SUPPORT THREAD FOR PARTNERS OF ADDICTS - PART 2

[ginnny]

I thought I'd start us a new thread since the old one was going strong for over a year and I know a lot of people find it helpful.
DP did go on a bender Monday and Tuesday, which although I wasn't happy about, I understood why. He is lost and can't cope with the grief of losing his Mum.
Since then though he's been great, so once the funeral is over I'm hoping we can put it behind us and get back to normal.
I've suggested bereavement counselling, but he's not convinced.

I hope you all don't mind me butting in. I am currently married to a man with major alcohol issues though not sure he is technically an alcoholic. We have two small kids. There is a long thread here about it - I've told him I want us to separate and he seems happy to go along with this. My agonising continues though as I worry about the impact on the kids etc etc etc I don't know what advice I am after really, but any insights or comments on my situation from people who have been on similar situations would be most appreciated

ps LUDOG - I am so sorry about your friend, I hope you and your family get through it all ok

Notsobored

Re-read all your previous thread again; you were given some great counsel on there and you need to take heed.

And after all that he has put you through you are still asking?. He has done nothing to hold this "relationship" of yours together, you have done all the work. From what you write he has long standing alcohol problems. He is NOT your responsibility.

Look at your children; your home is broken already. Look at your 7 year old properly. You have a choice ultimately, your children do not. Children who grow up with an alcoholic parent in their midst do become damaged by the experience (they can become super responsible for the alcoholic parent and could even choose alcoholic partners themselves). It is certainly not a legacy you want to leave them.

Hi Ladies, I don't quite belong here as it is my DM who is an alcoholic but having had a quick look at today's posts just wanted to quickly add to advice to Notsobored.

I'm an adult child (in my 30s) and my mum has had a problem all of my life and my parents divorced when I was 4. I'm sure the divorce must have had some impact but nothing as compared to the misery of witnessing my DMs behaviour over the years. I like many others am still struggling to deal with it and the impact it has on all of our lives (see yesterdays thread - At wits end dealing with alcoholism). Please put yourself and your children first.

Notsobored, I replied on your other thread but I just wanted to reiterate the effects that alcoholism can have on children. My alcoholic ex comes from a family of four children where at least one of the parents had long-standing alcohol problems. Two of the children (including my ex) are self-confessed alcoholics, one has long-standing alcohol problems but I don't know enough to say whether it's alcoholism, and the last is married to someone with long-standing alcohol issues.

Also, my own father's an alcoholic and I ended up in a relationship with an alcoholic. I don't believe that to be coincidence.

thank you all for writing

he keeps saying he doesn't have an alcohol problem and that I am making it into a bigger deal than it actually is. I tell him that denial is one of the symptoms of alcohol dependency but he just shrugs it off. Problem is I don't know who is right. Am I just making a mountain out of a molehill? He rarely gets roaring drunk, never violent, can be a bit unpleasant after a number of drinks if I say something he doesn't agree with but nothing major. Today he told me he is and has always been melancholic, he has a touch of depression he feels, maybe manic depression he reckons first I've heard of that, and that he drinks to help him get through it all. But it is not a problem. He feels that, except during the summer when he doesn't have to work, he just drinks a normal amount. Cited to me the fact that since Saturday he has only had 3 pints a night. Nothing wrong with that he says. On friday however he had about 3 large vodkas, lots of bubbly, lots of wine and 4 or 5 armagnacs (we hosted friends for dinner - there were two other big drinkers there, one of whom is his brother). He maintains I have just gone onto a more "affirmative" "enlightened" path since having kids and opening up a bit more to my sort of spiritual (feel weird even writing that!) side. I have gone from being a heavy drinker myself to more or less giving up booze (will still have odd glass of wine, maybe twice a week but no more). I think he thinks I am overeacting to his drinking and trying to make out that is the problem in the relationship, rather than the fact that I have changed. I am so confused about it all. He continues to maintain that my timing of the separation suggestion has made it impossible for him to react. I am at wits end. Am I overreacting? How can I possibly know.

Notsobored

The more he says he does not have an alcohol problem the more I am thinking that he actually does. But he is not your responsibility ultimately.

I think you're right and he's just doing his usual denial of the problem again (he likely also badly underestimates how much he is drinking per week and he is unable to go without drinking alcohol for any real length of time. Alcohol also acts as a depressant and it sounds like he is self medicating). All his talk about the separation making him unable to think is excuse and bull frankly and is projecting. He is still NOT taking any responsibility for his actions and is still blaming you for it all.

You've been with him for a long time and things have not changed; infact things have got worse over the years for you all and now there are children as well as you to consider. What are you both teaching them here about relationships?.

Put them and you first now. Speak to Al-anon for you and get support from them as well. I do not say this lightly but I feel the only way you and your children will be happier is to legally separate. I do not write this at all lightly.

Ludog - I am so sorry to hear your news. I hope that you all manage to stay strong.

NotSo - I have divorced my alcoholic H because mine & DD's lives were becoming a living nightmare.

I would say that you need to start detaching from his behaviour and fast - because you need some vital head space before making any major decisions.

When you are in this continual cycle of mad behaviour (eminating from living with active alcoholism) you become as sick as them. Your reactions lead to threats that you will never carry out (one more drink and we're through etc etc), or behaviours that punish him (silence/manipulative behaviours).

When you are living in the madness, there is no way you can make logical sensible decisions. You need to start focusing on yourself and your DC's, and once you have stepped back from it all, only then should you start making decisions about the future. You can't fix him - you can't be responsible for him.

I read your other thread and saw lots of really good advice about you going out and getting your life back. Once you start doing this, your children will benefit as you'll feel so much better.

If you have read back through this thread, you'll see that Al Anon has been suggested - you should look them up and you'll find that there are many people in exactly the same situation as yourself. It helped me to make rational decisions that ultimately I was informed enough to make. CAT me if you want any further info.

You have to start looking after You. Your children don't have a choice in this situation but you do.

I can't tell you how fabulous life is now - DD does still see her daddy (he has moved back in with his parents) - but she is a well adjusted and balanced child who understands that her daddy has an illness that made him behave the way he did.

Sorry, crossed posts with you Atilla! How are you?

Hope everyone else is ok. Calling Ready?

Hi Notsobored... (like the positive name change
I just read your thread and just wanted to say that he is showing classic signs of alcoholism the biggest one being complete denial.
You have done the right thing for all of you by separating from him this way. You must stick to it though or you will lose all credibility. By doing this you are forcing him to take responsibility for his actions, and he will try and twist things round so that you feel guilty/in the wrong, but remember that is just a tactic to stop him having to face up to the fact that the problem is with him.
Read the link on here about detachment, his drinking is his problem, you can't stop him doing it, all you can do is look after yourself and your dc.
I am another one who grew up with an alcoholic father and ended up with one myself and a whole bag of other problems too. My fathers brother was an aloholic and his son (my cousin) drank himself to death at the age of 35.
Ready - hope you are lurking and doing OK x

thank you all again

meerkat - thanks for being so frank - in moments of clarity that is exactly how I feel too but I find the moments of clarity hard to hang onto when faced with his reasonableness

and snorbs and ginny thanks for sharing the effects of alcoholic parents you have experienced. Again you see I get stumped on not knowing whether he is or isn't. But I guess I should just accept the fact that he most certainly hasn't got ahealthy relationship with booze, or his own internal emotions anyway. Whether it constitutes full blwon alcoholism is open to interpretation I guess.

I am wondering whether to call his mum and have a chat with her. She has been like second mum to me since I met her but I am not sure what good it could do. It's not like she can (or anyone) can force him to do anything and he will probbaly just get annoyed at me burdening her as he sees it unecessarily. They are not the most emotionally open/expert family anyway (who is?!)

secretsquirrel - thanks for sharing your experiences. I am glad your life sounds so much happier now. I am not sure if I can CAT, I'll try.

Do Al anon have a helpline I could phone for advice, an ear? I was due to go and see my counsellor today but she had to cancel at last minute and I am feeling a bit adrift. Finding it very hard to concentrate on work etc

OK, let's assume for the moment that he's not got any kind of alcohol addiction or unmanageable compulsion to drink. Let's assume he's got a perfectly "normal", take-it-or-leave-it approach to booze. Does that assumption improve the situation to any degree?

He knows that his drinking is causing massive problems in his relationship with you and is making you desperately unhappy. So if he's not got a drink problem and he's just drinking like this wilfully and in the full and conscious knowledge of the problems it causes; he just doesn't care. Looked at that way one could almost argue it would be better if he were a self-confessed alcoholic...

One piece of advice I got that was eye-opening to me was to try to ignore what a (suspected) alcoholic says about their drinking. Instead, pay attention to what they do. He had a major session on Friday and followed it up by drinking every day and drinking more than is considered wise on each of those days. And this is by no means a one-off, it's simply the latest part of a repeating pattern.

Given the cold hard reality of how much and how often he's drinking it's clear he's got a drink problem of some description. What his actions are showing you is that he knows his drinking causes problems in his relationship yet he fully intends to continue drinking. Call it alcoholism, drunkenness, piss-artistry, selfishness or being a lush; the name you choose doesn't matter and is irrelevant to what he's doing.

I have been lurking on the boards and posting a little, mainly due to looking at answers for my own problems. I guess we all did this for a while as you are looking at the possibility that this is your fault. Notsobored; my OH denies being an alcholic also and if I mention that I wont discuss anything or argue when he has had a drink he will just say 'it is always my excuse' and 'I had to throw that one in'. He denies it even though he will start drinking at lunchtime and then carry on until 12 at night. Sometimes he guzzles and sometimes he has a leisurely drink. We met when I was going thru a bad patch and I too enjoyed a drink - 'what the heck' I thought, it made me feel better. That stopped many years ago and Im an occasional one like you as I realised how it was effecting me, but I look at it as a blip in my life. He too uses the excuse, just because I dont do it anymore that has made me holyier that thou. Funny isnt it they come out with the same stuff??

Nobody likes the label "alcoholic" as it conjures up images of trampy old men drinking cider on a park bench. But the truth is, that an alcoholic is someone who depends on drink to function, or who continues to drink despite the negative effects it has on their family, health etc.
I denied my DP was an alcoholic for years as he managed to work, didn't drink every day etc, but he was a functioning alcoholic, which so many of them are. Don't be fooled and as Snorbs says, whatever you want to call it, it amounts to the same problem at the end of the day.
Here is a link to Al Anon

Notso - you can call AlAnon on 0207 403 0888 between 10-4 and there is a helpline as well outside these hours.

thank you all, it is so helpful to hear other perspectives on the same sort of drinking - he can almost convince me it's normal, but I know it's not. The level of dependance to function is so high. he told me yesterday that he drinks to cope with life, sometimes he finds himself going into a black hole so then he stops for a day or so which seems to help and then continues. I do know he stops sometims for about that, a day, upon which he is hugely grumpy and retreats to bed as early as he can as he can't face the reality of a night without booze. Sadly those were about the only nights he was interested in intimacy, unless it was really bad in which case he would just lie in bed saying "I just need this day to be over" (in fact that was usually his excuse for resisting my advances, back when I used to make any)

I hope you don't mind me coming on this thread. You've been a great help to me and I will read and re-read your words every time I waver. As I always do having been with him so long and still liking him so much outside of all of this.

Hi Notso, to CAT you click on to 'my mumsnet' on the top toolbar, then once you are on the page, scroll down to the bottom and click on to 'contact a member'.

Just because you are going to start focusing on yourself, it doesn't mean that you have to stop caring about (& liking) him. It's just that we are all at the end of a very long food chain....we just are'nt used to putting ourselves first!!

HI everyone
Thanks Ginny and SS for the kind words last week. It was a difficult, emotional week for us all but we got through it and dh didn't drink. He is very, very sad at the loss of his friend but he seems to be coping. I suppose I will always worry (even at an unconscious level) that these sort of situations will cause him to relapse. He did a reading at L's funeral and I was so proud of him. You know, he was just the way Notso and Ilovechristmas describe their dps when he was drinking. The difference in him with 16 months sobriety under his belt is astounding. Give Alanon a try and see how you get on, don't make any rash decisions for six months or so (unless you are in some physical danger). I can't believe how different our lives are now. The madness and unmanageability I lived with before Alanon was unreal and I almost had a breakdown from the pressure of trying to control everything. good luck to all the newbies, with support you can get through anything!

hello again all

ludog your story of your DP is inspirational. I doubt mine would ever (want to) remain sober for even 6 months.

last week he announced to me on about Thursday I think that he'd had an idea and it was that maybe, just maybe, he'd try to stop drinking, or maybe drink less, with absolutely no outside intervention and with only himself as adjucticator/moderator and that there was absolutely no way he was starting until Sunday. Made me laugh. In the olden days I would have totally engaged with this, tried to egg him on, tried to support him, ended up upset when he didn't do it etc etc etc. This time I just said it sounded like that would be good for him and left it there. Of course he drank a full bottle of wine and more each of the following two nights (which rather worryingly seems to have no observable effect on him now) and went to the pub on Monday where apparantly he got the barman to mix some alcohol free beer with regular beer into a pint for him then last night he went on pub crawl with his brother. No idea how much to drink - he seemed fine this am but amvery sure he wasn't out in pubs with his bro drinking shandies, or lemonade. I didn't mention anything about it and am glad I managed not to.

As I see it we need to separate officially. He seems very happy with status quo just now,up in the spare room. TBH it's odd, we seem to have become separate SO EASILY it makes me wonder why I was expending all that energy for so long trying to pretend any different. we are in our separate rooms,do our separate things with kids at weekends, eat together sometimes, everything very civil and pleasant. Weird. Suppose things might get messy when one of us (me of course given that he is about as proactive as a dead sloth) mentions again the need to actually physically get separate places. Am not doing it rght now as situation (financial and shared childcare wise) suits me right now. But am sure a time will come.

Am not sure I need to go to al-anon right now, but thanks for all teh info. I feel pretty sure we need to split. I can't shoulder it all myself anymore and I can't help him if he refuses to really try himself (am feeling quite sane,clearheaded and strong today obviously - wait til I hit a weak moment)

My DD1's behavior is becoming every more volatile. She is a sensitive girl and so I reckon she must be picking up soem vibes (altho honestly there are far fewer harsh words between us these days than ever before) so I guess we need to talk to her and her sister soon. Am quite dreading that.

Squirrel I still can't figure out CAT. Can you email me? I'm on m s p b r i t t l e (no spaces) at gmail dot com

Have done so, Notso!

ILoveChristmas - guess what? The mad behaviours make them all one and the same person

NotSo, well done for not engaging with the vague "I'm going to stop drinking! Well, cut down, anyway. But not right now..." crap.

It does sound like you are somewhat in limbo; your relationship seems all but dead yet you continue to live together. Of course it's your right to move at the pace you are comfortable with, but I do wonder if it would help get your attention off him and onto you if you got some physical distance from him. What would be the next step from here?

thanks snorbs - yes I am beginning to think you are right. I am still too focused on him, and he isn't even thinking about the situation at all as far as I can see. Floating about happy as they come. Asked today if I am happy enough to "mosey on like this" for the foreseeable. I didn't really know what to say.
I had an initial meeting with a psychodynamic therapist today and it was interesting, he said that DH sounds extremely detached (SO right) but also that it seemed I wasn't facing the situation as real.Once he said this I realised that perhaps that I wasn't prepared to face it all as "real" as I am petrified of telling the kids and the effect on them. I had told teh therapist about the fact that DD1s behaviour has been extremely volatile of late and interestingly enough his take was that it sounds like the only one who is accepting it as real is the one we are trying to conceal it all from. ie DD1. I'm pretty sure whatever she is picking up is all subconscious as conversation turned to divorced parents at teatime tonight and she didn't say anything.

Oh god. What a mess.

thanks for email secretsquirrel

you lot are a brilliant support. I am so grateful

It's astonishing what children can pick up when you think they are oblivious.

The reason I asked about the next step is that when I was splitting up with my alcoholic ex, whenever I sat down and thought about the whole situation I ended up almost paralysed with dread. It was too much, too big, too all-encompassing. What was easier for me was to just think "what's the next step". I didn't necessarily take that next step immediately - sometimes I needed a break for a while to regroup - but I did have it as something to aim at.

yep, "paralysed with dread" I can identify with that one

obvious next step is to split our finances which have always been joint

I can probably bring myself to do this in next week or two

Well done Notso.
Your dd will cope, children are more resilient than we give them credit for .
She is probably behaving this way because she is frustrated. She knows something is wrong but nobody is telling her what.
Like Snorbs said, take it one step at a time and don't be railroaded into staying this way by him. He is probably thinking this is great - he gets to live in the house with you and the dc, doing as he pleases and drinking as much as he likes while still getting his pants washed and dinner cooked for him. Every alcoholics dream!!!

Re every alcoholics dream ? a domestic slave that does not interfere with their drinking... Of course, one option to open to emphasise what separate lives mean under the same roof is to stop doing chores for him. I had the most horrendous two months at the beginning of the year doing exactly that: no cooking for him, no tidying his mess, no cleaning his clothes, no ironing, nothing. I wanted him gone or in treatment and he was not going or acknowledging there was a problem. I don?t know to which extent the lack of clean undies helped him see the light ? still dry since March, still working the Steps, still attending meetings (with very clean socks nowadays, I must add, and he helps oodles with the cooking, as I work full-time!).