DH and the housework - again. I'm so very bored of this.

[TAFKAtheUrbanDryad]

I was going to post this in AIBU, but then I realised that I don't actually care if I am BU or not, and I don't think i am BU. I think I'm tired and stressed and fed up of being used as a fucking doormat.

Housework has been a constant flash point for dh and i since we've been living together. When our dc came along it only got worse because I had less time to do the cleaning/houseworky stuff because of looking after the dc. I think what it boils down to is that he has a much lower standard of "clean" than I do, and doesn't see mess that needs tidying.

So, you know, fine. I can live with doing most of the housework, especially given the fact that he has a very demanding job and I am on mat leave at the moment. But the washing up is a constant wind up for me and it feels like he's doing it on purpose, and it feels like such a deliberate lack of respect on his part.

Our evening routine used to be: dinner at 7 (when he gets home from work), bathtime for dc, I put dd to bed, he puts ds to bed. I would do washing up while he did ds' bedtime (dd goes down v easily). But ds would get so stressed out, screaming for me at bedtime, it was very upsetting for all of us. So we adjusted it to me putting both the kids to bed while he does the washing up.

All well and good you think. But no. First of all, the washing up is rarely done by the time I get downstairs after putting dc to bed. Blood pressure rise number 1. Secondly, when he does do it, he does it with such an air of resignation I feel like ramming the dishcloth up his arse and doing it myself. Thirdly, he does it so bloody poorly I have to do half of it again, and then he doesn't wipe the sides, clean the top of the cooker or put away the clean, dry dishes from the draining board so we get very creative stacking which means that things fall down and break.

So, I wrote a checklist for him, because I know that he's very tired by the time he comes to do the washing up, and might forget to do stuff which seems obvious to me. It has stuff like wiping the sides, the table, under ds' high chair on, and putting the washing up bowl away. Yet every fucking morning I come downstairs to find a bowl of stagnant greasy water in the sink and the (barely clean) dishes teetering dangerously on the draining board.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some sort of Monica-esque clean freak. I have a fairly low standard of house-hygiene and think that germs are good for kids. But leaving stagnant water and dirty, wet dishcloths around the place - especially in this hot weather - is just vile and horrible and I AM FUCKING SICK. OF. IT.

It's not even really about the washing up anymore. It's about the fact that he seems to think it's ok to treat me as his unpaid skivvy, his unpaid childcare, his laundrymaid. Don't even get me started on the leaving pants on the bedroom floor thing. It's a basic lack of respect for me, his wife, and the mother of his children. And I have talked and talked and talked to him about it, and all I get back from him is how miserable he is in his job. How unhappy he is. How tired he is. NEWSFLASH - I'm tired, I'm stressed, I'm unhappy, at the moment I feel so shit about myself I can barely look at myself in the mirror without wanting to slash my arms open (deep, unresolved self-harm ishoos). And, yes, he probably is depressed, before any of you say it. And I have suggested countless times that he sees the GP to either sort some counselling out, or get some AD's as a stopgap measure. But he won't.

I love him very much, and when things are good (when he's off work) they're great. He is a good father (when he's not at work) and does stuff around the house (when he's not at work) - it's just that obviously 85% of the time he is at work, and I hate that he can just use that fact as an excuse for being shit.

Sorry it's such a long rant. Coming down this morning after a night of 2 screaming unhappy children (1 teething, 1 just a little shit sometimes - dh decamped to ds' room) to a pile of dirty dishes and a bowlful of greasy water was pretty much the last straw. The only reason I didn't pack my bags and pile me and the dc out of there is cause I love our house and I can't bear to leave it behind. I desperately want my marriage to work, I just don't know how.

UD, I agree with everyone who says that even if he is depressed, there's no farking excuse for being this particular kind of selfish.

I've had my issues with depression, and it did not give me a washing-up deficiency.

I don't normally agree with the passive aggressive training stuff when it's suggested, but in this case I want to bloody well SHAKE him, so I'd try it - the giving him the dirty dishes, the not washing stuff that's not in the basket, everything.

FWIW, I'm naturally a slattern, but had to clean my act up (literally ) a few months ago. Combination of putting our flat on the market so it needed to be viewing-ready at all times, and (much tidier) DH doing things like making piles of dirty socks and leaving them somewhere prominent.

So with training and motivation, it can be done.

Yes, I breastfed both mine and it is a tie. I just find that having a plan to improve my own happiness increases my confidence, then I nag less and things generally improve.

Having said that I think I have also resigned myself to DH's crapness and accepted it, though I have also learnt to appreciate his good points at the same time...

How are things going, UD?

Hello, poor you, you sound pretty down. I recognise a lot of your feelings, and felt similarly up to a few months ago (and I only have one dc!) but things are much better now that my dd's 15 mo! I think I had mild PND for the first 9 months or so of dd's life, but it was only when I realised it and dealt with it that things got better. (Not saying you have btw)

My ex husband was like your dp. I found the only way to stop becoming a horrible nag was not to cook for him, leave all his clothes in the laundry basket until he would have to go to work naked, leave the bins full (yuck), etc. And I did this cheerfully because it was no longer my problem, and I had "sorted it" in my head, seeing as he didn't want to stick to any sort of agreement. And voila, I was no longer a horrible fishwife. It did sort of work as he realised all that I had been doing for him, and ended up not to bad around the house. But then we got divorced as he'd been shagging rings around him the whole time without me knowing!

My (v faithful afaik) dp does not use enough washing up liquid for my liking, which was nothing to do with "doing it badly on purpose", it's just the way he did the dishes. I got a dishwasher and it's FANTASTIC!! Get yours installed pronto.

Can you afford a cleaner? Whether your dh does his share or not, IMO having a cleaner is a fantastic help.

It's horrible when you feel fat and can't go to the gym or anything because you've got a small baby to look after. I'm only starting to lose a bit of my baby weight now in the last few weeks. Don't worry about that for now, go easy on yourself, you can concentrate on getting back into your clothes when your baby's older. Get your hair cut, a wax or manicure or whatever you like, if yo can afford it), put nice body cream on and make-up if you wear it.

Even if you can't leave the house for long, you should leave the kids with your dh even just for an hour a couple of times a week and do something you enjoy. The poster who said you needed to get out to the gym or do a hobby was right, and you shouldn't use the excuse that you need loads of time because you don't. Leave the dcs with dh and go for a half hour cycle or walk, or read in the bath with a cup of tea and some chocolate. Could a friend come and meet you in a nearby cafe/restaurant?

Good luck and look after yourself.

Sorry I meant your dh not dp.

Things are at stalemate at the moment.

Yesterday he asked if he could just talk, and not have me interrupt him. He then went on to say that he finds it very hard when he gets in from work because he's been at work all day and then he's expected to interact with the kids, and then expected to help with bathtime, and then expected to amuse ds for an hour while i put dd to bed and then I expect him to do the washing up.

How I did not stab him is beyond me.

What the hell does he think I do all day? And I don't have an hour commute at the each end of the day, in a nice air conditioned car, with the radio on to wind down!

If this is his thought process I just don't know where to go with that. I mean, he acts like I'm asking so much of him, when actually he's only doing what most people do, and actually considerably less than most.

My friend thinks that he is emotionally immature and I am inclined to agree with her. But I cannot make him grow up, and I shouldn't have to. I don't know what would even work, to make him grow up! Perhaps losing everything is the wake up call he needs?

Has he even tried doing what you do all day? Does he get any holidays? If so, tell him to be a SAHD for a day or two and get everything done that you get done, including what you have to do in the evening. Tell him you will do his bits ie the washing up, spending an hour with DS etc and he will do your "bits" for the day. He needs to realise that being at home with two DC is a lot of hard work.

I think that, having had him ask you if he could talk and you just listen, that it's now your turn to talk and for him to just listen. Then you should tell him what you've just told us - how it makes you feel, how tired you are, etc etc. And then you should ask him "well as we both obviously have a problem with this what are we going to do about it?

And you should both work out a course of action that will keep you both happy.

He sounds depressed - you have admitted that you might have 'a bit' of PND. I think you should agree to both go to the GP (separately if you prefer) and get some help with this.

Make it a real priority to get your dishwasher installed. Stop putting it off - unless you secretly enjoy having this little battle with your dh?

But above all, make time for you to do something for you. Go for a run or a swim or even just a walk once your DH is home and all is dealt with by way of the evening chores.

I agree with muffle - my dp works long hours and has been known to complain like your dh about coming home to do a pile of stuff with the kids and in the house after "a hard day's work" (a lot of which is spent standing around chatting)

BUT that has all stopped since I started getting a few freelance jobs again, and he has had to look after dd all day Sunday and Monday and Tuesday mornings on his own while I sit working at the computer (like I am now ). He has a new-found respect for all that I do and does much more around the house now and complains less.

Can't you express some milk and bugger off for a day? (Go on, you know you can!!)

muffle - the problem with that is there is no way dh could know what I do all day because he can't breastfeed! I don't resent the breastfeeding, I don't particularly enjoy it, but it's something that needs to be done so I'll do it.

BIWI - you're right about the dishwasher. We've got a plumber coming to look at our toilet ceiling so I'll get them to look at the washing machine situation as well.

It's just all so exhausting.

UD.

I hear you.

I have to agree that perhaps you & the kids going for few days might be the wake up call he needs.

You aren't expecting him to move mountains My dh also works long hours, (as do I) then when he comes home, he picks the kids up at c/minders, prepares & cooks dinner.. we eat after I come home, then I generally sort the kids out whilst he loads the d/washer. He doesn't usually wipe the table or sweep under it, but I do that anyway so it's no big deal.

I might do a load of washing, but when it's been dried (or ironed) I leave it in a bundle on the utility room & dh puts it away...

Does he not realised that you do the job of 'mummy' 24/7 without a lunch break every day? You don't get to talk to adults when you feel like it, you don't get to walk down a street with both your arms the one length!

FWIW I think what he did at the boating place was purely self pleasing selfishness... and not something I could easily forgive him for... but you talked about it & that's it over, however, he needs to see that you're not his slave

What happened before dc? When you worked full time too? Did you still have the bulk of the housework to do?

See, I don't mind doing the housework, DH cooks, but it has taken me 11 years to get like this...and tbh after I started to work full time it took a meltdown & a huge long post on here (which I showed to my dh) for him to see that he was being a wanker.

Good Luck....don't put up with his shit anymore, you're his flippin' wife, not a cleaner!

Connie - it's good to hear that people have come through the other side of this. Gives me hope!

We didn't live together before I was pg, when I was freelancing and only working 2-3 days a week anyway. So because I was at home essentially doing nothing for the rest of the time (except being pregnant, oh and organising our wedding! ) it seemed logical for me to do most of the housework.

Then when ds came along, I was at home most of the time, and ds was a pretty undemanding baby, so I still did most of the housework.

And then I went back to work when ds was 1, but only 3 days a week, so I still did the lion's share.

We've got into this rut where I do the housework because I've always done it, but now that I have ds and dd I'm finding it more and more hard to do it all, and why the feck should I anyway?

He's come home from work early because me and ds are both suffering with a d&v bug, and I've asked him to watch the dc while I go have a bath, but apparently he needs to wait till after 6, so he can finish work. So I suppose I've got him back an hour early, but I need to keep the dc away from him till 6. Feels like he can never give without taking away, but because it's work and not him making unreasonable demands I can't complain.

UD - I think that the "what do you think I do all day?" argument is a mis-step from you. I think that it naturally puts those that WOH on the defensive because it sounds as if you are attacking them for not appreciating you (although that is clearly an issue but lets not start that now, eh?? ) My point is that this is about him, not him in relation to you.

I see threads around, a lot of "why won't my husband do more?" threads, and sometimes I do think, "give him a break, he's been at work all day and now you want him to spend a couple of hours cleaning and cooking and working most of the evening." However, your depiction of your husbands talk where he got to spill his guts made me mad!

"he's been at work all day and then he's expected to interact with the kids, and then expected to help with bathtime, and then expected to amuse ds for an hour while i put dd to bed and then I expect him to do the washing up."

If you take out the children responsibilities, what he is annoyed about is that you ask him to do the washing up. Well boo fucking hoo! He's can't argue about child related chores because they are his responsibility, they are his children too and even if he works 80 hours a week he should still be expected (and want to, what sort of dick complains about being with their child?) to entertain and bath his children.

I do not think that doing the washing up every day is too much to ask in terms of household chores. Really it isn't. I do just about everything in the house, DH does the washing up and he would never complain. EVER.

My concise response to your "poor" husband with regard to his moan about how put upon he is after hard day at work is: Grow up. It is hard work being an adult, going to work, having children. This is it, accept it and deal with it and stop fucking whinging about it. Other people deal with more than you with much more grace than you do. Get on with your life and stop moaning about it, or fuck off and be useless elsewhere.

good god what a rant, sorry

Can I just add how much respect I have for you that you haven't actually stabbed him, Im just at how appalling his attitude is!

How about this weekend, you doing what he does during the week and him doing what you do ... but you stay in the home to feed the kids.

Be there for the meal times but do NOT do the work - he has to do it.... take time to read, bath in peace - whatever... go out between dd's meals...

a compromise to the "leave him to it to learn" ?

He needs to do something; he's being pathetic - a rocket up his arse would be prefereable.... God, I wish I could shake him!

See, I hate this solution, it's brought out quite a lot on mumsnet, the "leave him to do your work for a day/week/month" solution. It's not about that. He doesn't need to do what she does, he just needs to do what he does and should do, but well and without being a whinging fucker.

I always feel that anyone who actually does the whole going away thing and leaving your OH just wants someone to say "yes, you win, you do have it the hardest" but it's not about that.

For generations men could behave like this because women had no material choice but to stay with them. Women fought for the resources to be able to lead lives of non-slavery. But such lives for women won't become the norm unless, very sadly, and with much horrible heartbreak unfortunately, we stop making a fetish of staying together, and making it demonstrably clear that women can and will walk.

I do not mean you have to leave him for anything to change. I just mean it has to be a real possibility in a significant proportion of these cases.

btw I am so conflicted about PND. Is it always an illness on the part of a person to feel like shit when they have no sleep and no down time and no respect and no autonomy? I am not saying PND is not real. I am just saying I hate it when my DP suggests I have it when I am pissed off for good reason and my sense of humour seems to have gone missing.

I heart vezzle.

And all of you, actually.

vezzle I love everything you say

and I'm so with you on the PND thing... have been through exactly the same thought process myself and still can't work it out.

Not sure if this helps but I keep myself sane by thinking that DH doesn't purposely use me as a doormat, he just doesn't see the dirt etc.

Re the swapping roles for a day, I don't think it's to get the partner to say "OK you have it worse" - but to get him to understand that it is a full-time, demanding and exhausting job and that whoever is at home is just as likely to feel just as knackered at the end of the day as whoever has been out doing a paid job. A lot of men really do seem to think "but you have been at home all day" = "not really doing much and having a nice rest". They only really can understand by doing it.

i've read your intial OP a few times and something stands out to me... you mention that you chnaged your bedtime routine as your DS was upset that you weren't putting him to bed.

i think it was a mistake to back down on this issue.

it sends a strong message to your husband that he is useless. It separates you as a family, with him downstairs doing the dishes while you are the only one able to get the kids peacefully to bed.

it sounds like your husband needs to take responsibility for himself as a partner and as a father but ultimately you can't make that come about... you can give him the opportunity to rise to the challenge though.

a bold move is needed here to break this cycle- i think you should change the routine to him putting BOTH children to bed (or just DS if you're breastfeeding). work through your son's issues with this TOGETHER. stand united and soon your confidence in your husband's ability will rub off on your son. it shouldn't take long for him to accept this new routine. it will bring him closer to his son and ultimately boost his confidence.

and get that fucking dishwasher plumbed in forgodsake.