Female friendships- how too make them work?

[poshsinglemum]

Don't get me wrong. I love my girlfriends- I really do and consider myself very much a girl's girl. Why is it then that I feel that many of my friendships with women are marred by competition, jealousy and bitchyness? Mine aswell as theirs'?
There are a lot of wondreful things about friendship with other women (I am closer to some of these friends than I have ever been with a man.)How then to strengthen the good things?
Or am I being a bitch by encouraging this discussion?

last night a neighbour came around for a quick drink, and then she started to give me the benefit of her opinion on my character flaws.... - as I said, I don't have the luxury of choosing my friends as we are all thrown together and have to make the best of it. I sat there for a minute and then said ' yes, you're quite right, I am impulsive and make rash decisions, but do you know what, none of us are perfect and I am who I am, warts and all, and isn't part of growing older learning to accept people for who they are and not placing more importantce on, for example, my faults than the fact that I am always here for you, never turn you away when you need help and am a very loyal and generous friend?' she back pedalled a lot. (especially as she was in my house drinking my wine..) I hope that may help in your situation too.

MLTN - your neighbour's behaviour sounds rather inappropriate and ungracious, but at least she was prepared to say these things to your face. It is so much more annoying to have 'yes-friends' who nod and smile then go away and bitch behind your back.

i agree with both mltn and mrs sean bean. i think i am a bit of a yes friend which i don't like really. i spose if i am such a person i shouldnt moan if they feel free to be out of order. mabe it gives them a licence to be mean. sometimes though i don't want people to know im upset.

ive noticed that since becoming a mum i myself have become more judgey. its like starting a new job and having to proove myself to the motherhood club or succesfully completing an initiation ceremony. Ok, I know that's really sad but welcome to my world. I often feel that I am happiest just dd and i at home so that we can be ourselves and that if I am not parenting perfectly there is noone to judge me in return! I don't think taht I will give up my mumsgroups though as I genuinely do like the ladies I have met there.
I think that also mabe there's an element of 'It takes a whole village to raise a child' mentality so taht some mums feel it necessary to tut tut others if they parent in a way that they feel is damaging.
I do think that the sheer identity adjustment that takes place after having a baby is also important. We all want validating that we are doing well at our new role and this leads to insecurity etc. Esp. mabe with first.
For me being a single mum has been hard to come to terms with as I have it ingrained in me by teh media that somehow this is an immoral setup and that I have dd because I can't be bothered to work and want benefits. Rubbish, I know but it makes me enourmously insecure. Ive been grieving my perfect little family but I am loving dd and everything about her so joyful too.

Hi PSM. I didn't mean in my post that you were the type to nod, smile and bitch behind someone's back. I think discussing it here is a different matter as you sound like you have a genuine concern and are looking for advice, not just gratuitously being negative iyswim.

M&T groups can be a bit cliquey and make you feel inadequate. But I'm sure there are always other people looking at one and thinking 'wow she's coping really well, I wish I was'.

I tend to 'dip into' M&T groups but not get involved. I go for ds' sake because he enjoys it.
I don't see it as a social occasion for me really, though if you meet a like-minded person that's a bonus.

I often felt when I was a new mum that there is the danger of being forced into becoming 'friends' with some random person just because you happened to have the 'baby' thing in common, but this is nonsense. Why should one suddenly feel they have to fit in with other new mums and define the,selves solely as a mum?

It's a bit like saying that if you have just moved house you can only be friendly to other people who have just moved house. I know having a baby is a life changing event, but if you get too immersed, that's when you can start to feel you have lost your identity.

It's good to talk baby sometimes of course, I guess that may have been the whole point of MN! But also try to look at things from the other angle on occasion - ie. "I am an artist who has a baby, therefore I associate with other artists." This is just a random example and not a very good one.

But what I'm trying to say is: don't lose sight entirely of who you were and what you liked pre-baby. And don't feel that you have to fit into M&T groups just because you are another Mum with Toddler.

hi msb,
i understand what you mean entirely. i tend to go to mumsgroups every other week rather than weekly to keep things fresh. i think that im lucky in the way that i live near my extended family. a lot of us mums grew up here so its not too bad.
When Obama became president i was so excited because history was made; I went to a meet the next day hoping that people would want to talk about it. No-one even mentioned it- everyone was talking about puree and weaning. Made me realise that there has
to be a bit of life outside baby, baby, baby.

What exactly passive aggression btw? Is it when someone can't be directly confrontational but uses backhanded remarks etc to gain power over the other? I'm confused. Am I passive aggressive in my reluctance to confront friend.

Read about a brilliant term 'frenemies' in magazine. A cross between an enemy and friend. Sometimes I feel I have a frenemy rather than a friend. How tragic is that?!

Oh gosh, I think I have those, I usually refer to them as aquaintances, although happy to report some have crossed over to the other side.

Btw I don't think not confronting someone is passive aggressive, as long as you are not secretly haboring resentment or behaving differently.

Thanks nancy. I feel a bit better now. I might actually say to my mate that I find it hard when we compare labours and that it's not going to enhance our labour. I think she feels more woman than me or something.

Can anybody tell me- What would you do if you were single and one of your closest mates went out with an ex boyfriend who you really liked? Would you be mad? Would you end the friendship? Would you be happy for them? I for one found it very awkward and now I can't trust said friend. She must be thinking- I can treat my friend how I want and she'll stay loyal to me. Is going out with a mates ex breaching the unwritten friendship code or am I really bbeing oversensitive. Noone has given me feedback on this one so advice would be much apprechiated!

sorry bout typing errors.

going out with an ex - hmmm - i think it happens a fair bit weirdly as they tend to be the people you get on with

my first bf i went out with for 5 years he then married my mate! it was weird at the time but they were much better suited obviously. we grew apart for many other reasons but i dont think i was actually cross with them because i knew i wouldnt have been with him forever

if your relationship with the bloke was over then i think it is fair play for him to go out with someone else - and it is quite likely to be someone in your shared circle - logically i mean

your girlfriend is not going out with your ex now is she? i think i would find that weird as how could you ever talk about them? if its all in the past, then leave it there

that's true. She's with another friend's ex.But I do know what you mean by shared circle it happens a lot. I think that if im truly over said ex it's fine. If not, then I feel very awkward. I don't own my ex's so fair's fair.

I've done it!
I sent a message to my friend by e-mail as I am too cowardly to pick up the phone and I told her that the remark she made about giving birth made me feel inadequate etc. etc. I also said taht I was afraid that we would become competetive and I told heer that I wanted to be honest as I valued the friendship. I said that I am rubbish at speaking to people about things in person. Did I do the right thing? I'm worried about her reaction.

as long as she is not feeling too tired and hormonal it should be fine - if she is... eek

Hi poshsinglemum

I indetify with a lot of what you are saying. I am also a single mum, and possibly could be considered posh! I have a lot of "frenemies" (there is a sex and the city episode about that too which is vg)

For example the girls that I met at uni are all what Bridget Jones would refer to as "smug marrieds" and are appaled by my single state. They often make very tactless comments but I think that a lot of it is unintentional.

I have alos felt that there is an undercurrent of competition, for example one of the uni frenemies told me that one of the others had asked her how much a paid for my house. I find that really odd - if she was keen to know she could ask me - what I don;t get is why it is of any interest to her as her and her husbands house is probably worth five times what I paid for mine so if it is a competition she had won fair and square so why ask?

In terms of going out with an ex-boyf that is a tricky one. I went out with one of my frenemies ex's several years ago now, she had gone out with him at uni and was now married. I went out with him a few times (he actually treated me really badly but that's not relevant) and she still makes comments about it now YEARS later. I had no idea that it would cause an issue and it I had know I would not have gone out with him, I assumed as it was so long ago and as she was happily married it was fine. I've had so few boyfriends that I think fondly off that I didn;t get that it would not be nice to go out with a friend's ex. My friends are welcome to my ex's (not that any of them would touch them with a long pole!)

didnt get much passed the beginning of this thread...well i got to the bit where someone is telling you what positions their partner holds them in bed...

well my eyes are welling up with tears of laughter...can she not contribute anything else to a conversation? what was going through her mind?...JEEEZ..how completely and utterly SELF OBSESSED..'and sometimes we swap sides'...i am snorting...unbelievable.

oh and importantly...your baby is still pretty little,you toughen up a bit when they get older...you are still vulnerable to this mumzilla nonsense...a bit like being a first year (not patronising you...those first months were tough at times)

going to go back and snort at the other mumzilla crimes now

Hi there you two.
Curlygal- I just hate it when smug marrieds try and compete with em. I mean why bother? Thay have more support, more money, more social status etc etc etc but tbh I don't think that they could do what I do alone and stay so upbeat so I guess I feel proud of myself. Besides all those people who are 'appauled' at your state should be ashamed as it could happen to them. Mabe they are jealous that we cope so welll in such difficult circumstances? Ive had a lot of support from that point of view tbh but I sometimes worry if I am being pitied because I don't want to be at all.

Hi beans,
I agree- it is like being a first year and the new kid at school! Everyone is desperate to proove themselves- myself included. It creates havoc. I do attachment parenting but I often compare myself with Gina Ford devotees and think- hmm , mabe I'm making a rod and they are doing it better and vice versa. Comparisons are inevitable becaus eeveryone is desperately stabbing around in the dark and wondering why their baby didn't come with an instruction manual. I think that the parenting philosophy manuals contribute to competetive parenting but that's been addressed on a different thread I know. Does my head in.
I remember being really worried that the midwives and HV would think I'm a hopeless mum and now I worry that other mums think I'm a hopeless mum. I feel judged. the other day I went into a shop and the woman behind the counter told me that dd's hat was covering her eyes and that she would not be able to see if she woke up. It was -2 outside and tha hat had slippe ddown. i guess it takes a whole village to raise a child so I'd better get used to this. sigh.

PS: I am appauled that your frenemy asked you how much your house cost. How very rude!

P.S; I'm not that bitter about mums who are married as most of mum friends are and never make me feel bad for being alone. It's only when I feel that it's rubbed in my face or when someone is tring to compete with me unfairly.
I myself am beginning to wonder if I'm the marrying type. If it was a happy marriage then it would be wondeful but I have so little self confidence in my ability to choose the right men and form a decent relationship right now that I just can't imagine it. I was with someone for five years when I was in my early 20's but he was so controlling he ripped my life to shreds. I am far happier now than I was in that relationship so at least I know that a relationship isn't the answer to all my woes. That'a a subject for another thread I feel.

I think half the problem with my situation is that Ive gone from hanging around with free, single girls on the party scene to hanging around with married women who are much more settled. I don't quite know where I fit and tbh I feel like a scapegoat for society's ills thanks to the media's portrayal as a single mum. I feel like a bit of a joke.
I was dumped by my partner when I was pregnant as it was unplanned but not unwelcome. Financially I was not ready for a child but spiritually I was more than ready if that makes sense. I just feel like everyone else's child was planned and saved for after sensible ladies got married to lovely, sensible men, put money aside, chose the kid's private schools etc etc. I just feel like I've done it in the wrong order. However, dd is the light of my life, I wouldn't change her and I sometimes feel very blessed that we are going fowards and moving onwards and upwards together. Like a team I guess .

I think that jealousy and competiveness are natural. I think prehaps it is a case of managing this and not showing that you are green eyed and letting your friend's jealousy go over your head, not playing in to it etc. Easier said than done!

I have actually made a descion recently to not be negative about my kids to 'friends' or anyone (as I find myself trying to make sure that I was'nt being competitive by playing down my kids ) I have a particular (sp?) who seems to revel in this - I think as it makes her feel better. BTW - I love this friend but feel that things have got to change and if that means going our own way than so be it!

Hi nbm.
Jealousy and competetiveness are indeed natuaral and I plead guilty to both. Mabe if I was more careful in my relationships then I would have the 'perfect' man and family that I long for. However when it comes to dd - she is perfect in my eyes and I shall have great fun bragging about her to all my mummy friends Being a complete hypocrit, I despise these attributes in anyone else!

i think that i know that competetiveness is natural and actually quite healthy. jealousy is the killer of relationships though. I think that being emotionally generous destroys jealousy. i am more likely to be jealous of those who have been unkind to me.

on a different vein; one of my friends has a dd who is slightly older than mine and who dosnt know her own strength. she always lets her go for my dd's face and eyes without intervening. im going to confront her about this because it's upsetting me.

hypocrite

Another mum handed my dd a sugary biscuet without my consent when we were in a cafe as I am doing blw. Is it just me or should she have asked my consent first? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE WOMEN????????!!!!!!!!!!!!! aaaagggggrrrrhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi PSM

I totally agree with your post of Thurs 8 Jan at 23.14 - that describes exactly how I feel about my situation.