Husband says it's over, wants custody of DD

[MollFlounders]

I would really appreciate some thoughts on my situation. I've posted a few times recently about DH. There have been issues in the past but things have been particularly rocky since I went back to FT work 3 months ago (DD is now 9 months old). DH has always been quite selfish and inflexible (previous threads on this are here and here) and this has, for me, become more and more difficult to cope with since having to juggle a demanding job and of course DD. Things are at the point where counselling is required. I found a counselling group who will see us each separately and then together in a facilitated session.

So DH and I had yet another row yesterday morning. It was very trivial. I was hosting an event for some clients. DH managed to get his own last minute invitation to the same event (going as a client himself, of another host). I offered to give DH a lift in my work taxi, but on condition we operated on my timing seeing though I had to get there to meet my clients (DH is usually late to everything). DH was very pleased about the lift otherwise he was stuck with a long tube trip. We agreed, I thought, that we would leave the house asap but would absolutely be in the cab by 9am. I was up and ready, having also gotten DD up and ready for her day, by 8.30am. As it happened, my taxi arrived to collect me at 8.40am. DH had gotten up at 8am and proceeded to faff around the house getting himself ready in slow motion. I asked him a few times if it was possible to hurry things along a little as the cab was waiting downstairs with the meter ticking along. He just kept repeating in icy tones "we agreed we would leave at 9. We will leave at 9". So we left at 9.00am on the dot, with me standing around waiting for him in the meantime. In the cab, I expressed my frustration at his inflexibility and I said that I didn't feel it was normal to be so incredibly rigid. He basically said "if you want normal, you're with the wrong person. I'm not normal."

I didn't see DH again last night as he went out with a friend after the event and came home late. This morning, he was monosyllabic. I reminded him that he needed to call the counsellor for his separate session. DH said "there's no point going to a counsellor unless you tell me that your behaviour yesterday morning was totally unacceptable and will never be repeated again". Apparently I was relentless in my nagging and this is totally unacceptable and tantamount to treating him with contempt. After all, I know he hates being rushed in the mornings.

DH then asked me if I want custody (I know it's residence) of DD and I said absolutely. Asked him what he wants, he says he wants custody. She is 9 months old. We have a daily nanny but I do everything for DD outside of that. A family lawyer has told me that it seems clear that I'm the primary caregiver and that I could move out with her if the marriage ends. My main priority in all of this is DD's happiness and stability.

I guess I've got two questions. Does the situation with DH sound hopeless? I feel we're at the make or break point but I'd go through counselling if there was a chance of it working. But if he's saying counselling is pointless then can you make it work?? Other question: what do people do with residence and contact when it comes to small babies? How often would be reasonable for DH to see DD and how do you do this (e.g. him coming to my place)??

Moll, it doesn't need to be making him a bad guy, not that anyone on this thread is making him out to be that person.

You're just not compatible.

Sounds like he goes hot and cold. Some people like that unpredictability. Exciting. Never a dull moment. Passion.

Fine, but you're not that person. Maybe you don't want a character, but someone you can talk to after a long day at work. Someone who doesn't need entertaining, but who does the washing up, laundry etc.

Maybe he wants to be that person, but think you've given him enough chances.

Yes, he has been abusive in the past and totally agree with Dittany's assessment. You need to move forward. You don't have to hate him to move away from the relationship. Just that it's wrong for you...

Moll I think you just need to remember one thing. Your DD. And him not putting her needs first. Wanting you to practically ignore her in favour of giving him attention. Not being prepared to compromise his ideas of how he wants to live - riverside apartment etc for a more suitable house for a child.

She doesn't need that. She needs total unconditional love from both parents. She is not going to get that from him. He will say he loves her. He may even do so in his own way. But it will always be in his own way and on his own terms.

I didn;t have the perfect childhood. My Dad had a temper and blew up of lots of things. He lashed out at time. But we always knew that within his power and ability he would move heaven and earth for us. We came first.

I don't have the perfect marriage. Huge issues in fact which I won't go into here. But again. DH always, always puts DS and I first. At the cost of his career in some ways. He doesn't always find it easy to show his love but his actions prove it.

I don't think the same could ever be said of your DH.

Moll point is you DID grow balls and deal with it, just not in the way HE wanted (i.e.staying...) Flowers - as the others said get rid in whatever way feels appropriate and right and short text to him saying not appreciated and not appropriate and please do not do it again. Agree with the others no decisions need to be made at this moment, you have and can take all the time in the world. I have said it before and will say it again - you feel guilty etc because you are a NICE person and nice people do feel guilty even when they have nothing to feel guilty about!! You are doing wonderfully well, but may be you do need to make it much clearer to him that this isn't just a blip and flowers will not make it all better....

I have to say, no one says it like SGB.

Moving away from text and face to face meetings for a bit would be a good idea - what about a business like letter thanking him for raising the subject of the holiday, suggesting that it could be sold on so that some of the money can be clawed back. Or could you buy his half and go with your sister or a friend?

I think the time has come to be clear and honest with him and yourself. You don't love him so you've left and you aren't going to go back. All that is left is the practical arrangements. It may be blunt, but it is head-clearing and it helped me.

You should be so, so proud of yourself.

Moll please tell me (us) you are not even thinking of going on the holiday - it would be an insane idea (and send all the wrong messages)......Tell him NOW it isn't even up for debate..

Moll: I hate to sound a harsh and alarming note here but remember your threads about this man hitting you and claiming you started it by hitting him in your sleep? Remember his attempts to isolate you from friends and family? His horrible attitude towards his own DD? You are in the most dangerous stage of escaping from an abuser and men who are as self-absorbed as him, with such a huge sense of entitlement to obedient service from women at the expense of their own children, are men who become dangerous. This IS the sort of man who might hurt your DD to punish you.
I am really hesistating to post this but fuck it, here goes. Don't go on holiday with him. Remember that disgusting arsehole who threw his own DC off a hotel balcony? His DW had kicked him to the kerb for being an abusive scumbag as well, and that holiday was a LastChanceToForgiveMe number.

I'm glad you're seeing your counsellor today, Moll.

Really, he's got you to the point where what you focus on chiefly is him. Him and his relationship with you.

But now there is your DD in the equation, and she has to come first.

Please, please, keep seeing your counsellor to keep getting perspective.

Ask yourself how you would feel if this were your DD, and she came and told you she was going on holiday with her abusive husband she'd recently moved away from, and taking your granddaughter. You're heart would be in your throat. You'd want to vomit.

Well, again, you're someone's daughter, too.

And you're thowing nothing away! You've fled an abusive relationship.

Keep repeating: This man is abusive. This man is abusive. This man is abusive.

Why is it so hard for me to see that maybe this relationship has had some abusive elements to it, in terms of emotional/ psychological bullying? I can't even come out and say it, other than in that kind of highly qualified statement. It feels like I'm being a complete drama queen if I think of it in "abusive" terms. It's a lot easier for me to think of it in the "compatibility" terms.

I saw a counsellor again today, a stand in for my usual one who is currently on holidays (from the same team though). It was quite interesting getting her fresh perspective. One of her comments was about how the type of relationship I was describing was the type where there is a real prospect of the woman ending up in a refuge. She was very blunt and told me that the nose stuff sounded, to be frank, "mad" (I know the view on here has been that it was pretty out there) and that it sounded like H had episodes where he was quite seriously disturbed. She also commented that I keep talking about my situation, and engaging with H, as if there is some sort of rational discussion going on between two reasonable people. I know that's exactly what many of you have been saying. But when I hear her say that, and when I read posts on here about how H sounds abusive, bullying, controlling, personality disordered, I still do think "oh surely not, I'm obviously just over-exaggerating things when I recount what's happened". God it's so frustrating.

Anyway, I'm not going to go on that holiday (although I might see if there is scope to use it with my mum or something or sell it back as was suggested by someone). I have to recognise that my head has been completely messed about after a 45 minute drink and a bunch of flowers.

I think my plan will be to not engage with H again except in a counselling forum. I will probably write him an email saying that I'm not going on the holiday and that I don't want to engage with him until the counselling. I obviously need to have a think about the counselling too i.e. what is the end game supposed to be.

Moll, good to hear that you are not going on holiday with him.
What is the bit about conselling (have I missed this? ) I know he went once, are you still talking about joint conselling? If you are, my question would be why? For what purpose?

I think it is hard to think of someone as an abuser when they are highly intelligent, attractive etc, our stereotypes expect something different. Also I think we have an abuse=being thumped equation and sometimes it is hard to accept that emotional/pshycological abuse is just as damaging. Even if it is about compatibility, so what, he is clearly 'bad' for you on some level and you need to be out of that situation.

well you were with him for a long time and he must have some pleasant sides so it will not be easy to disentangle yourself from him completely with one fell swoop. I expect it will take some time to get readjusted in your mind and you have to expect to have some moments when you fall into wishful "if only..." moods. I expect the thing to do is remember that even if he has some nice sides and there were some nice moments, the basic tenor of life in that relationship was an unhealthy balance of power really, wasn't it?

I really hope this doesn't happen but like SGB (though I can't express it quite so succintly) is that after the Mr.-Nice-Guy number might well follow the I'm-not-someone-to-mess-with number. So keep your distance if you can, I would consider that the wisest move for now.

There may come a time in the future, when a bit of grass has grown over things where some type of friendly arrangement becomes possible but I don't think this is the time for it yet.

Thanks Blackduck. Well, the plan has always been that we would see our separate counsellors (and, yes, it's not like he took that seriously) and then have some four way sessions (my counsellor, his counsellor, and the two of us). I don't know what the purpose would be any more and that's one of the things I need to discuss with my counsellor. I suppose part of it is the fact that I will always have to have some kind of relationship with him by virtue of him being DD's father. I need to be able to deal with his presence in my life without going to pieces. Group counselling may not be the answer to that. I need to think about it. It's clear to me, based on how I've reacted to the events of the last few days, that I need quite a bit more individual counselling before I could look at going ahead.

I just wanted to say to be gentle with yourself, Moll. You've got time to work all this out. Take it slow - as Zippy wisely pointed, don't let him create a false sense of urgency. I know you want to get it access to your dd sorted out, but a few weeks here or there won't make a huge difference. You're doing well. It takes time. Don't rush into anything. It'll be fine.

I highly doubt your counsellor is going to think having 4-way counselling with him is a good idea.

At this point it's not a good idea to engage with him AT ALL aside from email and text.

SGB is right, he's manipulative. Because he's abusive.

It doesn't have to be complex, just a message: From now on, all communication needs to be via email or text or solicitors. I will not respond to any other form. Kind Regards, M.

END OF.

Because this man is abusive.

'One of her comments was about how the type of relationship I was describing was the type where there is a real prospect of the woman ending up in a refuge.'

PLEASE listen to her! Keep reading that post, over and over again.

The whole thing about what she said.

He's disturbed and he's trying to drag you down with him.

SGB is right.

My SIL gave her ex-partner another chance, too.

He very nearly killed her. He fractured her skull and then tried to run her over.

Yes, she wound up in a refuge.

Thanks expat. I have to keep listening and reading. God that's awful about your SIL. I know you've said she's ok now but she has survived something truly horrific.

So I agreed with the counsellor today that it was best for me to not respond to H re the flowers i.e. I should just ignore them (I gave them away) rather than sending H an email about it and risk being drawn into a dialogue. Fine, I was happy with that. H then emails this afternoon asking if he can see DD tomorrow (via our nanny rather than me). So I have to respond to that in some way, and I do (I email back "fine"). He of course then, quick as a flash, emails back "did you get my special delivery yesterday?". This is manipulation, isn't it?

Yes.

Ignore it.

'He of course then, quick as a flash, emails back "did you get my special delivery yesterday?". This is manipulation, isn't it?'

Yep.

He just used that as an opening gambit to engage you in dialogue after not getting an immediate response from sending them.

He'll continue to use your DD to do this, because she's the only hold on you he's got right now and, well, he doesn't care about her as much as he cares about himself and the control he has over you.

When he feels that slipping, he'll use anything to get it back - baby, money, fake injuries/bereavements/etc.

He'll probably get even worse! SIL's ex did.

She had to keep photos MIL took of her in hospital taped to her dressing table to keep her going.

He's such a charming and handsome fella, too.

You'd never think he strangled his partner and the mother of his two children until she was unconscious, fractured her skull and tried to run over her.

But he did. After he had his second chance and showed his true colours again and she called another end to the relationship.

OMG expat! What makes people act like that?

Moll, please don't think I'm trying to be dramatic here, but every time I see this thread bumped into Active Convos I open it with my heart in my mouth, half-expecting to see you saying that he has attacked you in some way.

I'm not joking, or exaggerating. The sense I am getting from what you say is that he's unstable and definitely unpredictable, and it seems I'm not the only one.

Please, please take care of yourself and DD. Be careful around him. I know we don't know him irl and you do, but...just be careful.

I always had that feeling about him too tbh (obviously though I don't know him). He will go through stages re the end of the relationship. Atm he has not accepted it as permanent and feels with a bit of charm, playing on the father relationship he can reel Moll back in. I suspect at some stage he will notice he cannot and then he might move on to anger. What he does with the anger we cannot predict but I suspect he will be more manipulative than physical.

Hopefully he just gets an almighty grip on himself which I suppose is also possible. It does seem to matter a lot to him how people outside the relationship perceive him which might well hold him back

It takes most people a year or two to accept the end of a relationship, doesn't it? Something like that?

Thanks cyteen. I am sure he will move on to anger at some point but I feel that ZZZen is right and that he will be more manipulative than anything else.

dittany - yes, I think that coping thing is an element. For example, the nose incident; if I'd looked at that full on then I would have concluded that H had some quite major issues going on (at least at that time) and that I should probably leave the relationship. Having then stayed in the relationship after that point, it became almost impossible to properly evaluate what was going on. I have also had a latent fear of him, which I was discussing with the counsellor today. I think it is more based in fantasy than an actual fear that he would really be violent. It is based on his coercive psychological behaviour, not his physical behaviour. He has never acted remotely violently towards me - he has never thrown stuff, broken things, pushed me or done any of the other things that I've seen on these boards.

The stereotyping thing is also true. I would previously have thought that I am not the type of person I would expect to end up in this situation. But I have. H is a nice looking, well dressed, well educated, successful professional who is regarded by most people as a "good bloke".

Accepting that your Partner is abusive - in whatever form - means accepting that you have engaged in an abusive relationship, accepting your own role in it. You think 'I am not that victim kind of person, so it can't be abusive.'

In many ways, hearing horror stories about physical abuse when you have been in an emotionally/mentally abusive relationship is actually counter-productive - you feel like a fraud.

It's good to be aware of the possibilities (of a physical backlash as he realises he is loosing control) but also keeping calm and realistic is good, too, as you move forward into a more business-like relationship. That's why I think you should give some thought to the process of sorting out contact between your STBX and your DD so he can't wrong-foot you.

Thanks mmrred, the fraud point is right.

I'm still constantly wondering whether I've just been over-exaggerating everything and really H is just a nice, misunderstood, underappreciated guy.

The "love bombing" continues. I got through flowergate. Now H is emailing me asking if he can take me and DD out for a picnic on the weekend. When H's email arrived I was in the middle of reading a diary I've been keeping of horrible things that have happened lately. I look at this every few days when I can't work out whether I've just blown things out of proportion.

I was reading this bit of the diary: "On Monday 8 June 2009, H accused me of punching him in the back of the head while he was asleep. This was not the case. He threatened to hit me if I did it again. He said ?if you hit me again I will hit you back. If you hit me again you will regret it?. I asked H if he was threatening me and he said yes. H accused me of lying when I denied having hit him. H stonewalled me after this incident and did not speak to me or make eye contact with me until Sunday 14 June. When we did speak, H told me he was hurt and offended because he believed that since the birth of our daughter I no longer saw him as my main priority. On Monday 15 June, I gave H a note I had written which set out various incidents which have occurred in the past where he has become disproportionately angry at me and/or has treated me in a distressing manner. These incidents include : him suggesting that I have plastic surgery to change my appearance; not speaking to me for 48 hours over our wedding anniversary, after I accidentally broke [piece of equipment], while I cried and begged for forgiveness; him trying to persuade me that I had broken my nose; him responding to me accidentally dropping a suitcase by deliberately shoving our daughter's car seat to the ground and asking ?how do you like it when that happens to something of yours?? I said in the note that this behaviour has made me feel controlled and powerless. After H read this note he acknowledged that he had behaved in the way described in it."

So I'm reading my diary, trying to persuade myself for the millionth time that I don't have the best marriage and I've done the right thing by leaving. And then I get an email "Dear Moll, perhaps on the weekend I could take you and DD out shopping or for a picnic in the country or something else you'd like to do?"

Aaargh!!!!! This is exhausting me.