I told DH I wanted to learn BURLESQUE dancing and didn't get the reply I wanted!

[Dragonbrandybutter]

I found a class locally.
A one day workshop.
I thought it would be a giggle.
And i'd like to know how to do that tassles thing

Anyway, he said, 'have you finally lost your mind?, that's for old women with self esteem issues'

i told him not to be so negative and that I would have preferred him to be a little excited about it.
we haven't talked about it again.

but i still want to do it.
now what?

DBB, I am really sorry to have hurt your feelings so much. I thought I was being funny but I do totally take the point that threads about threads are low. Anyway, for what it's now worth, I think you should go ahead and do the workshop. and of course it goes without saying that if you and your husband get a kick out of what you learn then that's absolutely great.

I can't see how flaunting your body in a fun way to your own DH should be degrading?? I've always thought of myself as a child of feminism- I have a good career, am pretty independant, can do anything DH can do etc. I didn't realise that unless I was lying in bed with my teeth gritted, thinking of England beneath my flanelette nightie that I was betraying the cause?

Some women enjoy and celebrate their sexuality- I think that's great! DB, I say go for it! Have fun, be confident, enjoy it!

But lots of women enjoy and celebrate their sexuality, joolyjoo.

Because someone isn;t a cheerleader for the sexual-display stuff that women have historically been paid to do, rather than just choosing to do for the hell of it, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are frigid. .

Personally I do feel that the passage of time makes 1940s burlesque something that can be approached with irony for .. ahem.. personal pleasure. But I'd still be pretty damn wary. And it's only because my DP is a paid up Femi nazi nist.

These things are much more meaning-laden than is generally acknowledged, I think.

Hmm- maybe there are historical reasons why it might have been a bad thing, but I think today the implications may have changed, due to the fact that the background has shifted?

I don't think, and have never thought of ANY other woman as frigid- everyone's sexuality is different, and who cares how a couple who are in an equal and loving relationship get their jollies? As I undestood it, it WAS something that DB chose to do- certainly not something her DH is making her do, or indeed paying her to do. So why is it degrading?

Well, when you said "Some women enjoy and celebrate their sexuality", you implied that those who don't do what the OP wants to do aren't celebrating their sexuality. IE. that women who don't perform aren't enjoying, or 'celebrating' (what a pile of shite word that is) their sexuality.

"I think today the implications may have changed, due to the fact that the background has shifted?"

I'd probably deny that the background has shifted as much as you think it has.

Hugely entrenched power-relationships, which that between men and women has historically been, don't disappear overnight. We should be wary of anything which treads over that same ground, and asks us to believe that it is not about power.

Was going to leave this thread alone, but ...

Onebat - I agree that the power structure (especially the 9/10 of it which remains hidden, iceberg-like) is important, but I do believe that if a woman is making an informed decision to learn burlesque because it will make her feel more confident/uninhibited or just different in the bedroom, then that might (just might) be about reclaiming some of that power.

My take on this is a modified version of Hamlet's 'nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so'. I think it's about context and meaning. You mentioned today that these behaviours are on a continuum. I agree. At one end of the continuum are behaviours or actions which are always, inherently good. At the other are behaviours or actions which are always, inherently bad. In the middle are things which are ambiguous, with the potential to be good or bad according to their context and (I believe) their meaning to the actor. I'd put Burlesque in that middle ground. If the choice is freely made - and if this is a private behaviour within the home and one which the dancer enjoys - then I think all those things shift it towards the benign end of the continuum. But I also think that meaning is not immutable but is mediated by one's own experiences, so can quite see that others may see all this differently.

See, I may be deluding myself (and having never danced in a "burlesque" fashion, I'm maybe not in a position to comment informatively), but I imagine that if I wanted to dance like this, and it was all my idea, I would tend to feel that I was the one in control of the situation. My feeling is that unless you are in a relationship where there is a question over "power" (which I'd like to think I would never be in anyway), then I really can't see that your partner is suddenly going to get the idea he is somehow dominant, just from a sexy dance/ way of dressing, that was entirely your own choice. Truth be told, I did try "dressing up" for an ex once, and the poor boy was terrified- actually backed away , so it was hard to feel like I was being used and abused!

I do appreciate that in some relationships the man has the "power"- but to me, these are dysfunctional, and I doubt the women living with these kind of men would dare go out and learn to dance anyway. I honestly never analyse the "power" ratio in my marriage- I don't feel I need to. And I honestly don't think that for a woman who wants to do this for her own pleasure (and ok maybe her partner's too, but primarily for herself) it ISN'T about power, but about pleasure. I get wildly turned on by the idea that I am being lusted after by my DH

I think if you wanted to look at any kind of sexual behaviour you could tie yourself in knots trying to work out if many practices were deeply entrenched in a male/ female dominance at some point. Which might be limiting!

Jooly - Yes. I think what I was trying to say is that sometimes (in my view) the personal stops being political and is just, well, personal.

Bocca- You put it so much more eloquently than me!

Another thought- throughout history, men have paid for sex itself- does that make the sex act is something only men can enjoy?

Jooly - Hmm. I thought I was just a pretentious windbag!

I do, though, understand that the argument about reclaiming the power can be a difficult one and there is a thin line (I think) dividing things which can reasonably be described as reclaiming the power from those which are just sexism and exploitation in a new guise. I would put burlesque in one category and phone sex lines in the other. Others, I know, wouldn't.

But I do believe that we need to find ways of genuinely reclaiming the power. Otherwise, we are left with the status quo.

Oh I'd read anything me, twinset! Even some posters here

The DM hasn't got a lot of cachet with you then!! LOL
I just thought the pics were lovely reminds me of me yoof, or summat.

Hello QS!

Agree with Onebat, its that this was an ironic thing( like when Paula Yates first wore a "little miss naughty" t shirt)

The irony is utterly lost. its not ironic, for many it is how to get a head as a woman.

The points here are very interesting but all I can think is that being a feminist sounds very dull indeed.
Do you really think of all that politics when you're intimate with your husband? It must be so distracting.

It's one thing to think of how women have been treated throughout history and to generalize, yes for some this may be degrading especially if it wasn't their idea, and quite another to think how 'I' feel about being a woman, what I personally want to do for fun.
For me personally, there is no undercurrent, there is no oppression, just a wiggle of the hips and a for FUN!

As for the accusations that anyone who would want to do burlesque is fat, old, ugly, brainless and a disgrace to womankind, I suggest you open your minds to some less prejudice ideas. What do you want, certificates on my profile page, measurements, and IQ score? Lighten up.

Mumsnet have deleted the other thread which was unfair. I'd like to remind posters to think carefully before they post insults or moronic comments such as, 'your husband will leave you for someone with a brain cell'. Please remember that mumsnetters are real people living in circmstances which you may know nothing about. Your comments may be the straw that breaks the dragons back.

I'm off now.

If you know me, CAT me to msn or facebook.

Bye for now. DBx

DBB - I can't CAT or FB you, so all the best.