Husband says it's over, wants custody of DD

[MollFlounders]

I would really appreciate some thoughts on my situation. I've posted a few times recently about DH. There have been issues in the past but things have been particularly rocky since I went back to FT work 3 months ago (DD is now 9 months old). DH has always been quite selfish and inflexible (previous threads on this are here and here) and this has, for me, become more and more difficult to cope with since having to juggle a demanding job and of course DD. Things are at the point where counselling is required. I found a counselling group who will see us each separately and then together in a facilitated session.

So DH and I had yet another row yesterday morning. It was very trivial. I was hosting an event for some clients. DH managed to get his own last minute invitation to the same event (going as a client himself, of another host). I offered to give DH a lift in my work taxi, but on condition we operated on my timing seeing though I had to get there to meet my clients (DH is usually late to everything). DH was very pleased about the lift otherwise he was stuck with a long tube trip. We agreed, I thought, that we would leave the house asap but would absolutely be in the cab by 9am. I was up and ready, having also gotten DD up and ready for her day, by 8.30am. As it happened, my taxi arrived to collect me at 8.40am. DH had gotten up at 8am and proceeded to faff around the house getting himself ready in slow motion. I asked him a few times if it was possible to hurry things along a little as the cab was waiting downstairs with the meter ticking along. He just kept repeating in icy tones "we agreed we would leave at 9. We will leave at 9". So we left at 9.00am on the dot, with me standing around waiting for him in the meantime. In the cab, I expressed my frustration at his inflexibility and I said that I didn't feel it was normal to be so incredibly rigid. He basically said "if you want normal, you're with the wrong person. I'm not normal."

I didn't see DH again last night as he went out with a friend after the event and came home late. This morning, he was monosyllabic. I reminded him that he needed to call the counsellor for his separate session. DH said "there's no point going to a counsellor unless you tell me that your behaviour yesterday morning was totally unacceptable and will never be repeated again". Apparently I was relentless in my nagging and this is totally unacceptable and tantamount to treating him with contempt. After all, I know he hates being rushed in the mornings.

DH then asked me if I want custody (I know it's residence) of DD and I said absolutely. Asked him what he wants, he says he wants custody. She is 9 months old. We have a daily nanny but I do everything for DD outside of that. A family lawyer has told me that it seems clear that I'm the primary caregiver and that I could move out with her if the marriage ends. My main priority in all of this is DD's happiness and stability.

I guess I've got two questions. Does the situation with DH sound hopeless? I feel we're at the make or break point but I'd go through counselling if there was a chance of it working. But if he's saying counselling is pointless then can you make it work?? Other question: what do people do with residence and contact when it comes to small babies? How often would be reasonable for DH to see DD and how do you do this (e.g. him coming to my place)??

Moll, I haven't posted before but I just got drawn into your story. Sorry, no advice as I fortunately haven't got experience of these things, but I wanted to add my voice to the ones on here that say what a great job you're doing of breaking away. Keep going, it will take time, but you will get there. You come across as incredibly strong deep down and I am certain you will be free. Good luck!

Perhaps email him back to say, politely but firmly, that you do not want any such contact at this time and asking can he please restrain himself to making contact arrangements for DD. If he can't do that, perhaps you will have to have contact only through solicitors. PITA but at least he might get the message.

Get a draft email together that you send over and over again when he tries shit like this:

In response to your message: No. If you care to see DD I will be happy to hand over via the nanny.

Moll

And that's it.

NO 'Sorry, that's not a good idea' or 'Maybe later'.

Just NO.

Why?

Because this man is abusive.

You are not over-reacting. You are not exaggerating.

Things were even worse than you thought.

Random therapists whom you've never met can see that.

About 200 random strangers on this website can see that.

This man is abusive.

Moll, it wouldn't matter if you were a story-teller on a par with JKRowling and/or he was Mother Teresa with a willy.

You don't love him.

I ditto cyteen - reply courteously that weekend contact between him and DD is welcome and that he should start thinking about a routine for this.

I like your suggestion, too, cyteen! That can even be used almost verbatim.

He needs to get it through his head that the only relationship you and he will have in the future is about your DD.

You can't be a family with him because in order to be in a family, he can't always get his way.

And that's what he wants and he's abusive in order to get it.

So game over.

Thanks everyone. skorpion, thanks for chipping in. cyteen, mmrred, expat - yes, I've emailed him to say that: no, I don't want to see you, very happy for you to see DD, we need to get that into a routine, I suggest you see her X, Y, Z, please let me know what you suggest.

So now I'm off to put the finishing touches to "Moll Flounders and the Flowers of Doom", a rip roaring story set in Norkswarts School for Determined Women in which Moll overcomes a toxic bouquet of flowers and slays all her dragons of self-doubt in the process.

I'd read it!

Moll! are you also the woman from the punch on the back while sleep thread???? Bloody hell! all the most worrying stories I have read in Mumsnet over my years here seem to belong to you.

I add my name to the list of people who worry you may get attacked when he gets to the anger phase. So... please, please, please keep a good distance from him (be it emotional, physical or whatever) and keep your DD well protected.

I remain anxious for you, Moll. Because this man has been steadily escalating towards serious physical violence for some time and I honestly think that if you accept any of his invitations to spend time together, there is a strong chance of physical violence occurring.

I tend to think the best in people and have never been anywhere near an abusive relationship - but even i think he has a "Sleeping With The Enemy" vibe about him with the things you have said.

He doesn't seem to have got at all that you have left him.

This in itself is very worrying.

I agree with ozzie. Take care, Moll. x

Thanks everyone for continuing to read and post. OrangeFish - yes, that was me.

So I emailed H yesterday saying that I didn't want to have direct contact with him until joint counselling starts. Late yesterday afternoon H then emailed me asking if we could meet for another drink after work. I said no. He then emailed to ask if he could call me and said that he promised he'd leave me alone after that. I said he could call. He was calling to try and convince me that I should be going on this 2 week holiday with him in 2 weeks.

It was a real browbeating. The gist was that the holiday was our last chance to really give things a go and he was all willing to try that, and has been trying to be very patient with me moving out etc, but if I don't go on the holiday then I'm somehow not giving things a proper go. I tried to deflect all this by saying that joint counselling was the appropriate forum for us to really get to the bottom of the issues, not a 2 week holiday. He then started being very dismissive of counselling- the old "other people won't solve our problems" line, one hour a week won't do anything, and besides he is going to be very busy with work for the rest of the year so how are we going to have the time to go etc etc. I got the impression he was setting me up for a "well I tried but you just walked away and refused to engage with me" scenario.

He started off quite nicely (saying he was distraught to think about how our relationship has been so upsetting for me) but ended up getting pretty heavy handed (verbally I mean). He initially suggested I just go on the holiday with someone else (e.g. our nanny or my mum) but when it really became clear that I was not going to go with him he said he'd rather cancel it and lose all of the money. He then asked if he could go by himself with DD (this holiday is for 2 weeks, to a long haul destination; H has seen DD once in the last 3 weeks) and I said no (major understatement). H then started saying well you've taken my daughter away, how do you justify that to yourself when you won't even let me take her on holiday. I said that I was trying very hard to facilitate him having regular contact with her, and it was with him to say how he wanted to do that. He was very sneery about that, "is that how you justify it to yourself?" etc etc

It wasn't pleasant but I know I've done the right thing. I know expat and others will be reading this thinking "just tell him it's over" in those straight words but I have to take things one step at a time. When I'm talking to him I just freeze up inside because he is just so forceful in the way he speaks - it's like someone beating a drum on your head.

It's hard, Moll, but well done on holding firm. I'm still a bit like a stoat hypnotized by a weasel (if I'm not getting my wildlife mixed up). Away from him, I can almost laugh at his demand for dd to live with him Mon-Fri, but when he's gazing straight into my eyes and I can sense the suppressed fury, it still takes a lot of effort. You can see why the rule of minimal contact is so important.

Nickname - I completely relate to that. With my family, friends, counsellor I can almost laugh at some of the things he's said and his over the top reactions to things, but when I'm actually with him or even talking to him on the phone it's like this total paralysis. I'm still in the rabbit-in-the-headlights phase. Maybe one day I'll be a stoat!

Moll, I haven't posted on this thread for ages - and then under a different name. I am so sorry you are having to put up with his bullying.

I think 'he is going to be very busy with work for the rest of the year so how are we going to have the time to go' says it all really. That's how uncommitted he really is to saving your marriage. He wants to do it HIS way on HIS terms, in a time and place convenient to him. Your needs and wishes don't come into it.

I think it is also telling that he wants to get you away on holiday - away from your family and friends and your home environment.

Stay strong - you are doing brilliantly.

Moll PLEASE do not go on the holiday! Please stand firm. You are dead right, two weeks away isn't going to change things, conselling might (but I doubt it) and if he can't/won't commit to the conselling then it is HIM that has walked away and not tried, and not you. Forget the holiday, tell him to do whatever he likes about it (but not take dd of course! not that I believe he actually WANTS to). He clearly does think a bit of being 'nice' will make you change your mind (he clearly has a very low opinion of you and a very high opinion of himself!).

Take it one step at a time, and stay strong. You have done amazing things in the last couple of months and will go on to do amazing thngs!
UnMNlike hugs {{}}

Oh wow Moll - you are doing really well you know. I can only imagine how hard it is not to capitulate when you're being harangued by someone who knows exactly which buttons to press because they know you so well.

I suspect he is well aware that the less you talk to him or have contact with him, the stronger you become.

I am slightly mystified what the joint counselling will be about - is the agenda going to be firmly around how you co-parent your DD? If so, might it be better to seek another counsellor which is completely separate from the relationship one you'd planned so that it's very clear to him that this is it, you're not going back. He seems to try and capitalise on any grey areas so the more black and white you can be the better I think. Not sure if that would be an easy thing to do but just a thought.

And yes, please do send me a CAT when you're up for a coffee or something

Yes madeup, that's a really good point: "He wants to do it HIS way on HIS terms, in a time and place convenient to him. Your needs and wishes don't come into it." That's exactly right.

Blackduck - thanks for the unMN and unBlackduck hugs. The part that still hurts me a bit is that H does think he is being nice and plays the "I'm doing my best to be loving, I sent you flowers, what more can I do?" card. I have to try and dispell my feelings of guilt that lurk around all of that.

Spice - I don't know what the joint counselling will be about either, as things stand. When I moved out, I was still thinking that perhaps things could be worked out between us and that we could use joint counselling for that. However the more distance that I put between myself now and the situation I was in, the more impossible it seems that we could ever have a future together (as a couple, I mean). Maybe the joint counselling will be about me making it clear to H that it is over and about the co-parenting. I'm not sure. I really need to discuss that with my usual counsellor when she is back from holidays. I will definitely CAT you- thank you!

Dead rright about away from things - away from what he sees as all other (bad) influences and totally under his influence again....It is all about control and he is realising that you are moving out of his sphere of power and he wants to pull you back.
I think in your heart of hearts you know where this is going and how it will end, it is easy for us to say do X, or do Y, we aren't living it. You need to do it at your pace and in your time, but you are doing amazing, I look back at the beginning of this thread and think its just stunning how far you have come.

Yes, I must say once again how truly impressive you are, Moll. Although I've never been in an abusive relationship, I have had people in my life that I've found it very hard to remain firm against so I do understand what you say about finding it hard to stay clear and firm when he starts in on you. It's like mental static isn't it? Disrupting all your thoughts.

And yet here you are, resolute, doing the right thing for YOU and your lovely girl. I can't tell you how fantastic that is. Go and look at yourself in the mirror and big yourself up You are awesome!

well done moll. he's trying to intimidate you into going back, don't let him stand your ground - took me about 15 months to say to XH 'don't try to intimidate me anymore' on the phone, it does happen you jsut need to stand firm.

he's not going to give up without a fight. but he clearly doesn't realise it's over if he thinks that being patient with you moving out - seriously the man's a controlling twat who still views you as some sort of perpetual child who will come running back to him once you've had your 5 minutes.

hold firm. xx

Moll, you need to get things sorted soon as far as getting a residence order, as the legal side needs to reflect the reality of the situation, namely that DD lives with you.

Don't want to scare you, but you need to watch your back as he has already started to use DD to get to you by suggesting he wants to take her on holiday.

You really need to discuss things with a family law solicitor asap to ensure that you're protected as he goes hot and cold very quickly.

What a statement: 'I've been very patient about you moving out...' Yeah, like he makes all the rules....

Moll, you really need to get some strong legal boundaries in place here. This man is NOT SAFE. You need to insist on supervised contact only with DD because he is a potential danger to her. He does not love his DD properly. He isn't behaving remotely like a man who loves his child and wants to do the best for her despite the couple-relationship being incompatible. He sees her as an object he can use to punish and intimidate you with.
Think about it: before you left he talked about putting her in her place, about not wanting his lifestyle to change; he wouldn't put himself out one millimetre for her benefit - yet the minute you stood up to him and threatened to leave he said he wanted full custody. Then when you did leave and you offered him opportunities to see her, he couldn't be arsed but all of a sudden he wants to take her on holiday?

Look, I have no doubt that Moll has done the right thing and I really admire her for it. Also, this guy clearly is a controlling creep and I have suggested withdrawing from face to face and phone contact along with many others.

BUT I really think saying that supervised contact is needed because he is a potential danger to their child may be a little over the top. And before you bombard me (and Moll's thread) with terrible stories of child abuse etc, Moll has nowhere on this thread suggested that her husband is a danger to their child, and has affirmed several times her determination to maintain the relationship between father and child.

I do agree that Moll needs to think about how to approach the ongoing situation with DD and how to manage it with the least stress and upset possible. Her idea to use counselling/mediation to do this, perhaps to draw up a parenting plan is excellent, and as she has shown so often, balanced and fair.

MMrred, my concern is that this man has threatened Moll and used a worrying level psychological abuse on her (check out the 'hitting while asleep' thread) this is what gives the impression the man is potentially dangerous.