DH and the housework - again. I'm so very bored of this.

[TAFKAtheUrbanDryad]

I was going to post this in AIBU, but then I realised that I don't actually care if I am BU or not, and I don't think i am BU. I think I'm tired and stressed and fed up of being used as a fucking doormat.

Housework has been a constant flash point for dh and i since we've been living together. When our dc came along it only got worse because I had less time to do the cleaning/houseworky stuff because of looking after the dc. I think what it boils down to is that he has a much lower standard of "clean" than I do, and doesn't see mess that needs tidying.

So, you know, fine. I can live with doing most of the housework, especially given the fact that he has a very demanding job and I am on mat leave at the moment. But the washing up is a constant wind up for me and it feels like he's doing it on purpose, and it feels like such a deliberate lack of respect on his part.

Our evening routine used to be: dinner at 7 (when he gets home from work), bathtime for dc, I put dd to bed, he puts ds to bed. I would do washing up while he did ds' bedtime (dd goes down v easily). But ds would get so stressed out, screaming for me at bedtime, it was very upsetting for all of us. So we adjusted it to me putting both the kids to bed while he does the washing up.

All well and good you think. But no. First of all, the washing up is rarely done by the time I get downstairs after putting dc to bed. Blood pressure rise number 1. Secondly, when he does do it, he does it with such an air of resignation I feel like ramming the dishcloth up his arse and doing it myself. Thirdly, he does it so bloody poorly I have to do half of it again, and then he doesn't wipe the sides, clean the top of the cooker or put away the clean, dry dishes from the draining board so we get very creative stacking which means that things fall down and break.

So, I wrote a checklist for him, because I know that he's very tired by the time he comes to do the washing up, and might forget to do stuff which seems obvious to me. It has stuff like wiping the sides, the table, under ds' high chair on, and putting the washing up bowl away. Yet every fucking morning I come downstairs to find a bowl of stagnant greasy water in the sink and the (barely clean) dishes teetering dangerously on the draining board.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some sort of Monica-esque clean freak. I have a fairly low standard of house-hygiene and think that germs are good for kids. But leaving stagnant water and dirty, wet dishcloths around the place - especially in this hot weather - is just vile and horrible and I AM FUCKING SICK. OF. IT.

It's not even really about the washing up anymore. It's about the fact that he seems to think it's ok to treat me as his unpaid skivvy, his unpaid childcare, his laundrymaid. Don't even get me started on the leaving pants on the bedroom floor thing. It's a basic lack of respect for me, his wife, and the mother of his children. And I have talked and talked and talked to him about it, and all I get back from him is how miserable he is in his job. How unhappy he is. How tired he is. NEWSFLASH - I'm tired, I'm stressed, I'm unhappy, at the moment I feel so shit about myself I can barely look at myself in the mirror without wanting to slash my arms open (deep, unresolved self-harm ishoos). And, yes, he probably is depressed, before any of you say it. And I have suggested countless times that he sees the GP to either sort some counselling out, or get some AD's as a stopgap measure. But he won't.

I love him very much, and when things are good (when he's off work) they're great. He is a good father (when he's not at work) and does stuff around the house (when he's not at work) - it's just that obviously 85% of the time he is at work, and I hate that he can just use that fact as an excuse for being shit.

Sorry it's such a long rant. Coming down this morning after a night of 2 screaming unhappy children (1 teething, 1 just a little shit sometimes - dh decamped to ds' room) to a pile of dirty dishes and a bowlful of greasy water was pretty much the last straw. The only reason I didn't pack my bags and pile me and the dc out of there is cause I love our house and I can't bear to leave it behind. I desperately want my marriage to work, I just don't know how.

blinks - the reason we changed the bedtime routine was because dh was having to physically restrain ds from coming to see me. We tried this for a month, with ds making himself sick with screaming and everyone being miserable and upset. Dh and ds were spending no quality time together, and they were starting to resent each other - in fact, i think this may be what caused their relationship to start to break down (which dh blames on bf-ing, and i think is far more to do with the arrival of dd than anything else).

The whole point of doing it this way round, was so that dh and ds could spend an hour or so in between bathtime and ds' bedtime, while I was putting dd to bed, together and have some quality time. I wouldn't even give a fuck if the dishes weren't done in this time - the hour while I'm putting dd to bed is solely for dh and ds to play, chat, cuddle, read, whatever.

But instead of spending time with ds, dh usually puts a DVD on and then retreats behind his laptop for an hour, leaving ds to trash the room. I suppose this does have the advantage that by the time I come downstairs to take him up to bed he's so thoroughly fed up he comes quietly, but if I'm honest I'd rather he got to see his father every day.

The result of this is that ds will not go to his dad for cuddles, I am the main source of comfort, because I'm the one who pays him all the attention. Which is very wearing for me, if I'm bluntly honest. And it's very upsetting for me, because I can see the relationship between ds and dh breaking down and I want them to be close, but I can't force ds to want to cuddle his dad. And why should the 2 year old make the first move, when the 35 year old is unable to?

As for a cleaner, yes, this might be an option. At the moment my mum comes once a week to help me get on top of the washing and housework, but obviously it's not going to be an option forever, and it's a trek for her (she doesn't drive) so when she calls time on that - and I may call time on it when she gets back off holiday - I will look into getting a cleaner. However, a cleaner won't solve the problem, because the problem isn't really the housework.

that's really sad poor ds

your h needs a fucking boot up his jacksey... would you lay the ultimate line, or just keep plodding on, hoping for him to change? I wonder if he won't, as long as his entire "family man" existence isn't under threat?

"he's been at work all day and then he's expected to interact with the kids, and then expected to help with bathtime, and then expected to amuse ds for an hour while i put dd to bed and then I expect him to do the washing up."

Well, um, yeah.

Here is the story of my dad, the child of poor immigrants from Mexico.

He grew up very, very poor. So poor that, when he was 18, he was conscripted into the Army, as were most poor boys like him who could not afford university, then the bastion for the rich in the US in 1954.

This man married when he was 28, a younger woman.

And decided, I'd like a family. I'd better do what I can to support them.

When I was born, when he was almost 35, he was working full-time for Royal Dutch Shell as a chemist and finishing his master's degree in petro engineering at night after work.

Yep!

Full-time work, full-time degree course.

But hey, no whingeing about his loss of 'me' time.

Mama took care of us, because 4 days/week, after work, Papa had to go to university straight after work.

Come Friday night, however, Papa took over.

He fed us two girls, bathed us, put us to bed.

Saturday, all day, he took us out with him on his own. All day.

Sat. night, Sunday and Sun. night (he did the bath and bedtimes those nights, too) was time to study and do homework and have time with Mama.

No complaints.

'I don't want my daughters to grow into women and I don't know who the hell they are.'

What's so fucking big about being a FATHER to the kids you chose to bring into this world?!

If it's such a damn chore, and yes, the work that goes with them, why do it?

He put it best: if you want an easy life, don't have kids.

OH UD this sounds so utterly miserable for you. I suppose giving him a good kick in the cock isn;t really an option?
Actually I think the best advice further up the thread was from whoever said, say to him that we have a problem, how are we going to deal with it? If he can afford to go sailing, he can afford to pay for a cleaner, for one thing - would he go for that?

what was their (DH and DS) relationship like before the bedtime routine went awry?

and what does he blame on breastfeeding? i don't understand what you mean...

blinks - when i got pg with dd i had to force wean ds off the breast when i was about 6 months (he was coming up for 2) and dh had to take over with him. We still co-slept with him at that point, and dh complained then that he couldn't sleep because ds was cuddled up to him so close!

When dd was born and my milk came back in, ds asked to nurse again. I was still mourning the loss of our bf-ing relationship so I said ok, and he started again. Since he started nursing, he's been very much mummy-oriented, and I suppose dh feels like he doesn't really get a look in. With hindsight, I wouldn't have weaned him during pregnancy, I would've just gritted my teeth and dealt with it, I think that weaning him was the biggest mistake I could have made, because it made it into something he "couldn't" have IYSWIM.

I am really hating bf-ing at the moment, and that's not something I can admit lightly. I am really on the verge of going down to Tesco, buying a tub of formula and shoving it down dd's neck. I won't, because I firmly believe in bf-ing, and I want it to work, and I would feel enormously guilty if dd got less than ds who has never had formula. (Note: this is not a slight on anyone who ff, it's just not something I want to do, so please don't anyone say, "You shouldn't feel guilty for giving dd formula," because I would, and that's my own hang-up. Sorry)

SGB - it's not the money for the cleaner that's the issue. Unless a cleaner's going to come in and do the washing up every night! I can do the meat and veg of the housework, and believe me I do the bare minimum to stop the house descending into squalor, I just hate coming down in the morning to a pile of dirty dishes I have to wash up, and by the time I've finished putting the dc to bed I'm so exhausted I can't face doing them then. The only other option is that I do them while dh does bathtime, but for some reason dh has a massive objection to this Possibly because he doesn't feel like he can cope with both of them in the bath together?

I do feel like we made some progress last night though, I asked if we could talk about the evening thing, as I said I didn't think it was working particularly well. We agreed that while I'm putting dd to bed, dh doesn't go on his laptop or have the telly on. It is now his and ds' time, where they can read (preferable) or play or whatever. Hopefully this will help to strengthen their relationship and take the pressure off me somewhat.

However, ds had a massive strop in the night (not sure about what) so I have been up with him since half 4. I physically couldn't nurse him back to sleep as I am so touched out at the moment. I don't feel like I'm doing a very good job at anything right now. I think I may be coming down with something, me and ds have both had d&v bug, and now I'm achey and feverish and sore throat. Hoping it's not swine flu! I may make an appointment with my GP today, so I can talk about that, and also perhaps talk about some family therapy.

I think you both sound very unhappy and tired actually. Your dh needs to get his arse in gear and help and I think the no TV or screen time in the evening is agreat idea. Your dh is using those to retreat from having to relate to any of you.

I also think you really need to think about your boundaries. I really didn't enjoy breastfeeding much (I knoe it is heinous to say so on mn) but if ds hadn't wanted to stop breastfeeding at 2 years old I'd have definitely stopped and I wouldn't have started again - it would have been too much.

Is it in any way possible to talk to your dh about how as a family you can start weaning ds?

I think the therapy would be a very good idea - I hope you aren't ill

Sorry I've just realised you said you didn't want to wan your ds - ignore me

I do think the fmily therapy is a good idea though

UD, I really get where you're coming from as I have similar issues with my dh.

Going back to work has helped slightly because I now have more 'reason' to demand equality in the house.

We can also now afford a cleaner, which is great, but it hasn't solved the general tidying/endless washing/unstacking dishwasher (oh the irony ) that is part of everyday drudge.

The issue is simply that your dh has no idea how hard it is to look after children all day. Unless you've been a SAHP you have absolutely NO IDEA how physically and emotionally draining it is.

Buying a dishwasher/hiring a cleaner/throwing money at the problem is not going to solve the issue here. What your dh needs is to fully understand the effects his behaviour has on you and he needs to respect your job as being just as (if not more) important than his. If you figure out a way to do this, let me know!

He's clearly so mired down in his own misery he can't imagine that anyone else (you) should have needs and require help. He clearly thinks he has the shittier deal so he has no inclination to help you, he thinks if anyone needs a break it's him not you.

It does get easier as they get older. If that helps.

I have a "friend" (DP of my good friend really) who seems to operate on the basis that all relationships exist so that he can materially support the other person and they can emotionally support him. (I mean even his friendships, such as they are.) It is very interesting to see him with his partner and his children. I wonder if your husband is similar - not necessarily deliberately or consciously, but it seems he is not remotely tuned into your needs, nor emotionally available to his son, but acutely conscious that by bringing home a salary he is doing his "duty". Perhaps he feels that by sitting with his son in the evenings, being physically present, he is doing what was required and is just not really conscious that relationships don't ever work like that, still less with children to whom you have even greater responsibility.

Some men think that the social and domestic and emotional stuff comes so naturally to women they have no idea that it is just as draining to us as it would be to them, if they ever did any of it. Being a mother is to be so socially and emotionally available, I think it is the hardest thing about it - always to turn to the demand with a smile that looks real (and in a sense is real, because you do adore them), always to be open and "on", never to be able to say "just leave me alone for an hour please". Because you work so hard at it, to make it look effortless to the children, it sometimes seems to the man as if it comes naturally to you in a way that it never would to him - actually inside you are screaming for everyone to go away and 3 hours to sleep in a big chair with a really boring book and nobody talking to you. I am still thinking of my friend's DP here - he just thinks "Oh I am not good at this stuff, I will just leave it to M" without realising that no one is just good at this stuff. (Similarly he invites people to very lavish meals because he feels socially inadequate so thinks this is a suitable "deal" when making or having friends.)

In that sense I do think the "leave him to do it" challenge does have a point, if he would understand that it is just the same for you as it is for him - just as hard.

Blinks is spot on about the dangers of just accepting "oh it doesn't work when he does it". I see the difficulty though with the bf issue.

Can you really not wean your son? With your husband's full support to make sure he is feeling completely emotionally supported in every other way?

to me it sounds like he has no confidence in his abilities to look after the children on his own. perhaps he feels it's better to say he doesn't want to do it than do it and fail.

i don't think you need to wean DS if you dor he don't want to. i breastfed my DC1 until she was 2.5 and am still feeding DC2 at 16months so you have an ally in me! i do think, though that changes could be made to bring eventual harmony.

could you express or introduce a night-time sippy cup of milk that DH could give to him while he has story time? that transformed our life as we were having a similar situation with DC1. We made a big song and dance about this new 'magic milk' and it became DH's job to do her bedtime.

we share the bath time with me bringing up D1 shortly after he's bathed D2, i then feed and put down D2, DH does D1 and the dishes. often he does the dishes at 1am and sometimes there are some left in the morning and we have fought about that in the past. generally though i just leave them for him to do later.

just read through my post and my grammar is fecking awful. hope you get Le Jist.

Hiya - update from Chez Urban.

Well things have evened out, as they usually do after a big blow out. Dh is spending more time with ds in the evenings and is reading to him and playing rather than just abandoning him in front of the TV. The housework thing is still a bone of contention though, and I just don't have the energy to fight it. He is just so fucking unaware - like yesterday when I was on the phone to my brother and he walked through the kitchen with an empty bread bag, scattering the crumbs on the floor. I pointed them out to him, and asked him to sweep them up, and got shrugged at.

I'm at the stage now where I just don't care. I don't really feel anything for him - something which seems to genuinely perplex him - and I can't see us ever getting this relationship back on track. We had a good day out yesterday, and we can still have fun together as a family, but I think as a couple me and dh don't really have much of a future.

He is just so completely self-absorbed, so immature, that until he grows up and opens his eyes and changes considerably as a person there is just no way forward for us. At the same time, I don't really know what the next step is - do we split up, does one of us move out, do we sell the house? It all seems like so much effort and I don't have the energy to fight anymore. Perhaps easier to just put up with it and wait till the babies are older.

Urban

I had a friend to visit on Thursday & she's in the same situation.

She had had a row with her DH & came here... they have three little ones, 6, 4 & 3.

She is a SAHM & she recently did some courses & had an award ceremony. He booked the day off work then refused to go & also refused to look after the children, she had to get a babysitter at an hours notice whilst he went off & had the day to himself.

Anyway, the upshot is that she has all the housework to do, he does nothing. He works, comes home & heads out again... he is supposedly a 'family man' yet he wants to spend no time with his family
She said, as you have said, they work together well as a team, when he co-operates. She said they make good parents but can't be together. She's making plans to leave as she said all he brings to their relationship is tension & hatred from her

They've been together since she was 15 so it's a tough decision, but she's had enough.

'I don't really know what the next step is - do we split up, does one of us move out, do we sell the house? It all seems like so much effort and I don't have the energy to fight anymore. Perhaps easier to just put up with it and wait till the babies are older.'

I always look at it this way: if I died today, right now, would I have wanted to die that unhappy?

expat - if i die, it won't matter, will it?

this has been a perennial problem and seems no closer to being resolved

you are worn out and miserable and stressed

as the babies get older some pressures will ease, but there will be new ones..

and you feel like you are doing this alone

if having 2 children and buying a house and getting married has not encouraged DH to step up , then i don;t see what else would

This is the thing lulu - and you and expat know how long this has been going on!

It's just absurd.

And I don't want to leave, and upset the dc (well, ds, really - i don't think dd would give 2 shits if she had free access to my boobs at all times!) but I don't think anything else is going to give him the wake up call he needs.

He is still in bed and I feel like going upstairs and kicking him in the nuts.

so you don;t want to leave and upset the DCS, but what about you"?

do you still love him?

at the moment you just sound furious

can you move in with a friend or family member for a week or so or ask him to move out, give you both some space and then maybe you will both have some clarity on how to move forward

at the end of the day, there is no benefit to anyone by staying in a marriage where one of you is utterly miserable and feels worn down all the time

he is still in bed at 12.45 on a sunday?

how? how has that happened????

how have you not gone up ther and dragged his sorry ass out of bed?????????

go and get the lazy fucker UP!!!!!!!!!!

he is still in bed at 12.45 on a sunday?

how? how has that happened????

how have you not gone up ther and dragged his sorry ass out of bed?????????

go and get the lazy fucker UP!!!!!!!!!!

TMMJ, i was just about to post the same thing when MN crashed.

unless he is really ill, there is no reason to be in bed until lunchtime.

leaving you to sort out two little ones and the house etc

wasting half a day of family time in bed is just stupid and counterproductive at a time when you feel unsupported and from your other thread, he feels left out

UD-It would appear that you have MY husband. I am also trying to work out whether it is even worth bothering anymore.
Wish I had some advice for you, but I can only offer solidarity.