DH 'play-fighting', but we're both half his size...

[EllieorOllie]

I was going to name-change for this but I can't be bothered to faff around...

Basically, I am becoming more and more uncomfortable about my relationship with DH. Everyone sees us as this miracle couple, because we decided to keep our baby and build our relationship after getting pregnant after a very very short time together. 3 and a half years, a wedding and another baby later, things are really getting rocky. Or at least, they are as far as i'm concerned. There are lots of little niggles, and even a few more deep-seated doubts about our compatibility. He doesn't seem to see any of it, so maybe i'm just over-analysing (wouldn't be the first time!!)

But what i have the biggest problem with, and what is making me start to think about leaving, is one particular aspect of his treatment of our DD and also me, to a certain extent. He is a rugby player and very into 'ultimate fighting' - a big, muscly guy with knowledge of martial arts holds and chokes but no self-control. He frequently plays extremely rough and puts me and DD into wrestling holds and stuff. He is even exceptionally rough when he 'tickles'. I am always covered in bruises from what he sees as playfights and DD is constantly crying when he plays with her, to the point where i think she's getting quite scared of him. He's also very mean to her, 'joking' with her to the point where, as an over-sensitive toddler, she inevitably starts to cry.

I've tried to talk to him about it but he just rubbishes what i say, or says he's really sorry and then carries on behaving the same way!

Don't get me wrong, i'm not an abused spouse or anything, and he doesn't do this stuff in anger. However, i don't think i can go on being physically hurt and dominated, and i'm very worried about the effect it's having on his relationship with DD. I'm also concerned that she'll start to mimic his behaviour.

Any thoughts, similar experiences or advice gratefully appreciated...

Be careful Ellie. He may say he will stop. He may even weep a bit about what a bad man he is. But he will hurt one of you again at least once, to see what you do, and whether you mean your ultimatum. Then if you do show signs of leaving he will weep and moan and promise - and carry right on abusing you, the 'oh I'm so awful I didn't mean it' will just be a new trick in his repertoire. You have to be very resolute about the fact that the next time he lays a finger on either of you, he's out and you will call the police to remove him if necessary. Because really he thinks that you and DD don't matter very much, that you might moan and nag him a bit but he can safely ignore what you say because you're only a 'woman' and after all he is entitled to do what he wants with you because he is a man.

I completely understand what you mean Solid, and a part of me thinks that you might be right, even though i don't want you to be. I lurk a lot on the relationships board, possibly hoping to get some insight, and I know your advice is very sound. The reason i don't want you to be right is that i have a 3 month old baby and my 3 year old DD and I can't bear the thought of breaking up our family. I worry that it's my hormones making me get things out of perspective (i had PND after my DD was born), and most of the time he's nice (if somewhat apathetic) and i don't want to spoil everything. And yes, i know you're going to tell me that he is the one who is spoiling everything, that my DCs are the reason why i should be getting out, and that all abusers are nice when they're not being abusive. But i'm not going to kick him out today without giving him the opportunity to make it ok. And believe me, I will be resolute. I think the fact that my in-laws are with me on this is going to help me stick to my guns as well. They will absolutely be checking that nothing untoward is happening.

ActingNormal, i personally don't think it's at all ok. In fact (and this might add a little more insight to my situation) my DH's older brother treated him very very badly when he was kid. I have watched their family videos and i am disgusted by the bullying and by the fact that their father condoned it by not intervening. I don't have siblings so i don't know first-hand how sibling relationships should work, but i think certain behaviours are unacceptable no matter who is doing it to who.

WRT sibling fighting, most siblings who fight are a bit more evenly matched in size than an adult man and his toddler dd.

We weren't evenly matched. He was male, I was female, he was 4 years older, I was very small for my age, he was considered to be 'stocky' in his age group.

Starlight i am totally with you on being wary of the in-laws. At the moment it's great having them on-side and by working in his best interests they are also working in mine. However, i know that this could change if things take a turn for the worse and i decide to go/kick him out. I suspect that they would encourage him to try for custody although i am fairly sure that in the circumstances he wouldn't get it, despite my previous PND. Somebody tell me i'm right about that??!
DH back soon, getting a bit nervous about the chat... I am armed with the number for our local relate

"I do accept that it is abuse, but i feel that i need to give him the opportunity to change his behaviour. Perhaps in the past i have not been decisive enough in the way i deal with him. 'I'm not happy', 'you hurt me', 'i think our relationship might not have a future' is not the same as 'one week to change or you're gone".

Why give him a week?. You accept his treatment of you both is abusive and yet you want to give him another week. What's a week going to achieve?.

He has had plenty of opportunity to change his behaviour and he has chosen to continue. He thinks at heart he has and is doing nothing wrong to you both. These men do not change.

Counselling (presumably you're talking about anger management or relationship counselling) is inadviseable for domestic abusers as it can actually help them further justify the abuse in their own mind and they can become more devious. You are only responsible for your own well being and your childrens' well being ultimately. He does not figure.

Most abusers do have periods of being "nice" but their true nature soon re-emerges. You're in an abuse cycle and you're still not fully seeing the realities of living with an abuser. Its not just about you any more, your children are involved too but they have no say or choice.

Abuse is about power and control. If they were horrid the whole time no woman would want to go near them, let alone have a relationship with them. Solid is right here, he will hurt you both again and test your ultimatum to its limit. Problem with ultimatums is that you can only do it once and you must see it through. Not seeing it through will give him further power against you.

BTW as well you are not breaking up this family. IT IS ALREADY BROKEN, he is responsible ultimately for breaking up this family unit.

You're in a victim mindset here. Please seek support from Womens Aid.

Relate counselling WILL NOT WORK for abusive men. Infact I think I am correct in saying that they will not counsel abusers.

If you go to Relate you need to go on your own and certainly NOT with him in attendance. He will likely run rings around that counsellor and make his behaviour out to be your fault (which further reinforces your incorrect assumption that its your "fault" in the first place).

There is no way he would attain full custody of those children given his history of violent behaviour shown towards you both. He would likely be barred from having any contact with these children at all.

PND is really not that unusual - it's not a reason for a court to give a father sole custody. I agree that Relate isn't appropriate - in a healthy relationship it's kind of a given that you don't do deliberately do strangle holds on your wife and child - Relate type counselling tends to be - you do X, and I'll do Y - i.e. compromise on both sides - but with violence like this - there should be zero tolerance. I hope you do manage to talk to Women's Aid soon.

I understand your pov Attila but what i'm saying is that i think the 'abuse' is not intended and is mostly driven by his immaturity and occasional stupidity. I will talk to relate and find out whether they consider his behaviour to be abuse and what they would advise. I'll also talk to women's aid as so many people have suggested it, although it horrifies me to think that people think this warrants such a step. However, there is no way that my DH will run rings around a counseller, he's not bright or indeed devious enough. I know that sounds horrid and disrespectful but as i said before i also think that subconsciously his tendency towards physical dominance might be to do with him feeling inferior to me in other ways, primarily intellectually.

He does not hit anyone else but you and your daughter does he?. Is he hitting anyone in the street or his employer?. No he is not is he?. He has some control over his actions, he just chooses to hit both you and your daughter.

He may well be immature as you describe but immaturity is no excuse for such behaviour. Do not downplay this. He will drag you all down with him.

I think it is highly likely that Relate will see this to be an abusive relationship and will not counsel you further.

This is also deeply set and learnt behaviour on his part.

he's not a ten year old boy - he's an adult - so should have sufficient maturity not to be beating you up because you are brighter than he is. i have a few friends with DHs who are talented in the martial arts - and they never behave like this with their families.

good luck Ellie x

Good luck Ellie, sorry been lurking and didn't have time to post before.

I hope you've had your talk with DH and that you are ok.

I also wanted to add (and sorry, this might not be that helpful at this particular moment but I think it needs to be said) but, whatever happens you will need to be even more careful with his interactions with DS as he gets older - men playfighting with boys tends to be rougher than with girls even in a 'normal' situation.

Ellie, your coming across as an intelligent woman, but seem a little too afraid to rock the boat for various reasons, although from your recent posts it seems like things are looking up.

I think you really need to step up and protect your children. At your dd's age, 'playing' that is leaving her crying, withdrawn, marked etc, is no different from her being slapped and punched. Certainly, she isnt going to rationalise it in her brain as any different. As another poster has said, if reported to social services, he would most certainly, even from the stuff you've put on here, be seen as a risk to your dd, and you would be seen as a risk, due to failure to protect. Plus the consequences to you professionally as a teacher. You probably dont think it would ever come to this, but all it would take was a few of the workers to notice frequent marks. The number of cases with abuse going by the name of 'rough and tumble', you wouldnt believe! Sorry to come across so harsh, but i think you and your children deserve better. No one should have to live wary for themselves and their children, and their wishes disrespected.

Hope ur ok Ellie, I think most of us are waiting and watching... thinking of you.

Oops, Just read the rest of the thread, good luck!!

I wish you could grasp that just because his abuse doesn't seem 'intentional' doesn't stop it being abuse or unacceptable. A drunk driver doesn't get into a car hoping they'll mow someone down, but if they do, that person is still dead or injured! As many other people are pointing out he manages to not be cruel and scary to other people so how come he can't control himself around you and DD? It is dominance, plain and simple. He was physically bullied by his brother who saw him as physically weaker and inferior and now he's acting out that pain on 2 people HE sees as weaker and inferior - you and your DD! He needs counselling to sort out these issues.

Although Attila is right about relationship counselling being unhelpful for abusers - my mum is a retired counsellor and has always said how domineering and abusive men twist what is being said to justify their behaviour. Counselling for his personal issues, however, might hold out a glimmer of hope. Frankly, this 'playfighting' stuff suggests that he's currently too damaged to be in any relationship at the moment (or until he gets his 'issues' sorted).

Right, well i've had my chat with DH. I know a lot of posters are going to criticize me for giving him a second chance but i thought i would post an update nevertheless.

I have explained it all to him properly and given him the ultimatum. He didn't cry, he wasn't over the top. He listened to me carefully and said what i knew he was going to say, which was that he never meant to hurt me or DD. I explained that he made me feel like he was taking away my control, and that no matter what he intended, he was continuing to hurt us after i'd told him not to and that was not ok, and in fact tantamount to abuse. He apologised of course, and accepted my ultimatum, and has agreed to try counselling, whether that be personal or as a couple. He was truly shocked by the idea that DD could end up in hospital and we could end up with social services involved, but he did accept that it was really a fairly small step away.

I know some people will tell me that he is telling me what i want to hear and that he is going to do it again, and perhaps those people are right. However, i am as happy as i can be with his reaction to our conversation and i guess time will tell whether he is going to step up and try to change or not... If not then he is out.

Oh, and just to clarify Atilla, he has never hit me or DD. It is martial art stuff, wrestling holds, chokes, things like that. If he'd hit either of us he'd be gone already.

Well, I think that's a fair thing to do. Let's see what happens now.