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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Husband says it's over, wants custody of DD

943 replies

MollFlounders · 17/07/2009 11:12

I would really appreciate some thoughts on my situation. I've posted a few times recently about DH. There have been issues in the past but things have been particularly rocky since I went back to FT work 3 months ago (DD is now 9 months old). DH has always been quite selfish and inflexible (previous threads on this are here and here) and this has, for me, become more and more difficult to cope with since having to juggle a demanding job and of course DD. Things are at the point where counselling is required. I found a counselling group who will see us each separately and then together in a facilitated session.

So DH and I had yet another row yesterday morning. It was very trivial. I was hosting an event for some clients. DH managed to get his own last minute invitation to the same event (going as a client himself, of another host). I offered to give DH a lift in my work taxi, but on condition we operated on my timing seeing though I had to get there to meet my clients (DH is usually late to everything). DH was very pleased about the lift otherwise he was stuck with a long tube trip. We agreed, I thought, that we would leave the house asap but would absolutely be in the cab by 9am. I was up and ready, having also gotten DD up and ready for her day, by 8.30am. As it happened, my taxi arrived to collect me at 8.40am. DH had gotten up at 8am and proceeded to faff around the house getting himself ready in slow motion. I asked him a few times if it was possible to hurry things along a little as the cab was waiting downstairs with the meter ticking along. He just kept repeating in icy tones "we agreed we would leave at 9. We will leave at 9". So we left at 9.00am on the dot, with me standing around waiting for him in the meantime. In the cab, I expressed my frustration at his inflexibility and I said that I didn't feel it was normal to be so incredibly rigid. He basically said "if you want normal, you're with the wrong person. I'm not normal."

I didn't see DH again last night as he went out with a friend after the event and came home late. This morning, he was monosyllabic. I reminded him that he needed to call the counsellor for his separate session. DH said "there's no point going to a counsellor unless you tell me that your behaviour yesterday morning was totally unacceptable and will never be repeated again". Apparently I was relentless in my nagging and this is totally unacceptable and tantamount to treating him with contempt. After all, I know he hates being rushed in the mornings.

DH then asked me if I want custody (I know it's residence) of DD and I said absolutely. Asked him what he wants, he says he wants custody. She is 9 months old. We have a daily nanny but I do everything for DD outside of that. A family lawyer has told me that it seems clear that I'm the primary caregiver and that I could move out with her if the marriage ends. My main priority in all of this is DD's happiness and stability.

I guess I've got two questions. Does the situation with DH sound hopeless? I feel we're at the make or break point but I'd go through counselling if there was a chance of it working. But if he's saying counselling is pointless then can you make it work?? Other question: what do people do with residence and contact when it comes to small babies? How often would be reasonable for DH to see DD and how do you do this (e.g. him coming to my place)??

OP posts:
ahundredtimes · 25/08/2009 14:59

This thread was a journey Moll. I whooped when you moved out

From this thread, I think he must find the rejection v. difficult, and I can't help feeling that he also might be quite enjoying the 'drama' because it means the focus is on the two of you now - or rather him - rather than dd or the more boring mundane aspects of life. It's easy to pretend to be 20 again isn't it - sending flowers, texts etc etc?

I understand the desire to 'fix' and to 'mend' if you have that urge. But fwiw I think you'll feel like a mug four months down the road when he tells you he 'cant' change, this is just the way he is' and that 'dd needs to understand she isn't the centre of your house, he thought you'd discussed this, he needs time for you as a couple too, she must know her place, after all you two went through' etc etc

Non?

cheerfulvicky · 25/08/2009 15:00

Moll,
I find it interesting that you are feeling as you put it 'flat are tired' after seeing H. He seems to have sapped all the joy out of you, and taken away your enthusiasm for the exciting new chapter of your life which is just starting. Damn him! I would suggest that you don't go to any more meetings, apart from if you need to drop off DD etc - though I expect that could be done via friends of family at a pinch, so you didn't have to see him.

I feel (and I could be totally wrong here of course) that taking the wind out of your sails is PRECISELY what he intended to do. People like him work in the way of wrong-footing you, and then before you have time to regain your composure and realize he has been, is being and will always be a wanker, the suggestion is inserted. In this case, by crying and acting like "I'm nice! And I've been nice all this time only you didn't notice!" and then dropping in the manipulation: the suggestion that you need to return to him.

Did you ever see that program with Derren Brown? In it, he tricks a shopkeeper into letting him walk away with thousands of pounds worth of jewelery, by distracting him at the crucial moment of payment by asking for directions, and then offering loads of suggestive phrases like "Take it, its fine" and "that's all great". He hands the cashier a fat wedge of blank paper, the cashier checks it and nods dazedly, before bidding him a good day. Derren exits the shop with said expensive jewelery. He can't believe he pulled it off, and shakes his head with amazement and elation as he hotfoots it off round the corner sharpish. Then the shopkeeper walks into the street, rubbing his head and looking around him, his expression summed up as: WFT?!

Moll, lovely lovely smart wonderful woman, strong mother and loving, empathetic lady: please don't let that be you. Don't be the shopkeeper, wondering how the hell it ever sounded like a good idea. Don't let him throw you - keep away from him until you are so strong that you KNOW nothing he does will move your determination. It will get easier, much easier. But in the meantime you have to protect yourself, and be vigilant. The flowers are another manipulative ploy - I hope you can see that as we can.

Take care and post on here when you have the energy. Remember we're all still rooting for you and care massively about you and DD's happiness. More than H, who couldn't be bothered to give a shit for years, and we're just a faceless intenetty bunch who are still outshining him when it comes to caring. Remember you deserve better than the way he treats you.
x

MollFlounders · 25/08/2009 15:01

Thanks mumof and nickname. The flowers are making me feel slightly nauseous. You are exactly right mumof - the flowers do have a big emotional meaning. He knew he didn't have to put a card in them because I would know exactly where they had come from. I'm so glad I'm seeing the counsellor tomorrow. I just feel so exhausted suddenly, after a couple of weeks of feeling really good. Thanks for your support.

OP posts:
cheerfulvicky · 25/08/2009 15:02

Err, that'll be flat AND tired. Whoopsy.
x

mmrred · 25/08/2009 15:06

The flowers are making you sick because they ignore your feelings, the enormity of your experience and the emotional damage done. Very significant that they are the same type as he sent you in the beginning - he obviously thinks you are stupid enough to fall for it again!

Send them back - shove them in a bin-bag, anything - with a polite note saying they are innappropriate. No need for any explanation. You'll feel better.

Best of luck.

dittany · 25/08/2009 15:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OrangeFish · 25/08/2009 16:29

As for the flowers... if they are making you feel uncomfortable, remember you don't need to take them home, just pass them to anyone who may appreciate them with a very brief explanation of why you prefer them to go to somebody who could appreciate them better.

Heated · 25/08/2009 16:42

Give the flowers to an elderly neighbour to brighten their day and forget about them - if dh asks/mentions them in future, tell him the neighbour really appreciated them and they also like stem ginger.

MollFlounders · 25/08/2009 17:05

Thanks ahundredtimes and vicky for such lovely posts.

Nickname - I like the "love-bombing" phrase.

mmrred - you are 100%, no 1000%, right about why they are making me sick. In fact, thinking about it, they are a physical embodiment of how he has never acknowledged the validity of my feelings about/reaction to what has been going. I know he can't, because to do so would be to look into a black hole inside of him. But you buy someone a bunch of flowers if you did something minor - I don't know, maybe you came home a bit late and tiddly one night after being out at the pub or something. You don't use flowers to make up for the fact that you have almost destroyed a person.

dittany - I was tempted to bin them and then felt guilty because of wastage and sad because does H really think this will make it all ok? Is this really all he has to offer (which makes me feel desperately sad for both of us) and does he think this will work (how exactly does he think I function??).

I think I might take the OF/Heated suggestion and give them to my secretary.

With apologies to Sylvia Plath: these flowers

"are subtle: they seem to float, though they weigh me down
Upsetting me with their sudden tongues and their color,
A dozen red lead sinkers round my neck.

....
Before they came the air was calm enough,
Coming and going, breath by breath, without any fuss.
Then the tulips filled it up like a loud noise."

Nothing like a bit of poetry to soothe the soul.

OP posts:
MollFlounders · 25/08/2009 17:07

I should say that my secretary is not an elderly person, but is a lovely one who has helped me keep my professional act together (well, kind of together).

OP posts:
MollFlounders · 25/08/2009 17:42

Why do I feel so bad about not wanting the flowers? Why do I feel so guilty about how much it would hurt H's feelings to know I want to shove his expensive flowers in the nearest bin? I've been telling him for months that I think he is selfish and controlling. He said "no I'm just robust about what I want and controlled about what I do; you need to grow some balls and deal with it; I'm not going to change". I said I was moving out and he did nothing. He did not even ask me where I was going. And now he sends me frigging flowers and I feel bad. WTF is that about??

OP posts:
AvengingGerbil · 25/08/2009 17:48

Moll, give them to your secretary RIGHT NOW.
Don't let them hang about making you feel bad.

dittany · 25/08/2009 17:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thesouthsbelle · 25/08/2009 19:09

totally agree moll with everyone who's posted before, give the flowers to someone else of drop them into a church cemetery and lay them on a random grave.

talk to your councillor tomorrow and then tbh over the phone or in person, you need to say to him firmly, no amount of 'persuasion' or manipulation from him will ever make you go back to him. NONE. it's dead and berried. even if it's not how you feel now, you must say it to him and regain the control back within the situation, he's desperately trying to get you back under his spell (control) again, you're free now. you don't have to do/listen/put up with anything you don't want to.

mmrred · 25/08/2009 19:28

Mmm - like the grave idea, like laying a wreath and having a little bit of healthy grieving time for the good things in the relationship, and the end of that phase of your life.

Might also be a good idea to start thinking about the relationship you want to create with him as the father of your daughter. If you are prepared it's less likely he use her to get at you.

cheerfulvicky · 25/08/2009 19:31

I think you do need to get it in his head soonish that it is over, finished. No more you and him. Because until he starts coming to terms with that, you aren't seeing the real him. He reaction once he works out that nothing he does makes any difference may well be unpleasant, and it would be better to get it over with as quickly as possible. Then you can all move on.
Hope you are doing good. Do NOT feel guilty about the flowers, as others have said, it's all about him. He's ruined it, he's forced things to be this way, and now he's sad? Boo hoo. It's still all him! Sorry, but he makes me .

MollFlounders · 25/08/2009 20:35

Thanks everyone. It's almost like I feel that, just because he's decided that he wants to bring things out of the "I'm going to be cold and hateful" dynamic into the "I'm really so loving and nice" dynamic, I have to go along with it. I instantly fall into the role that I'm supposed to play. I simultaneously feel total powerlessness to resist my role and massive frustration at being jammed back into it when I've been able to breathe these last few weeks. I have to learn that actually I can say no: actually, let's keep this straightforward and simple and factual and flowers without cards do not feature in our future.

I guess it's not clear to him that it's over and I suppose I haven't really come out and said that, partly because (being honest with myself) I have harboured a small hope that I would move out and realise that actually, yes, things were great and I don't want to throw it away. Actually, I've realised that, no, things were bad and I've been really rather happy just being by myself.

Has anyone read The Drama Triangle? A friend mentioned it to me on the weekend and I've done a bit of googling. I've been wondering whether I'm a victim/rescuer with H being a persecutor/victim. It doesn't really matter about the labels, it's just that I'm looking for ways to understand how I have gotten into such a mess.

OP posts:
MollFlounders · 25/08/2009 20:36

that's a lot of "actually"s

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tribpot · 25/08/2009 20:43

Moll, I've been reading this thread but not posted before.

I think you've been conditioned to believe it's your fault and that is so hard to shake off. So once he starts pushing the right buttons, virtually impossible to believe it wasn't all in your head.

Fortunately you have this thread as a reminder of all that has passed.

To understand how you got in the mess, you need to be away from him. You can never achieve clarity whilst he is clouding your mind. Let's say possibly once you've worked through this and (separately) he has, you could maybe get back together, but at the moment it would be emotional suicide to re-engage.

Others with more experience will be along but I think what you are feeling is entirely understandable, but now is time to fight the power. You're out. Even if you're not ready to make that clear to him, thank god you're out.

MollFlounders · 25/08/2009 20:53

Thanks for posting tribpot. What you say is pretty much exactly what my counsellor has said - the bit about me needing to be out of there to attain any clarity, but it may be that once we've both worked through issues, then there is some possibility... But for now the main thing is to try to remember that I haven't just made this whole thing up and to try and break the cycle of learned behaviour. It's not easy.

OP posts:
SolidGoldBrass · 25/08/2009 21:01

Moll, I really think you need to stop engaging with this cockface. He is just playing you. (And I wonder who paid for those flowers - you did clear out your half of the bank accounts, didn't you?). Hang on in there. Because the next move, or the one after that, is going to be the one that inadvertently clears your head, because he is going to switch from Mr Boohoo I'm Nice Really to PsychoStalkerBoy. He's going to do something horrible that will remind you just what a good idea it has been to dump his toxic loser arse.
Because men like him are nowhere near as clever as they think they are, and once you have seen through them, there is no going back. He's not Derren Brown. He's just an inadequate knobber who wants to feel better about himself by mistreating you (and by bullying a little baby - saying she 'needs to learn her place' FFS).

ZippysMum · 25/08/2009 21:30

Moll,
I have been following your thread but haven't posted before.

I think you are an amazing, strong, insightful woman, and your D is a very lucky girl.

Just a thought - sometimes things feel really 'urgent', and I think he i&#65 363; trying to m ake things f&#65 349;el ?urgent?, &#6536 7;hen they rea&# 65356;ly are not.&#1228 8;What you nee&# 65348; is time wi&#6536 4;h your DD an&# 65348; you, to ?fe&#653 49;l your way? i nto your new&#12 288;life. 

Could&#12 288;you step rig ht back and &#65 351;ive yourself  6 months to&#12 288;decide what  works best f&#65 359;r you and DD ?? IF (and t&#65 352;at?s a big i&#65350 ;) you decide&#1 2288;it?s all a h&#6536 5;ge mistake 〔&# 65352;mm〕 and you&#1228 8;decide to go&# 12288;back, he?ll &#653 63;till be ther& #65349; in 6 month&#653 63;. There is N& #65327;NEED to get suckered into all this emotional 'urgency' now.

Keep strong. Keep remembering how you felt. Keep putting DD and yourself first.
We're all rooting for you.

ZippysMum · 25/08/2009 21:37

Wow - how did I do that???

What that said was (custado style)

He is trying to make it all feel very 'urgent' - like you need to make a decision to see him / justify leaving etc.

It's not 'urgent' - IF there is something there in your relationship to be 'saved' than it will still be there in 6 months.

You and DD need time to get used to your new, peaceful lives.

Can you make a decision to stay 'detached' from all his shenanigans (much like a toddler who is having a tantrum) - whatever he tries - remember, like a kid, he knows EXACTLY what buttons to press. Just make the decision that whatever happens, you and DD are staying in your new home for (6 months, a year?), until the dust settles and it is easier to see how things really are.

Thus, no urgency to take him seriously / react to his little games. Decision is already made that you are staying put for however long, and you can just watch him till he has played out all his manipulative stuff.

Sorry again about messing up the previous post....

MollFlounders · 25/08/2009 22:03

Thanks ZippysMum. I know what you mean about the urgency. Again, it's him setting the pace. When he first came back from his holiday, he rejected (a few times) my offer to come over to see DD and said that he felt it was very important that he respect my desire for space and distance. He's suddenly flipped into a different mode: meet me tonight, decide whether you're coming on this holiday, here are some flowers, go, go, go. It all comes back to me just stepping to one side and refusing to be drawn into dancing to his tune. A hard habit to break.

OP posts:
MollFlounders · 25/08/2009 22:36

SGB - I meant to say earlier that luckily we never had joint accounts. We have some joint debt (mortgage) but I took photocopies of everything before I left

OP posts: