DH and the housework - again. I'm so very bored of this.

[TAFKAtheUrbanDryad]

I was going to post this in AIBU, but then I realised that I don't actually care if I am BU or not, and I don't think i am BU. I think I'm tired and stressed and fed up of being used as a fucking doormat.

Housework has been a constant flash point for dh and i since we've been living together. When our dc came along it only got worse because I had less time to do the cleaning/houseworky stuff because of looking after the dc. I think what it boils down to is that he has a much lower standard of "clean" than I do, and doesn't see mess that needs tidying.

So, you know, fine. I can live with doing most of the housework, especially given the fact that he has a very demanding job and I am on mat leave at the moment. But the washing up is a constant wind up for me and it feels like he's doing it on purpose, and it feels like such a deliberate lack of respect on his part.

Our evening routine used to be: dinner at 7 (when he gets home from work), bathtime for dc, I put dd to bed, he puts ds to bed. I would do washing up while he did ds' bedtime (dd goes down v easily). But ds would get so stressed out, screaming for me at bedtime, it was very upsetting for all of us. So we adjusted it to me putting both the kids to bed while he does the washing up.

All well and good you think. But no. First of all, the washing up is rarely done by the time I get downstairs after putting dc to bed. Blood pressure rise number 1. Secondly, when he does do it, he does it with such an air of resignation I feel like ramming the dishcloth up his arse and doing it myself. Thirdly, he does it so bloody poorly I have to do half of it again, and then he doesn't wipe the sides, clean the top of the cooker or put away the clean, dry dishes from the draining board so we get very creative stacking which means that things fall down and break.

So, I wrote a checklist for him, because I know that he's very tired by the time he comes to do the washing up, and might forget to do stuff which seems obvious to me. It has stuff like wiping the sides, the table, under ds' high chair on, and putting the washing up bowl away. Yet every fucking morning I come downstairs to find a bowl of stagnant greasy water in the sink and the (barely clean) dishes teetering dangerously on the draining board.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some sort of Monica-esque clean freak. I have a fairly low standard of house-hygiene and think that germs are good for kids. But leaving stagnant water and dirty, wet dishcloths around the place - especially in this hot weather - is just vile and horrible and I AM FUCKING SICK. OF. IT.

It's not even really about the washing up anymore. It's about the fact that he seems to think it's ok to treat me as his unpaid skivvy, his unpaid childcare, his laundrymaid. Don't even get me started on the leaving pants on the bedroom floor thing. It's a basic lack of respect for me, his wife, and the mother of his children. And I have talked and talked and talked to him about it, and all I get back from him is how miserable he is in his job. How unhappy he is. How tired he is. NEWSFLASH - I'm tired, I'm stressed, I'm unhappy, at the moment I feel so shit about myself I can barely look at myself in the mirror without wanting to slash my arms open (deep, unresolved self-harm ishoos). And, yes, he probably is depressed, before any of you say it. And I have suggested countless times that he sees the GP to either sort some counselling out, or get some AD's as a stopgap measure. But he won't.

I love him very much, and when things are good (when he's off work) they're great. He is a good father (when he's not at work) and does stuff around the house (when he's not at work) - it's just that obviously 85% of the time he is at work, and I hate that he can just use that fact as an excuse for being shit.

Sorry it's such a long rant. Coming down this morning after a night of 2 screaming unhappy children (1 teething, 1 just a little shit sometimes - dh decamped to ds' room) to a pile of dirty dishes and a bowlful of greasy water was pretty much the last straw. The only reason I didn't pack my bags and pile me and the dc out of there is cause I love our house and I can't bear to leave it behind. I desperately want my marriage to work, I just don't know how.

I don't think he's changed though has he? He was already this way you were just unaware because you hadn't lived together?

I think when you get this cross with him, it's impossible to sort out till you've calmed down. And I can feel the resentment through your posts. Are you pissed off at being stuck at home because it sounds like you are a bit?

You resent him, you're cross with him, the more cross you get, the more he pulls away, the more he pulls away and doesn't help, the more you're getting cross and resenting him.

You say you want your marriage to work but do you think you love him?

You said earlier on that it's his work that is making him feel this way. I know what it's like having a shite job and god, it really affects your whole life (because it's such a large part of life).

If you really want it to work, I'd plan a night where you get a takeaway and eat on paper plates . Avoid the washing up issue. Put the kids to bed TOGETHER. Have a cuddle afterwards and then have a chat. Cry and tell him how you feel. Tell him how close you are to giving up on everything.

If you want it to work, you need to start being honest now about how it is making you feel.

I don't think it sounds like the situation is unsalvageable but you both sound thoroughly miserable . I think you need to start thinking about making yourself happy (without the dh issues).

Whatever happens in the future, whether you sort things out with dh or you don't, I think you need to start thinking about your life and your future now and keeping yourself sane. As dh is at work all day, I assume you can give yourself some time to think about it.

I also think some men just don't get this not contributing to the housework = lack of respect. I know dh could not believe I could get so stressed about something he wasn't doing (some minor washing issue!) but it was also because I was unhappy in other ways and it was coming out as a housework issue iyswim.

I do think your general state of mind contributes to this. When I'm happy and everything is going swimmingly, the sort of houseworks issues are minor irritations. When I'm tired and miserable, they become huge bones of contention.

Not that I'm saying you're wrong but I think you need to sit down and analyse (if you can) your own situation and get to the bottom of what is making you so miserable (if it is indeed dh or the situation you find yourself in, or what could happen in your life to make you happy again).

and I think you're right Urban, he sounds properly depressed to me.

But because of that, and his unwillingness to get treatment, this isn't going to resolve itself very quickly.

Will he read self help books? Or has he got a good friend/sibling you could chat to (or has someone else figured out that he could be depressed)? Because hearing it from someone else might cement the thought in his mind and help persuade him to get help?

He's still in bed because I cannot be bothered to go up there and wake him up. He must know what time it is, ds woke him when he went up for his nap (nearly 2 hours ago) and he sounded pretty awake then. I find it's easier if I don't have expectations - then I'm not disappointed when he lets me down.

I don't know if I love him or not. I certainly don't like him very much - but then I don't like myself very much either right now. I don't feel anything for him at the moment. Not angry any more, not upset, not resentful, just...nothing. Which is not exactly healthy, is it?

I've told him how I feel so many times. I've cried, I've shouted, I've practically begged. None of it makes any difference. I'm getting to the stage where I think that the only thing that will make a difference is leaving - whether that will give him the kick up the arse he needs to change.

Another option is waiting till he finds a new job. Someone will take him sooner or later, surely? And see what he's like when he's not in this horrible depressive state he's in right now. On the other hand, I think that if he can't put himself and his problems to one side for the sake of his family then it's not worth it.

I keep thinking back to how he was when he had some time off work over Easter. Things were hard because dd was still tiny, but he was helpful and attentive and a great dad. Surely I owe it to my dc to fight for that, or at least not give up so easily?

Oh My Goodness, the more you write the more I wonder what you're getting out of this marriage.

Perhaps you need to insist on relate so he realised what a huge deal it is the way he treats you and the family unit.

Why on earth is he in bed at 12.45pm?????

Perhaps you should go to bed for a whole weekend and apart from bf do nothing else, that would give him an idea of what a SAHM actually does!

fox - he's an only child and doesn't have that many friends. The friends he does have are as self-obsessed and depressed as he is! I've tried to encourage him to go out with my friend's dh, as I think that they could be good friends - they have a lot in common and my friend's dh is a lovely bloke - but I feel like his mum, arranging play dates! And what with work (on both sides) and family obviously there isn't much time where they can get together.

He's looked into life coaching but it's £80 a pop and he is so unenthusiastic I don't feel like it would be a very good investment. I would happily pay that and more if I thought he would give it a real go but I'm willing to bet my children's trust funds that he wouldn't.

That sounds like I'm being very negative on him - I'm not, just realistic.

I keep on at him to see the GP but he won't. He says she'll just sign him off work, which isn't an option, but I think a course of AD's could help him - and I am the world's most anti-med person as a rule! I think the AD's could help as a stop gap rather than a permanent solution, but he won't even countenance it.

housework can be a major trigger in this house but dh has always pulled his weight as otherwise he wouldn't be here tbh

if he is still in bed at this time he needs a kick up the arse, go and DEMAND that the fcuker gets up

if you work all week then you spend the weeked with your family, not lolling about in bed

I think my last lie in was till 8am

sleeping in ends when they cut the cord

(he does sound depressed tbh but also a n0b )

Buy a dishwasher.

well I think you owe it to yourself to try and sort yourself out - have you got a counsellor you see about your self harm issues? or a doctor?

thing is, he is a grown man and should not need his wife to get him out of bed

if he is depressed, tehn at some point he has to take ownership , stop finding excuses and get sorted

the job issue has been going on for , what, a year?

he is dragging you down with him

i know depression is an illness, but he won't get help and you cannot carry the whole family

he sounds utterly defeatist and lethargic.

irony is you say when he was off work, things were so much better.. maybe he should be signed off and get sorted.. surely he is entitled to sick pay?

when do you go back to work?

oh urban, I could have guessed he was an only child.

We have actually spoken to each other before about our respective dhs (both only children).

When I moved in with dh (surprise pregnancy so we also didn't live together beforehand), I nearly passed out when I saw what he was like at home.

I come from a big family where you HAD to be considerate just because there were loads of you around the whole time. Dh just does not have that inate sense of consideration that I do. It can make him look selfish but the longer I've known him, the more I realise he isn't trying to be selfish, the consideration just isn't automatic with him iyswim (it's a personality type too).

For example, it took years before he'd stop throwing out the bits of the paper I liked (as he sorts all the papers out into sections and keeps the ones he wants to read, the rest gets thrown in the recycling) and it used to drive me insane. I felt like he had no consideration for me and in a way he didn't but it wasn't an automatic disrespecting thing! He'd also cut his toenails and leave them in the bath before I went in and loads of things that I wouldn't do (automatically) because when I was little, there were 5 children running around and you just didn't!

Both of us went through a phase last year when we were both thoroughly miserable and I completely lost my rag with him over his inability to put the washing away.

Looking back on it now, dh admits that he was under terrible stress at work and thinks he was mildly depressed and he just could not and did not get his head around home life. Things are a lot better now but we both had to sit down and talk honestly about how stress affects us both.

I think the problem with your dh is that he hasn't got to that point yet.

I would go away if I was you. I think this is what made dh think - but also, a number of our friends marriages broke down and I think this was also a catalyst. We started realising how much we actually needed each other, because we did but we had lost sight of that because we were both wallowing in our own misery iyswim.

I do think a break would do you good, is there someone you could go and stay with (with dc)?

I get the impression you are trying to deal with your issues and your dh is happy to wallow in his?

when my dh used to leave stuff on the floor, after I'd told him not to and that I would lose anything left there, I used to pick said item up and throw it in the bin. After about three weeks it stopped completely and he never did it again.

CarGirl - whenever I have a lie-in somehow ds always manages to get upstairs and bounce on me till I get up. I've managed to sleep until 10am before now (when I was up the whole night with dd) but I've always had dd with me. Dh very rarely gets up with both kids and lets me sleep in.

Lulu - He is entitled to sick pay, but only statutory, which we could not live on, not with me only getting SMP at the moment too. Also, if he gets signed off sick there is a real chance that he will be fired - which I know is illegal and all, but his employers don't seem to give a shit about that. They've already threatened him with the sack because of the time he took off when dd was born - which was annual leave. I'm thinking of going back to work when dd is 12 months, it depends on how well she takes to solids.

Well, he is up now. Thanked me for "letting" him sleep in.

is he looking for a new job? sounds like things are not secure anyway.

can you take a mortgage holiday for a month or two to give him a chance to take some time off work and for you both to work through things?

AFAIK he's looking for a new job, yes. He's had a few interviews, but nothing's come up for a while. Obviously in this climate people are cutting down on recruitment.

fox - I don't see a counsellor at the moment. There was an option for me to have CBT at the beginning of last year when I was going seriously bugfuck, but I had nowhere to put ds, and they won't let you do it with children. I've been looking at Relate but it's very expensive - I might give them a call tomorrow (or Tuesday more likely as it's the bf-ing picnic tomorrow!) and see what they say.

The thing that really makes me laugh is that MIL whinges on and on about FIL and how inconsiderate he is, and how she blames his mother (dh's grandmother) for making him the way he is, and here I am whingeing on about dh, and how useless he is and how it's MIL's fault for a) Never allowing him to learn how to be a proper adult and b) Packing him off to boarding school at the earliest available opportunity.

I'm fairly sure that in 20 years time, my future DIL will be whingeing about me, and how I never taught ds to pick up after himself!

it all sounds a big unholy mess

if you take the housework out of the equation, do you love him?

do you want to spend teh next 50 + years with him?

do you want to spend the next 6 months with him?

it sounds like if you wait for him to get a handle on things, you'll be waiting for ever

If I take the housework, and his job, and the stress of family life away I'm sure we could have a long and happy relationship.

But life isn't like that, is it? And I don't want a partner who can only be any good in fair weather. I need someone who can support me and be supported by me throughout life.

well , quite.

you sign up for life and all that it throws at you

there will always be challenges and facing them as a team is always going to be better.

at the moment, you are nursing two little ones, doing the house stuff and trying to support somoene who is not helping himself.

but he complains about feeling excluded, but lies in bed for half the day

and won't get help for his depression

am not surprised you are cracking under the strain.

"If I take the housework, and his job, and the stress of family life away I'm sure we could have a long and happy relationship.

But life isn't like that, is it? And I don't want a partner who can only be any good in fair weather. I need someone who can support me and be supported by me throughout life."

That's a very defeatist position.

There are things you can do to ease the burdens of life. "Modern conveniences" like dishwashers, washing machines, tumble dryers, fridge-freezers, vacuum cleaners, cars etc can make a massive difference to your relationship with your partner. So can a cleaner/some childcare and all sorts of other domestic services that are out there to be bought, providing you have the cash.

What would you do to ease the burden of life tomorrow if your fairy godmother gave you the cash?

anna, why are you excusing her DH of having to get off his arse???

yes, you can get as many labour saving devices as money can buy, but it will still be the OP having to load and unload the diswasher etc and do the day to day running of the house

it lets the DH off the hook

he needs to step up

and from teh sounds of it the OP can't afford a cleaner etc , so why the hell should her H get to lay in bed all day and not do anything?

He's depressed. She needs to get the household running in such a way that their family functions. Telling him to buck up is not a solution.

but the OP is exhausted.

the DH won;t address his issues

there are two little ones here

how much can one person carry?

this is a long term issue in their relationship and is bringing htem to breaking point

they both have a responsibility to themselves and their marriage

She won't get anywhere by nagging her already depressed DH.

She can easily implement a practical solution to relieve the whole family of washing up (and other housework too) by throwing a little money in that direction.

Be pragmatic