Husband says it's over, wants custody of DD

[MollFlounders]

I would really appreciate some thoughts on my situation. I've posted a few times recently about DH. There have been issues in the past but things have been particularly rocky since I went back to FT work 3 months ago (DD is now 9 months old). DH has always been quite selfish and inflexible (previous threads on this are here and here) and this has, for me, become more and more difficult to cope with since having to juggle a demanding job and of course DD. Things are at the point where counselling is required. I found a counselling group who will see us each separately and then together in a facilitated session.

So DH and I had yet another row yesterday morning. It was very trivial. I was hosting an event for some clients. DH managed to get his own last minute invitation to the same event (going as a client himself, of another host). I offered to give DH a lift in my work taxi, but on condition we operated on my timing seeing though I had to get there to meet my clients (DH is usually late to everything). DH was very pleased about the lift otherwise he was stuck with a long tube trip. We agreed, I thought, that we would leave the house asap but would absolutely be in the cab by 9am. I was up and ready, having also gotten DD up and ready for her day, by 8.30am. As it happened, my taxi arrived to collect me at 8.40am. DH had gotten up at 8am and proceeded to faff around the house getting himself ready in slow motion. I asked him a few times if it was possible to hurry things along a little as the cab was waiting downstairs with the meter ticking along. He just kept repeating in icy tones "we agreed we would leave at 9. We will leave at 9". So we left at 9.00am on the dot, with me standing around waiting for him in the meantime. In the cab, I expressed my frustration at his inflexibility and I said that I didn't feel it was normal to be so incredibly rigid. He basically said "if you want normal, you're with the wrong person. I'm not normal."

I didn't see DH again last night as he went out with a friend after the event and came home late. This morning, he was monosyllabic. I reminded him that he needed to call the counsellor for his separate session. DH said "there's no point going to a counsellor unless you tell me that your behaviour yesterday morning was totally unacceptable and will never be repeated again". Apparently I was relentless in my nagging and this is totally unacceptable and tantamount to treating him with contempt. After all, I know he hates being rushed in the mornings.

DH then asked me if I want custody (I know it's residence) of DD and I said absolutely. Asked him what he wants, he says he wants custody. She is 9 months old. We have a daily nanny but I do everything for DD outside of that. A family lawyer has told me that it seems clear that I'm the primary caregiver and that I could move out with her if the marriage ends. My main priority in all of this is DD's happiness and stability.

I guess I've got two questions. Does the situation with DH sound hopeless? I feel we're at the make or break point but I'd go through counselling if there was a chance of it working. But if he's saying counselling is pointless then can you make it work?? Other question: what do people do with residence and contact when it comes to small babies? How often would be reasonable for DH to see DD and how do you do this (e.g. him coming to my place)??

Hi everyone, just checking in again. Things are most going well, but ups and downs as you would expect.

I'd really appreciate views on my latest exchange with H as I'm not sure what to make of it. He was due home from his week long trip late Friday night. Obviously I had moved out with DD by the time he returned, as I had told him I would do. I left a tidy flat, a full fridge, and a note telling him where DD and I were (my parents are staying with me so I felt comfortable about this, although I know people have expressed concerns; I felt it was ok). I suggested in the note that he give me a call when he was back. So by Saturday lunchtime I hadn't heard anything and I sent him a text saying I hoped he was back safely and did he want to come over during the weekend to see DD. H replied saying he wasn't sure it was a good idea for him to come over and "wasn't it best if he gave me the space and distance I needed?". I texted back saying that he was more than welcome to come over and that I would be home at X and Y times. He responded by saying "thanks, but I really don't think it's a good idea". I haven't heard anything further from him.

What do I make of this? I feel hurt that he doesn't want to see DD. Or should I assume that he does want to see her, but perhaps (understandably?) doesn't feel comfortable about seeing us in our new, separate, home? Or is he just expressing his hurt and anger towards me (e.g. does he know I will be upset if he is not showing a real interest in seeing his daughter?).

I'm not sure how to handle it. I'm now wondering whether I should have suggested a meeting in a neutral space (e.g. a cafe) rather than only giving him the option of coming to the new place. Should I suggest this now? Or do I leave the ball in his court?

(What I can see as I type this out is that this scenario has tipped me back into our "old" way of relating: he does what he wants, I get tied up in knots.)

Hi everyone, just checking in again. Things are most going well, but ups and downs as you would expect.

I'd really appreciate views on my latest exchange with H as I'm not sure what to make of it. He was due home from his week long trip late Friday night. Obviously I had moved out with DD by the time he returned, as I had told him I would do. I left a tidy flat, a full fridge, and a note telling him where DD and I were (my parents are staying with me so I felt comfortable about this, although I know people have expressed concerns; I think it's ok). I suggested in the note that he give me a call when he was back. So by Saturday lunch time I hadn't heard anything and I sent him a text saying I hoped he was back safely and did he want to come over during the weekend to see DD. H replied saying he wasn't sure it was a good idea for him to come over and "wasn't it best if he gave me the space and distance I needed?". I texted back saying that he was more than welcome to come over and that I would be home at X and Y times. He responded by saying "thanks, but I really don't think it's a good idea". I haven't heard anything further from him.

What do I make of this? I feel hurt that he doesn't want to see DD. Or should I assume that he does want to see her, but perhaps (understandably?) doesn't feel comfortable about seeing us in our new, separate, home? Or is he just expressing his hurt and anger towards me (e.g. does he know I will be upset if he is not showing a real interest in seeing his daughter?).

I'm not sure how to handle it. I'm now wondering whether I should have suggested a meeting in a neutral space (e.g. a cafe) rather than only giving him the option of coming to the new place. Should I suggest this now? Or do I leave the ball in his court?

(What I can see as I type this is that this scenario has tipped me back into our "old" way of relating: he does what he wants, I get tied up in knots.)

Oh, I just wanted to say to everyone based in C. London who has expressed interest in meeting up for a coffee (most recently Horton and spicemonster) - yes, I would definitely be interested, now that some of the dust is settling. I guess CAT is the best way of doing that? I haven't used it before

Oops sorry, not sure how I managed that double post. On the plus side, it's only half as long as it looks...... Sorry about that.

Glad you can see that you're still in the old patterns with him. I would definitely say the ball is in his court. Sounds to me like yes, he would like to hurt you by showing no interest in your dd. Frankly, if he disappears from both your lives, so much the better (do you want him to be playing the "nose" mind-games with her down the line?)

You're doing the right thing by leaving the door open for him if he wants to be involved, but it's his decision whether to go through that door.

hiya, moll! i've not been in your situation, but a lot of people on this thread have so bumping for you.

and thanks for updating!

so glad you and your DD are safe.

Thanks Nickname and expat for wading through that double-strength post. I do feel positive about having at least identified the patterns now; not so easy to avoid them, but that takes time....

Hmmm - sounds like he's trying to retake control. You've taken a lot of the power back by going - he's now going to ignore you until you make moves back towards him.

This isn't about his feelings to your DD (although he is of course being unfair to her by choosing this pattern of behaviour). It's about trying to put you in your place.

You've twice said he should get in touch. Now leave it up to him.

I do feel positive about having at least identified the patterns now; not so easy to avoid them, but that takes time....

One step at a time, petal. You're doing brilliantly!

This is in keeping with a lot of his previous behaviour where indulging in mind games and being narcissistic are more important to him that any thought of what your DD might need (that thing where he got upset about you rushing to hug her, for example). If I were you I'd keep a diary of these things - times when you offered a visit and he refused and so on - because if he later decides to apply for greater access/custody, it will come in useful.

Well done from me as well - stay strong.

But this is just what he usually does, isn't it? You mysteriously 'offend'; he sulks in righteous, lofty silence for weeks while you try to think how to put it right.

Nah, don't bother with him.

Moll, I was struck by a post you wrote on July 26th in which you said "He disagrees with [cuddling and showing unconditional love to DD] and believes her "expectations should be managed" from now. He also commented that it was lucky that the way I treat DD hadn't damaged the way he feels about DD, which I did not like at all but did not react to."

I have to admit that when I saw this at the time I thought 'uh oh, he's gearing up to reject the child and making out it's Moll's fault'. Three weeks later.....I mean, everything else that's ever gone wrong in his life is your fault, so why not the fact he doesn't love his DD enough? Grrrrrrr!

This man is a complete sociopath. You are so right to remove your lovely child from such a damaging individual. You just have to remember that you are behaving normally and honourably, and he is doing the exact opposite.

'If I were you I'd keep a diary of these things - times when you offered a visit and he refused and so on - because if he later decides to apply for greater access/custody, it will come in useful.'

That is a really good idea!

Log every time you rang him or texted him about visiting.

And his response.

The dates and times of both the attempt to contact and the dates and times of his responses as well as content.

Leave the ball in his court, too.

It's still about playing games with you, Moll. Either that or he's genuinely emotionless. Either way, you're better off away from him.

Don't waste time and energy trying to understand him and his behaviour. You need a circuit breaker for when you find yourself dwelling on it, a phrase or an image that you force yourself to concentrate on instead. In a way you need to train yourself out of thinking about him.

true to character he's playing games.

definitely log EVERYTHING. let him get in contact next, and i think it is a good idea to meet on neutral ground.

remember, this is his pattern for getting you to question your behaviour and come running back with an apology.

can I just add agreement to the games playing and agreement to a diary/log. And good luck.

Moll, congratulations on getting you and your DD out. You've done it now and you'll look back on this time and realise how momentous it has been.

I agree with the others - don't waste time wondering why, don't invite him to your place and keep a diary. Recognising the patterns also makes them lose their power - you'll start recognising a lot more now.

I get what you're saying - as you know I got away from my XP recently and I've been a bit taken aback by his (lack of) reaction. It does make you wonder why you stayed and tried for so long when they don't give a toss, especially about DD.

So keep it factual, get the legal things moving and just focus on your and DD's life. Getting a new social life and catching up with old friends will remind you what a nice person you are.

Yes, I'd agree with what everyone else has said. Glad you're doing reasonably well, apart from the sadly predicable behaviour on his part.

I used to know a woman rather like your XH. If you hadn't 'engaged' with her in a while and were trying to pull away for your own mental health, she would do one of a number of things to get you to resume playing games with her. One of her favourites was contacting you with some wildly inaccurate information about you or - anything really. Maddening to the point that you'd be itching to correct her, and would usually fall back into the trap once again. After many years of this (she was a family friend) my mum and I cracked what was happening; it was like a perpetual game of tennis, and we were enabling it to continue ad infinitum by lobbing the ball back her way each time. We always, always fell for each hook, each bit of manipulation.

It's only when the scales fall from your eyes that you can begin the process of disengaging from these people. I feel that this process is beginning for you now, Moll, with regards to your XH. This is wonderful! But it takes time and concerted effort as you train yourself out of the addiction to responding to these people. I kept repeating to myself "Don't bat the ball back, don't bat the ball back" until I finally mastered enough self control to pull away. It takes a bit of practice as you are retraining yourself, but as with all things it gets easier with time. And you get better and faster at seeing through their scheming.

Remember also - the specifics of this situation don't matter to him, it's messing with your head that is his priority. But if he's prepared to not see his daughter because he'd rather play mind games, well - she's better off without him isn't she?
Wishing you loads of strength, and remember to log important stuff! Take good care of you

Emotional blackmail, I would say. Perhaps it is not a bad thing that he doesn't show up to see his daughter. It would give you the space you so need at the moment to continue building your new routines.

As for providing a neutral place rather than see her at home... Well, well, I'm inclined to say don't create a rod for your own back by doing the work for him. If he wants a neutral place let him request it, but leave behind the old patterns where he sulked and you danced to his music. It is my impression he is doing this to hurt you and cause you reconsider your decision.

Now, children need to have their fathers around for as much as possible but not if they behave in this way. If it helps, at this age she won't miss her father for long, he would be happy to see him, but if he doesn't show up I would say she won't notice. (Deduction I took from watching DS growing up with a constantly absent dad away on business or holidays). At that age, he hardly remembered who he was when he returned even when he used to play a lot with him.

Yes, you're supposed to feel guilty and worried and run about madly trying to 'make up for it'. As others have said, keep a log of what happens but don't exert yourself. He is grown man and it is his responsibility to play nicely or fuck off.

Hi Moll (finally back having done Big Chill, London and disneyland Paris - ahhhhhhhhhh) Glad to hear all is going well.
His last exchange is a bit odd but I agree with the others that he wants you to dance to his tune, so all the 'I'm giving you the space you want blah blah...' is just a way of pushing it all on to you and making you the 'villian' of the piece again.....Don't fall for it. It also sounds to me like he isn't actually taking you seriously and thinks this is just Moll having a moment, and she'll be back...
Stay strong and let him to the running...

I completely agree with everyone else, this is your old pattern for the two of you. You're trying to figure out how to please him. That's not your job anymore (not that it ever was) so don't bother. You've been completely reasonable. if and when he wants to see dd he'll need to let you know. In the meantime, you've done your bit. Be wary of wanting to see him to get a fix of him - he won't have been all bad so some of you might miss some of him. Be careful about making out you want dd to see him when actually it's you. I'm not saying that's what's going on here, just to be aware....

I also completely agree with the others about keeping a diary. Don't put emotional stuff in there, think about it as a record you would be happy to show a court. So have the leaving date there, the date you sent the text, what you said, what he said. You may only get to the bottom of the first page if he doesn't engage with you but at the moment you can't tell how important it might be in the future so I would start keeping it now and then you won't have to remember anything later.

Glad to hear you are doing ok. Up days and down days. Yep, you'll have plenty of those but I hope it soon feels like more up than down...

Hi Moll, I've followed your story for ages but never had anything to post until now. I am so so so so glad that you and your DD are away from this man, and so pleased that your obvious intelligence and humanity is helping you get yourself free of him by recognising what is happening between you.

Definitely agree that this is game-playing from him along the previously set lines of your relationship, and most definitely agree that you should log everything. When dealing with such an intelligent manipulator as your ex, it pays to exercise every caution you can - he's already proven himself to have a long memory and a willingness to use it against you, don't trust for a second that he won't do so again in future.

You sound so loving and strong Be proud that your DD will grow up knowing she is loved and listened to.

Oh, and definitely do meet up with spicemonster if you can, she's awesome

how are you Moll?

Thanks everyone. You're all right about the old patterns. In the end, I did nothing and H ended up emailing me asking if our nanny could take DD to a neutral place during the day. That happened and it seemed to go ok. However, today H has emailed me and said that he thinks that seeing DD is going to be very painful for him and he's afraid seeing her regularly may do both him and her more harm than good. I'm just trying not to react to that at all, either in terms of how I feel and in terms of any response to him, and will discuss it with my counsellor. I think I'm ok for now. I am logging everything in a diary, that's really good advice.

Well done Moll. He's trying really hard to push your buttons, isn't he? The bit about seeing DD being too painful and being associated with harm is purely designed to make you feel as guilty as possible.

Good friends of mine have very recently separated, the husband just moved out of the house this week. They are both finding the issue of who spends time with the children when and where very painful, but neither of them would dream of not seeing their children, or of suggesting it would harm their children to see them.

He will probably do and say quite a few things that are just to the side of 'normal', close enough to it that at first they seem reasonable, but they're not and they're only designed to hurt you. The more you do what you're doing, which is keep a record and don't react, the more likely he is to initially escalate it, and then give up when it doesn't work.

Well done you, you really are an amazing woman, Moll! Think of the life you're capable of building for you and your daughter without the inane restrictions and the energy wasted combating your DH's irrational moods and demands.