Hence the mind games he has already started.) Putting your foot down may force some sort of crisis, but you have that order.

I don't know if you've made contact with a solicitor; if not I would really consider making this a priority.

We're all cheering you on; you're amazing

Hello to all.

Can I just say before I introduce myself, thank god for this thread! I thought I was going mad It has taken me a long time to read through it all and the websites I've found on NPD - echo, Sam Vaknin, a few others... not ventured onto the psycopath forums yet. So it's been about 2 weeks since I first heard about NPD and I started to think maybe??

So basically I think my P is very probably a N. I can't really describe how I feel about it, partly relieved, but mostly absolutely terrified The relief comes from the fact that I'd identified the fact he was emotionally abusing me but something I couldn't put my finger on was stopping me from thinking simply about getting out - I had this niggling feeling he was not right, that something was making him behave this way - and he's certainly not "normal" (whatever that means!!) just little things, or ways he behaves, examples of which I always find hard to explain but have been mentioned on this thread multiple times over. It's like I can't discuss his behaviour with someone who doesn't know him because they would not get it, at all, and yet on this thread he has been described right down to a T again and again.

But of course I am scared, now that I know about it, I have to face up to it

Sorry, I don't want to hijack the thread. I was thinking about starting a new one (probably with a less obvious title) but I really wanted the input of all of you fantastic ladies. If you think it would be better for me to keep on posting here I can do that. It's just he's been through my history recently and shook me a bit by saying to me "You think I've got mental problems. You've been looking up something, nautism or something, what mental problem do I have that begins with N?" - he hasn't mentioned it since but I don't think he will have forgotten it. I just feigned innocence. (The nautism thing is that he has difficulty with words he doesn't know - he always says he's dyslexic but again something feels slightly off about that diagnosis. I've known a lot of dyslexic people and he doesn't seem dyslexic to me in terms of writing, only when he reads unknown words.)

Anyway I will post more later as DS is getting unsettled. Thanks for reading

Hello Bertie

Welcome to you!

Please continue posting. Sadly the ladies on this thread know a fair bit about NPD. Often the people with this disorder have other disorders running alongside their NPD so they can present with varying traits.

There is life after narcs! That's the first thing to know.

What is your own family background and that of your partner? Narcs don't usually arise from the earth fully formed. And narc's assistants are usually trained from childhood to be supply, so it's very difficult to know what is 'normal' for them.

xxxx

Hi Gettingagrip

If I suddenly disappear it means he has come home and will be back tomorrow!

Family background, I suspect there is much to be analysed there! My own is fairly simple, I don't think either of my parents is a N - though my mum does keep saying that my P reminds her of him. However he's now happily married to my stepmother and it does genuinely seem that my parents' marriage failed because of a personality clash or he just grew up a lot before meeting my SM. (Although actually my SM is a bit strange as well). My parents divorced when I was about 6 and my sister was 3, it was handled fairly well, my mum was fab at protecting us from it I think, because I have never felt that it has affected me (though I suppose it must have done) - but my mum hasn't had a relationship since, so I have never really had a role model for the man's part in a healthy relationship. My mum is really lovely and supportive but quite vulnerable herself. She has been hurt more than once by men including during her childhood, I might go into more detail later. Actually although she is supportive I do think she might be a bit "too" supportive, if that makes sense - I have heard the term "enabler" but don't want to apply it without knowing exactly what it means.

P's family is definitely weird. I don't actually know much about them because he "doesn't remember" most of his childhood. I know his Dad left when he was young (not sure what age, I have a feeling about 4ish but not sure) but I don't know why or who ended the relationship. He has a stepfather who he considers to be his Dad - his "real" dad still lives in the same town but has had nothing to do with P or his brother since he left, not even a birthday card. A family friend saw him after DS was born and asked "Aren't you going to see your grandson?" and he just shrugged and said no. He has remarried and has 4 or 5 children with his new wife. According to a family friend (the gossipy type ) nobody expected him to cut contact because he adored his sons and was the most doting father. P has mentioned (a rare memory, though it sounded as though he was repeating what his mum had told him) that he used to spend £80 on those claw machines at the seaside until he won P a cuddly toy.

P's stepfather (will call him FIL though we aren't married) is a strange, cold man. He scares me slightly - P is certainly scared of him, though I don't think he'd admit it. P has told me (not sure whether this is true) that he was hit with a belt and occasionally a cane when he was naughty, he also mentions (frequently) that FIL once held him up by his neck against a piece of furniture for not paying his mum rent on time (FIL has also mentioned this so I think it is true) - now, we are quite young, this (the punishments) would have been happening in the late 80s/early 90s, so it's not like when everyone did it, it had largely died out by then. FIL and MIL have a daughter (so P's half sister) and the way they used to speak to her (not so much now she is 13) indicated to me that they had no respect for her as a person as she was "only a child". P remembers she was left to cry it out as a baby and MIL always goes on about what a "good baby" P was, who slept 12 hours from birth.

MIL is your typical MN MIL - opinionated and absolutely adores her son and is a real mother bear if anyone dares criticise him - which is why I find her closeness to FIL puzzling given his relationship with P. She is quite like P in certain ways. She is a bit strange but mostly just nosy and opinionated, I think.

Finally P has a brother who is totally normal and I think I obviously picked the wrong brother Oh and there are FIL's parents who are still alive and FIL's mum is very opinionated and nosy as well - she was always telling me to put DS down and stop cuddling him so much when he was tiny. FIL's father is quite sweet and she bosses him around all the time, you can tell he just does what she wants for a quiet life.

Thanks UA... (few posts back now, but tvm)

TheREalMe,, Well, his next 'stage' has come. Brace yourself. Could be a rough ride. I think that you do need to watch him like a hawk, and be careful that he isn't given opportunities to TWIST things.

But still, a pair of shorts with a small 'fray' is not neglect!!! These children were taken to the ZOO not too long ago, what a lovely day out, and not cheap. When was the last time their Dad took them anywhere that cost 50 euro.

In a nutshell. Don't WORRY, he can't prove that you're neglecting the children because You AREN'T. So, just watch what you say an do and line up your ducks, but try not too worry too much.

BertieBotts, welcome on board! (although it's TRM's thread). We need more life boats! This NPD is too common.

Hi Bertie, welcome to the 'Learn all you can about NPD - quick' thread! It's pretty gob-smacking when you start to realize that you are not infact the biggest loser on the planet and there is, infact, a label other than 'dick-head' that can be applied to your other half.

Uh oh, think I'm just hitting the 'anger' stage....

Just linking in to say, I have ignored ex h's texts all day - except once, when I told him I didn't appreciate his snooping in my bag/bedroom and that I was entitled to my privacy (or secrets as he puts it) because the marriage is over.
He has been all sweetness and light since this mornings talk about going to jail if I expose his financial abuse in court. Really I'm not surprised, he always made his nastiest verbal attacks in the morning. It's like his 'true' self was always on show in the a.m. maybe because he hadn't quite woken up and adopted his 'false' self for the day yet?
So, I have ignored him and his manipulating comments. Have refused an offer to go to Cork for the night with him when he brings the dc. Have replied briefly and factually to any texts regarding the dc (they are staying over with him at his mothers tomorrow night and he wanted to know what to give them for breakfast...what does that tell you?)
He obviously thinks I am pissed off with him (no shit?) and has adopted the Mr Nice personna once again.

Actually, with regard to his achilles heel, I think that the whole notion of being exposed in court and having to undergo the shame is what it is all about. Shame is the big fear factor here. It would link in quite well with what I know about his childhood. To be exposed and therefore shamed as an abuser is my weapon to use against him. Think I am starting to get the hang of this....

Hi Therealme,
I am glad for you that you've (again ) broken away from the brainwash training from your xh and are now proactively building your walls.

You mentioned earlier of feeling stupid.

You are not stupid.

It is good that you are able to feel again. And even better that you can identify it in the moment (something I still need work on).
Again:

You are not stupid.

That is, imho, the keystone of the NPD's strategy of destruction-to make you think you are stupid...to make you not trust your own brain (gaslighting-that is complex, but that is what this is, isn't it?).

You are not stupid.

Please be aware of your physical state as you focus on your mental condition. When you are excessively fatigued, for example, be aware that you need to slow down and give extra effort to maintain focus and clarity to not let your guard down, or slip back into numbness. Try to maintain excellent nutrition, take the vitamins etc, if you don't already.

I think it is these day to day foundational elements-rest, nutrition, exercise-that will help sustain you through this extended ordeal. You are a formidable foe, and I, for one, don't think your xh has any idea who he is up against. Toast the bastard-he is toast!

therealme,
i just want to add to the encouragement. It is a formidable task to break away from a narcissist and you have a tremendous amount of natural insight that has enabled you to do this. These boards are brilliant aren`t they? They are a perfect weapon against the narcissists because you can post exactly how you feel, anonymously, and learn again and again that you are normal and that the behaviour you are up against is crazy. TMSB is right: you have a battle ahead of you so try to focus on things like diet and excercise because that is a positive way of getting rid of the excess adrenaline.

Toomanystuffedbears, the nutrition advice reminds me of when I first escaped came home. I used to buy those vitimin drinks, made out of carrot juice and broccoli. Jesus they are vile, but it was like self-flagellation I suppose, I FELT that I was nurturing myself and because of the taste of those drinks being so awful I was super-aware of the vitimins going into me. Like re-charging myself.

TRM, You can stop feeling guilty about your children missing their Dad. He's probably confusing them with his EXTRA attention to them and coming and going.

If you do make the decision to cut contact down to twice a week, and stipulate times and days, then they will no where they are again, they won't be waiting and wondering if he's going to walk in the door...

Remember, you are entitled to your privacy, you're entitled to arrange time slots for visits. You don't have to plea bargain wiht him to be allowed arranged reduced visits. Don't justify it or reason it.

At the moment your whole week and schedule must be revolving around pandering to him maybe dropping in. It must be awful.

I've just worked out this morning who the N is in my family - my uncle, ie my Mum's older brother. Who other than an N would chat up his teenage daughter's friends and actually think he has a chance??

I've also realised something else which I never understood before - P has been devaluing all my friends and family (because they are normal, intelligent people who dare to make a point against him and therefore aren't good Sources) and slowly driving the people I can trust away so that it is harder for me to talk and confide in them. My cousin (daughter of my Uncle N) actually ended up ill when she stayed with us a few months ago. He also damaged irreparably the (entirely platonic) relationship I had with a close male friend when he lived with us for a year, he must have been devaluing him the whole time he lived here. No wonder he never really settled in the area, and I was taken in - I thought it was my friend who had the problem

I do want to say it's not all bleak here. P has a friend (I'll call him E) who is also a major source of supply to him, he speaks to him in the same disrespectful way he speaks to me and puts me down in front of him because he knows he wouldn't think anything of it either. But E absolutely saves my sanity sometimes. We have just been on holiday for a week (Me, P, DS and E) - this was just after I had heard about NPD. We went to the Isle of Wight and travelled over on the hovercraft, P paid in cash and was given the reciept and the (return) ticket which was printed on reciept paper and so looked similar. On the day before we came home, P looked through his wallet and pulled out the reciept and then started ranting that "someone" had thrown away the ticket and it had happened between the ticket office and getting on the hovercraft. Neither me or E had any recollection of it, in fact I thought that the ticket had gone straight into P's wallet.

Later we went to a pub to have dinner for our last night on the island, P went off to play the fruit machine (one of his many addictions) and E said to me "He drives me mad, he always does this! He must have thrown it away, because how does he know exactly what happened to it, when neither of us do?" I thought then about mentioning NPD to him but then decided it wasn't a very good idea... if he mentions it to P I will be accused of "psychobabble" (Which apparently is what I do every time we have an argument and I try to explain how I am feeling). Anyway it is nice to have someone to laugh about it with, I know that's not very nice, but you have to laugh really or you'd cry! And it is a good real-life antidote to everyone else who sees P's "normal" face.

Wow that was hell of an interesting read! But it has me thinking of a situation going on now. A guy I know and is a grood friend doesn't have an empathy - none -zero! He never shows any emotion. He is extremely status orientated and everything has to be the biggest and best. He is an expert at wine, gourmet cooking, claims to eat in every Mitchelin star restaurant, acting, singing - sings opera etc etc and sporty as well - prefect body - runs, clycles, skis, greek wrestling the list goes on...

He always said he never wanted kids and was living with a girl he was cheating on for the last year and a half.

But now with the recent baby boom and everyone having babies and the whole status thing associated with marriage and fatherhood he wants on BADLY.

Well he didn't tell his girlfriend because she is older and didn't want kids and thought he could just keep that going anyway.

But what he did do is propose to the live in girlfriend that he says he doesn't love or feel passion to. He was previously planning on breaking up with her as he says his feeling to her are 'stoic'.

Now he is jetting off to Asia and a big engagement cellebration and also planning a huge elegant wedding in early spring and wants a kid (preferably a boy) right away. He also says he only wants one.

This is guy is youngish only 34 and seemed to have a good head on his shoulders and is always happy, smiling and not even a hint of a temper. He is very unemotional and always asks questions and has an insatiable curiousity. He was crap at returning calls, remembering birthdays, giving compliments and generally competes with people on everything.

But now I am deeply worried that he is doing competitive fatherhood! His vision is that his 'son' is ging to be the perfect mini-him.
He is already acting superior and talking about all the games and fun he will have with the kid and teaching him opera, theatre, sports etc.

I am sure he will give the kid a great life and spoil him with every advantage, toy, life experience out there...

But can anyone in this arrangment really be happy?

I should also add he is disciplined but now domestic - he likes to lie around quaffing wine while the cleaner cleans...

His income isn't that great to let lifestyle continue afer the baby costs. Plus his hours are 12 hour days!

BertieBotts, early on in my relationship with X, he listened sympathetically I thought to the various and normal trials and tribulations that I and all my friends had lived through throughout are twenties. Then, ten years later, he would throw it back at me if I said, eg, that I DO want to go to Caroline's wedding yes!! He would refuse to go and invent an excuse, such as you said she was patronising to you in 1997. It would have been long forgotten as far as I was concerned, but never forgot a black mark against anyone and would pull it out of his sleeve when he needed it.

dykwim?? He jsut slagged off everyone else in my life. I had lots of nice friends who all tried harder with him than he deserved, and he never had a good word to say about any of them.

Maggie, that is so familiar - my X got me to open up in the early days too, then used it against me, saying I was always "going back" ie couldn't let go of the past, old boyfriends etc. He would use it to undermine me and justify his jealousy and attempts to control me.

My X was clever, he didn't slag off all my friends, he knew they were my family so what he did was more insidious - he made out that I treated them like my parents, and used them too much for emotional support, and somehow made me feel that was a bad thing.

I am still going over stuff in my head and thinking, oh THAT'S what he was doing. He didnt actually mean what he said, it was just calculated to make me do X"

I think that process will go on for a long time.

I know it is too late to stop what happened to you. But with my friend I can't help thinking that this is a concious choice.

My friend admits to everyone he has no empathy. Within a very short time of knowing him it also becomes apparent that although his very charming, smart and goodlooking he there is something different about him. He is warm when he is happy and relaxed but doesn't seem very emotional at all.

He acts with an unemotional detached coolness and rationalises everything.

His girlfriend is no stranger to this. I been out with him many times when she'd be phoning him 10 times or more and he never responded because it was not in his interest to do so. Yet now she is marrying him. He said he is 'stoic' when he is around her but she is in love with him and wants his baby.

If a guy has little or no empathy that is MAJOR! As you know now it is a characteristic of N or Pyscho.

We talked about his lack of empathy and he said that is one of the reasons why he didn't want kids and to focus on what he wants to do. Now he thinks he can have both.

She is signing up to this. The whole motherhood, her career on hold and getting in with a self admitted psycho.

I was involed for 7 years with a man with OCPD. All the warning signs were there and I ignored them because everything seemed so promising. I was getting a good looking man, house, child and we had so many commonalities and interests.

Now I know none of the matters. The only thing that matters is 'character'. What I look for now is integrity and authenticity.

When I see the warning signs I say no thanks! In fact I run.

Narcissists, Pychos, and to a certain extent OCPDers, can never give you real love. They can only give you conditional love. They have proto-emotions. When you are pleasing them they love you. But you constantly need to up your game. Because eventually the thing that pleses them becomes 'standard or common' and you now must do more!

Behind your back they will do as they please. They will expect you to turn a blind eye. Of course the moment you do or get followed they loose all respect for you. Because now they have a reason to feel superior. "I can outsmart you".

Right now my friendship is in jeopardy because I just can't support him marrying a girl he is not 'in love' with because he wants a son like him.

I know he is not evil and is a great guy but I also know and fear this is a huge mistake. He cheated on her right up until he proposed and probably after.

He knows it is wrong but he is compelled to put his wants and needs first no matter what.

Normally after marriage and child most people put the needs of the family first. He won't because he is incapable of it.

serenity, does your friend know that he was cheating on her?

It would be really hard to warn her about him as she will not want to hear it probably.

But if she has no idea he was cheating (are you totally totally sure he was?)...well, maybe she should know that before making such a drastic commitment?

Serenity, thank you for that last post, it reminded me a lot about how my marriage worked. The detached unemotional logic that my ex applied to everything meant he never lost control, was always prepared for every eventuality. I think that was partly why I disengaged and stopped trying to 'fix' things in my marriage in recent years. There was no point in arguing my side of things, he would quote what I did or said on June 25th 1998 for example, to put me back in my place. Any plans or ideas I had for our family that did not meet his approval or liking were pulled apart - not in an obvious way, always with rational argument.

When I saved enough money to visit my sister in Australia, ex h borrowed it. He then slowly talked me into the idea that going to Oz was a bad idea, he had college and couldn't look after the dc, what had my sister ever done for me? the dc would miss me, the money could be put to better use for the family. Of course, I never saw the money again. My sister went on to have her first much wanted baby at 40, and I wasn't there.

I never once stopped my ex from doing what he wanted. He took pleasure trips all over Europe. Bought what he wanted, when he wanted. Instant gratification meant he could always justify his spending. He was obviously trying to fill the void in his life, still is actually.

Hi therealme - how are you doing with the business of stopping him just dropping in? Has it stopped yet?

Actuall I realise asking "has it stopped yet" is probably a bit stupid - but have to explained it's no longer OK?

Oh dear - please excuse illiterate typing!

Katisha, he asked today if it was ok to drop down to the house - I said no. He was his usual 'cool' unemotional self about it although I expect the cogs in his brain were working overtime with this information.
He made a comment about not being able to afford to take the dc out. This is shite as he has plenty of money to still buy clothes at the moment. I told him there were plenty of 'free' things to do with 3 kids - have been doing them myself for years.

So; I have no doubt that he will try to find another way to keep tabs on me now that I have closed this particular avenue off. I can certainly see how he believes I am his 'property' and this is the reason why he wants to keep me close by, to guard me, if you like. The whole notion of me breaking free from him has never arisen before. He always knew I would stay because he convinced me I was so needy and unable to cope without him (or his precious money which he bestowed on the dc occasionally.)

I guess my taking control has really thrown him. He is not used to being on the receiving end of my demands. He will have to come up with some creative ideas to get what he wants now; but this is something he is very good at and has had a lifetimes practice at doing. His sneaky manipulative planning will be ongoing until he decides to discard me, whenever that will be.

Well done, therealme

Unlikelyamazonian -

I absolutely know - in fact quite a few people know. Because for the past year he was saying he was going to dump her but couldn't because of the house prices would put them into negative equity if they sold. But that changed when the new girl didn't want to have kids - so he turned around and proposed to the girl he was supposed to be dumping!

Yeah I could warn her but she wouldn't believe me and she has been treated badly enough to know that all is not right. I can't be expected to follow him through life warning every girl. The man is gorgeous and charming and a new girl appears every 5 minutes. He is a compulsive and consumate flirt!

If girls/women want to see the truth all they have to do is open their eyes. I was the same once and I ignored the warnings. Even now when I see people make excuses for some one's bad behaviour I cringe. "But it is the dissorder that makes him this way"...

That is like saying that there is this perfect man trapped inside this 'persona' and every negative thing can be blamed on it. Nonsense!

He may have low-impulse control but he still knows it is wrong to cheat and he does with relish do to his lack of concious. But that doesn't mean that it is an unconcious choice.

She must suspect something - its not like he goes home every night. She is probably hoping he will change. Another girl burying her head in the sand and hoping everything will work out.

Since some of you have been married to this type of person for a long time...

How has this person changed over the years? What were they like as a young father compared to now?